why arent they talking at all about the AI?

[Callahan9119]

the graphics are pretty, they love to point this out....but what about the AI?

6 months till release<rumor> why no talk of the AI?

getting annoyed with them talking up the graphics and animations and nothing about improved AI <which is really what any game is about>

[Boohugh]

Mainly because the mass-market seems to be more interested in games looking great instead of playing great. CA also have the problem of having to balance the game so people new to it or people with very little knowledge of tactics (which I'm betting is the vast majority) won't be completely over-run by the AI. Unfortunately this means the game is less challenging and often more frustrating for the more seasoned players who expect AI improvements in every new iteration of the game.

[Callahan9119]

word

[Lentonius]

I think games producers also implement the AI right at the end, at the minute they are simply making the game work properly and looking snazzy

[De' Medici]

The TW series are strategy games, not some FPS, in order to put the graphics above all. I can wait longer than 6 months, because I want to see a whole new game, not RTW with better graphics and the same poor AI. CA must not rush the release of Medieval 2 only for the marketing strategy. The expectations coming from the TW community are are very big.

[Lord Adherbal]

The expectations coming from the TW community are are very big.

they were also big for RTW, and look what we got - certainly not something the overall TW vet appreciated

From the first things I heard and saw of MTW2 I had a good feeling about the game, but after noticing they didn't even fix those rediculous run speeds I just lost all hope. This will be "RTW: The Middle Ages", not MTW with awesome graphics.

[Lentonius]

Well, we dont know about the speeds of the units, after all, it may just be to cram as much action into a small video clip as possible.

[TB666]

6 months till release<rumor> why no talk of the AI?

They have mentioned the AI quite a few times.
Read the previews.
Also they have stated that the game is pretty much complete and all that is left is the AI which is what they are doing now.

[SpencerH]

I'm one of those people who believe that it's virtually impossible to make a tactical AI that will really be challenging. Not that the TW AI couldn't be improved, but that it will never be as challenging (deceptive, cunning, imaginative) as a human. What I find strange about CA is that they dont seem to include large groups of beta testers to pretest game concepts. Maybe thats a misconception on my part but it seems that way to me (and I've helped out on other (non-CA) games. For example, I cant believe many experienced game players were positive about the running/fighting speeds of RTW.

[Furious Mental]

They could at least try.

[NagatsukaShumi]

The reason they aren't talking about the AI is because they very rarely have, infact if you read most previews they won't talk about the AI too often other than the obvious "if fired at with arrows they take cover in woods" for example, this kind of AI discussion is usually presented.

They will not talk to you about fighting and running speeds, this is not something that concerns the mass market but I can pretty much garuntee that CA will have read comments about it all and will be taking it into consideration, they just won't be making press releases about it as it doesn't concern the majority buyer of the TW product nowadays, in a sense TW is a victim of its own sucess in that it has to adapt to survive scrutiny from the casual gamer. If you took away the history experts and TW vets I garuntee there'd still be plenty of sales, we are hardly the largest consumer group here.

[King Ragnar]

Because its gona be poor and not there main selling point, they are looking for people who just love the look of the games and not they gameplay itself im afraid.

[Lord Adherbal]

yeah the "TW vet" might be a small part of the customers group, but who said STW/MTW style gameplay would make them LOSE customers ? I can't believe they turned RTW into a clickfest without any reason. Graphics were RTW's main attraction and selling point, not the uber fast gameplay. In fact no one knew about this uber fast gameplay until the game was released, and most of us were disappointed. So what is the reason for this change ? I thought there was a saying "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".

What I find strange about CA is that they dont seem to include large groups of beta testers to pretest game concepts. Maybe thats a misconception on my part but it seems that way to me (and I've helped out on other (non-CA) games. For example, I cant believe many experienced game players were positive about the running/fighting speeds of RTW.

the fact that v1.0 of the game crashed when more then 30 players joined the MP lobby clearly proves they didn't test much. If you read developer diaries from Ensemble Studios (makers of AoE series) you hear them taking about excessive (MP) testing sessions and teams, and how they find and deal with balance problems. I doubt these kind of test(team)s exist in the TW game's development.

[CBR]

Yeah the community only gets involved when CA is making a patch. We did MP testing for 1.2 patch but mainly for connection/out of sync problems.

Of course for M2TW one player is involved in testing AFAIK.


