Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[econ21]

This thread is devoted to in-character communications about the Rome Total Realism Platinum PBM explained here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65972

For all out of character business - including volunteering to join the campaign - please post in the out of character thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65973

This thread should be for Senate business only.

On a personal note, I will post in two strictly separate capacities: as Senate Speaker (which I will preface by SENATE SPEAKER and write in normal type) and as an ordinary participant (which I will preface by the name of my avatar, currently Quintus, and write in italics).

During formal sessions of the Senate (every 10 turns of the game), motions can be proposed. Each motion requires TWO seconders before it can be voted on.

Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.

================================================== ========
SENATE ANNOUNCEMENTS

The Senate is open for the proposal of motions until 6pm UK time Saturday. Voting will then be open for 24 hours.

Motions proposed this session:

Motion 10.1: This house authorizes the First Consul to sell or give away Debeltos upon its capture to any neutral nation.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa

Motion 10.2: This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.3: This house instructs and authorizes the First Consul to seek an alliance with the Seleucid Empire.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa

Motion 10.4: If Byzantium is captured, this house instructs the First Consul to finish off the Greeks by taking also Nicomedia, and authorizes him to give Nicomedia back to the Seleucid Empire (from whom it was taken).
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.5: No attack will be made on a Macedonian city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius, Quintus Libo, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.6: No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.7: Assassins will be sent out to kill Argeos of Pharsalus and will continue to make attempts on his life until he is dead.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Decius Curtius, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.8: No provinces will be conquered except those specified by the previous legislation authorizing expansion to the Danube. This Motion will be void if Rome is attacked by any currently neutral nation.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.9: The Consul must attempt return all Legions to full strength by the end of his term and should prioritize the construction of a paved road network in as many provinces as possible.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo

(Constitutional Amendment) Motion 10.10: If Rome does not share a land border with a hostile nation and no land battle has been fought against that nation in 10 years, the Consul may use RomeSage to lower the difficulty level to Easy only for an instant to allow a ceasefire to be negotiated with this enemy. No other actions of any kind may be taken while the difficulty is lowered and it must be returned to Very Hard immediately after the negotiations are complete.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

(Constitutional Amendment revised) Motion 10.11:
(1) Candidates standing for First Consul can specify whether they wish to serve full terms (5 years) or half terms (2.5 years).
(2) No candidate may serve more than 5 years in any given 15 year period.
(3) First Consuls may delegate powers to pro-Consuls provided that they indicate that is their intention during their candidature (the pro-Consul need not be named).
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius, Numerius Aureolus

Motion 10.12: If Motion 10.10 passes, the Consul will make peace with Carthage on terms that he deems to be honorable to both sides.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.13: Debeltos is to be raided - sacked, then abandoned.
Proposed: Marcellius Aemilius
Seconded: Publius Pansa

Motion 10.14: This motion authorizes the Consul to start actively conquering Iberian lands. This motion authorises a declaration of war on Iberia.
Proposed: Marcellius Aemilius
Seconded: Galerius Vatinius

Motion 10.15: In order to secure the Republic's eastern border, this house instructs the First Consul to completely expel the forces of Ptolemy from Thrace, and to capture Byzantium. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on the Ptolemaic Empire.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 10.16 The Republic must re-think it's manner of deployment for Rome's legions and other defensive forces and come up with a suitable plan to better ensure the security of our growing nation's borders.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.17 The three churigeons in Rome are to be sent without delay to Marcellus Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius and Quintus Libo. Any new churigeons spawned are to be sent to other Lower House members with frontline commands, starting with Numerius Aureolus.[/i]
Proposed: Numerius Aureolus
Seconded: Marcellus Aemilius, Manius Coruncanius, Tiberius Coruncanius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.18 (Constitutional Ammendment): To ammend the constitution to allow acting Consuls to procure any such militarily relevant ancillaries as necessary for his campaign from other senators. These ancillaries must provide campaign or battle assistance only. Managerial and influential assistants do not fall within the perview of this motion. FURTHERMORE, the Consul is NOT empowered to unload existing ancillaries to accept new ancillaries.
Proposed: Galerius Vatinius

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I would like to express my sadness for the loss of Consul Quintus of his wife Faustina. She was well known as a respectable roman matron and I share his feelings at the loss of my mother-in-law. Thankfully, his extended family will help him to overcome this sad event.

Further I would like to congratulate legate Publius Leavinus and our acting consul Augustus Verginius on their great victories. The lands of Cispine Gaul are flooded with slaves and can now be developed further. The riches of Alesia have provided us with large amounts of badly-needed treasure with which we can pay for this.