CBR

[Callahan9119]

They have mentioned the AI quite a few times.
Read the previews.
Also they have stated that the game is pretty much complete and all that is left is the AI which is what they are doing now.

funny...i read through the whole faq and all of the sticky threads on tw.com and previews from major game sites and havent found anything but the usual dopey things like someone said "if you shoot them with arrows they will move to trees"

so from what your saying they are doing a LAST MINUTE job on the AI, if its going to be dropped in 6 months that means they have what? maybe 4 months to work on it? its not like they have some great foundation to work with.

and i dont see why it would be so hard to make a better ai, how about one that doesnt move around behind walls eating arrows, one that stays in formation, doesnt send generals to a quick death, doesnt send slingers charging into my front lines as shock troops, builds better units for its armies and knows how to tech up its buildings

but who needs AI when you have.....drumroll.....CANNON ELEPHANTS

[Dooz]

How bout we just wait and see how the AI actually works before sticking a criticism pole up it's wazoo. Movement speeds and such aren't a big deal at all as they are very easily changed. There are more important assets of the AI to worry about that can't be changed by modders. Hopefully those more major areas will be improved upon and the minor nitpicks can be modded as always.

[Geoffrey S]

One of those videos shows AI slightly better than in RTW, at least right after deployment. Hopefully with a bunch of months left they'll still be working on the AI solidly.

[Callahan9119]

yes, but mods generally dont help much in the mp department...and most of the ai problems have long and dusty roots, as far back as STW...thats why i'm annoyed....all the power of todays systems and the AI has not developed

i'm not bashing...i have bought EVERY TW product thats been released and <except for stw> the day it is released....and i'll buy mtw2...but that doesnt change the fact i am concerned about its development.



to the guy below me, he mentioned MODDING the game speed....and the RTW run speed IS a problem for MP and its hard to get everyone to use the same mod...or in some instances even the same patch

[Dooz]

yes, but mods generally dont help much in the mp department...

But... AI problems don't hinder MP because there is no AI.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Most interesting fact here is, none of us know what CA are doing right now. I heard somebody was concerned with the time CA left to "dedicate to the AI". Put it this way, 4 months of 5/6 working days is PLENTY of time for a skilled group of programmers such as CA to get together and work hard on the AI and sort it out.

The changing of the AI I am pretty certain was to try and cater to the wider market CA were bringing in after TWs sucess, this wider market are the types of gamers who get annoyed when they don't win easily and will drop a game if they think its hard, or takes ages, hence the dumbing down of the AI and the speeding up of the units. I imagine, however, CA have surveyed the communities opinions of RTW and are probably looking at making a much finer balance between the two markets who buy this game.

I think some people need to start having a bit of faith in CA, they created two very good games in STW and MTW and one has suddenly turned them inept in some peoples eyes. I remember playing Metal Gear Solid, the first was amazing but the second was absolutely terrible imo, MGS 3 however was fantastic, what I'm saying is ONE weak link in a fantastic series is no reason to doubt the abilities of the latest release been fantastic.

[Mooks]

If mtw2 is as retarded as rtw turned out to be. Ill permantly turn away from the TW games.

If people want a dumbed down game then they should play on easy...thats why its there , for the game noobs who have practically no micro-management skills (like my little brother for instance). I always play on vh/vh, and in rtw it was never much of a challenge (mtw did present some challenges).

[Lentonius]

Well, for a game producer, to be honest they care about sales more than anything, i mean, who doesnt?

So, logically, for them, CA are gonna present beautiful pics rather than talking about the AI, more people will buy a beautiful looking game than one for its difficulty. The visuals are what lure the buyer in, so thats what they are concentrating on.

[Dooz]

The ideal situation would be essentially two game modes, which are actually different, unlike in RTW; arcade and sim. Of course arcade being for those who, as Nagatsuka mentioned, shy away from "hard" games and prefer an RTW type experience. The sim mode would be for those of us who like more realistic games and such.

Failing that, I think at least the difficulty settings should do more than give the AI better moral and more attack and defense points. Sheesh. I imagine actual better AI could be incorporated into the different difficulty settings instead of arbitrary bonuses.

[SpencerH]

Movement speeds and such aren't a big deal at all as they are very easily changed.

They are not 'easily changed'. They're fixed by the animations (AFAIK). All that can be done is to modify the terrain effect to slow all units proportionally (rather than, for example, preventing the warbands from running for 2 miles at the speed of an olympic sprinter).

[lars573]

Most interesting fact here is, none of us know what CA are doing right now. I heard somebody was concerned with the time CA left to "dedicate to the AI". Put it this way, 4 months of 5/6 working days is PLENTY of time for a skilled group of programmers such as CA to get together and work hard on the AI and sort it out.