Hail Roma !

[Glaucus]

Indeed, congradulations to Senator Publius Laevinus, I think I triumph is in order when he returns to Italy. To kill over 1000 Gauls for only 8 Romans is a victory sent from Mars and Jupiter themselves. I shall go offer a lamb myself in thanks.

I adamantly oppose any alliance with the Kingdom of Macedon. Need I remind you senators, that the Heirs of Phillip and Alexander are allied to the Greek Cities, our enemies. In my opinion, we should not even be considering talking to them about alliances. I say let Illyria and Thrace burn Pella to the ground! Why should we care? We should never consider an alliance, and immedietly refuse any offer as soon as they come. Those are just my thoughts senators, I would not want to ally with any Hellinic people, for as long as they stand against us.

[x-dANGEr]

Vibius Pleminius shrubs and leaves, with silence on his way out

[TinCow]

*A messenger rushes in, sweaty from a long ride. He bows briefly before turning to the door. A dozen slaves, carrying 6 large chests between them, shuffle into the room. They reach the middle of the floor and drop the chests, opening them for all to see. As the glitter of mounds of gold, silver and other valuables shines in the light, the messenger unrolls a scroll, from which he begins to read.*

Glory to Rome! Glory to the Republic!

Senators, I bring to you a sample of the wealth the Expedition has recovered from Gaul. Nearly 25,000 dinarii and thousands of slaves have been taken from the Gallic settlements, and the conquest is not yet even complete. Gergovia, Comata, Alesia, Remi and Gwenea have fallen before the might of the Republic and been left a wasteland. The only untouched settlement, Bourges, will fall this very winter.

With the mass of slave labor we have obtained, every single Cisalpine settlement has been turned into a small city. Even now Governor's Villas are being built or nearing completion in nearly all of them. Road construction will begin in some at the turn of the season and all of our northern territories should have roads by the end of my Consulship. The wealth of Gaul, much of it looted Roman gold and treasure from the time of Brennus, has been sent to the treasury and invested in the Republic. No less than 9 provinces have had auxilia infrastructure created in them. Governor's Villas and Palaces have gone up all over Italy to allow proper governance of our territories. Countless temples have been erected to glorify the Gods and appease some of our more troubled provinces. A safe harbor has been built to increase trade in Arretium and paved roads are being constructed in Rome as we speak.

With these investments and proper managerial control, income has increased by 2,500 dinarii per season and is still growing. Our treasury stands at over 14,000 dinarii as we speak, and many great building projects will begin this very winter. Our armies our strong, the Republic is strong. We have defeated all those who have opposed us... and yet there is much work to be done.

As was debated and agreed upon in this Senate, I have immediately abandoned all of the Gallic settlements which I have taken. This, and the steadfast determination or our Legions, has allowed me to strike harder and faster than I could ever have imagined. Publius Laevinus believed I could only take three settlements. I said I would take them all, but I truly thought it would take my entire term to do so. Yet now, only halfway through, the Gallic Expedition is almost complete!

As Roman men laid waste to their homes and their fields, I thought deeply about the future. As expected, the Gauls immediately moved to re-occupy the cesspits which they had lost. We know these territories are of no value to us and would require an excessive expenditure on arms to hold. We do not wish to keep them, yet the Gauls would eventually rebuild and send more warbands at us from them. Even now, Gergovia and Comata have been re-occupied and only last season another force assaulted Legio I at the Massilia crossing.

So, Senators, I have found a solution to this problem. To the north lies the tribe of Germania. They are smelly, pants-wearing barbarians, true, but they have remained civil and peaceful with the Republic. They have not once made an aggressive move towards us and they are heavily invested in a conflict with the Thracians. They are not a threat to us in the least. For this reason, I have turned over control of Alesia, Remi and Gwenea to them. No more shall these places be used to raise arms against Rome. No more shall we need to spend Roman blood to pacify them. Do not fear the German control of these provinces, they remain wastelands and can serve the northern tribes no more than they could serve the Gauls. Now, however, the settlements belong to one who is at peace with us, rather than one who is at war.