The changing of the AI I am pretty certain was to try and cater to the wider market CA were bringing in after TWs sucess, this wider market are the types of gamers who get annoyed when they don't win easily and will drop a game if they think its hard, or takes ages, hence the dumbing down of the AI and the speeding up of the units. I imagine, however, CA have surveyed the communities opinions of RTW and are probably looking at making a much finer balance between the two markets who buy this game.

The guy at the .com who was at CA's stall in the Sega section of E3 said that CA has 2 guys working on the AI, 1 for campagin map AI the other for battlefield AI. But to be fair the kind of coding work that making AI is would really only be a 1 man job. But if AI is all they are both doing then that's several hundred hours for the development of both.

[Callahan9119]

They are not 'easily changed'. They're fixed by the animations (AFAIK). All that can be done is to modify the terrain effect to slow all units proportionally (rather than, for example, preventing the warbands from running for 2 miles at the speed of an olympic sprinter).

yes you can only modify the animations, like you said by changing the terrain values, and if its like rtw it would be easy enough but would probably make the treadmill effect even more noticable due to the improved graphics and animations<if its done the same way>...like i said before its hard to import this to the MP arena as there is hardly ever agreement over which mod is best

yet, really all i want is the difficulty to translate better, like Wonderland said... the ai acts pretty much the same on all levels....upping the difficulty seems to only pad the AI's stats, let the nubsauce players use the easy difficulty

i just get annoyed that they seem to be disregarding and neglecting the player base that has supported them over the years, we all put up with the GOD-AWFUL multiplyer/gamespy issues...and franky i didnt mind the ctd, unable to connect, games dropping to the lobby mid fight and the horrible performance "TTTTTTTTT"....cuz the game was so damn good when u could actually play, especially cuz of all u classy euros

i dont think RTW was a bad game either...just the mp...i modded the unit animations to slow em down and added morale values to all the units and BAM the game is harder...i dont mind them taking creative liberty with history and the goofy head hurlers and roman ninjas...i kinda like them

[IceTorque]

With the berserker type AI from BI. ( fire and forget ) The new feature of units gaining or losing momentum while in melee. ( less predictable out come of battles ) Flanks gaurded by terrain, battle map features. ( much harder to flank ) Not to mention, made in Australia.
One thing is for sure. That is we are all goin to be in for a nice surprise, battles and the battle AI will be like nothing ever seen before in a TW game.

-IceTorque

[Dooz]

I gotta say... I'm feeling optimistic about M2TW. According to them, it's been in the works for 7 years now... meaning RTW was kind of like a "tune-up" for M2TW, a beta in a different historical setting. It sure felt like that. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I do have a feeling M2TW will be a lot better, a lot better than RTW.


Then, logic kicks in - marketing, mainstream consumer wants, money, whole lotta BS, and boom, right back to realistic pessimism. Ah, if only I could be the optimistic unrealist.

[Oaty]

f

and i dont see why it would be so hard to make a better ai, how about one that doesnt move around behind walls eating arrows, one that stays in formation, doesnt send generals to a quick death, doesnt send slingers charging into my front lines as shock troops, builds better units for its armies and knows how to tech up its buildings

That paragraph sums it up where the AI needs the most improvement. To top it off the A.I. can have superior firepower behind thier walls and as soon as you counter-fire, the A.I.'s missile troops will start running around. If they had just stood there returning fire the effect would be devastating.

Anyways all games that I have played always had a loophole somewhere in the A.I. The main concern is to fix the worst of the problems, where the A.I. just sends lambs to the slaughter.

Ptogramming an A.I. to a human level is no way near the future.

[screwtype]

What I'd like to see most is AI armies acting in a co-ordinated manner instead of each unit acting completely independently of the rest. It makes it so easy to beat the AI piecemeal. And there's no sense of a controlling enemy intelligence at all. RTW AI armies basically behaved in a totally random fashion.

All they would really need to do is to program the AI to have half a dozen different battle plans for each of the main situations, ie field attack, field defence, siege attack, siege defence etc., and you would have a game that was entertaining, unpredictable, and challenging. But what are chances we will get something like this?

As far as speculations about M2TW AI, I was initially quite hopeful we were going to see significant improvement in this game. However, the movies we have seen so far are not terribly encouraging. Units still seem to be moving too fast, kill rates still too fast, not much evidence of AI smarts. So I'm beginning to grow cynical again and to think we are going to get RTW with prettier graphics.

However, I'm trying to suspend judgement until I've played the demo.