Senators, I say to you that it is within our power, here and now, to rid the world of the Gauls once and for all. Before winter is done, I shall assault Bourges and clense the last bastion of Gallic power. Let me give this to Germania as well. Like the others, it is far from our borders and of no use to us. It shall be left a wasteland like the rest and shall benefit them not. Furthermore, I implore you to allow me to finish the Gauls and send them all to Hades. After Bourges, they will have but the reoccupied settlements of Gergovia and Comata under their influence. Legio I and Legio III are both now stationed at the Massilia crossing. If this body would permit it, I will ask Lucius Aemilius and Publius Laevinus to lead their men across. Within three to six months, they can take both remaining settlements, eliminating the threat once and for all! Senators, I say to you, we can be rid of the Gauls for good less than half a year from now!

Yet, what then? I note with a mix of glee and displeasure that the Iberians have almost totally driven the Carthaginians from the peninsula. This is cause for celebration, true, but it is also cause for concern. Senators, I must inform you that Iberia is an ally of Gaul. They have great masses of men under arms and will have united all of Iberia under their control within a year. They will not sit idly by, I swear to you. Even now, three of their armies are in the north, one supporting their allies near Gergovia. Once Gaul ceases to exist, there will be nothing seperating our lands from theirs. It may take a season, it may take a year, but they will invade us. They are allies of the Gauls for a reason. They are the enemies of civilized people and they will turn they will turn their eyes on the riches of the Republic.

As I said, Legio I and Legio III are ready and prepared at the Massilia crossing. Let us unleash them upon the Gauls. Let us secure Gergovia and Comata, this time for good. With a small force fortified at the crossing and with our northern border held by the peaceful Germans, Legio I alone could keep the peace in both of these provinces and protect Massilia. All three are close and Gergovia is walled, such a feat would be a simple task. This would allow Legio III, under Publius Laevinus, and the Consular I Army to make a pre-emptive strike south at the Iberians, before they can bring war to us.

I believe that with the skill and courage of Senators Publius Laevinus and Lucius Aemilius, we could secure all of southern Gaul, northeastern Iberia and the shoreline as far south as Carthago Nova before my term is complete. These are trading provinces, Senators. Carthage developed many of them, and for good reason. They would bring us much wealth in the future and would vastly aid in the long-term struggle against Carthage. Why, from these territories, future Consuls could strike at Africa from east and west simultaneously!

Think to the future, Senators. The Iberians will attack us. If we move now, we can defeat them with a pre-emptive strike and vastly enrich the Republic with trade from the lost Punic provinces in Iberia.

I await word of your decision.

Your servant,
Augustus Verginius

*The messenger finishes, rolls up the scroll, and stands to the side, waiting patiently.*

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.
Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked.
Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again.
Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of siezing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/...st-interim.zip

[shifty157]

I second motions 6.1 through 6.3.

I have not yet decided how it is best to deal with the Iberians as I am not very convinced that they pose an imminent threat towward our empire. If the Gaulish lands were so far from our lands that they could not be held then I wonder what our Consul plans to do with Iberia whose lands are even farther away and who is currently very much at peace with us.

Regardless I congratulate our Consul on his successes in Gaul and I wish the aid of the Gods for his final assault in the far corner of the former Gaulish empire.

I propose Motion 6.5 which states that by the end of his reign, our current Consul must have begun the process of auxiliary integration in all provinces in our empire.

If we are to support armies across the seas in Iberia as our Consul wishes then we will need a larger base of support for our military. Too long have our home lands of Rome Capua and Ancona provided the vast majority of the troops for our armies. These three cities have supported us thus far in our expansion but I fear that very soon we will have grown beyond what we can safely and easily support.

[Glaucus]

Well done First Consul! You have proven me wrong. I thought an expedition into Gaul would undo the Republic, but you have made us stronger then ever. I congradulate you.

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.

This is obviously the logical course of action to take, if we leave an enemy alive but wounded, one day it will recover and fight again. Raze Bourges to the ground if it pleases the troops, or leave it unscathed, I personally don't care. But that brings me to my next point:

Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked.

Why should we give them more then we must? Once Gaul is gone they are gone for good. I think we should leave Bourges to Brigands. Germania may have good intentions toward us, but if they want Bourges let them expend men to do so. We should take the town, loot it, and leave. There is no need to give it to the Germans, let the locals take it, this way we can milk some taxes out of it before they civil revolt.

Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again.

I agree. I also think we should build a series of forts in order to ensure that no barbarians ever journy south into Roman lands again. I have calculated that with only 3 forts we could effectivly block any passage south from Germania to Massilia or Gergovia.

Thus I modify Motion 6.3 to this: Modified Motion 6.3:Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again. This house also authorizes the building of 3 borderforts in strategic locations so as to prevent Germania or any other barbarians from journeying south again.

Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of siezing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage.

Cheers. I also think we should attack the on the eastern coast of the continent, north of the pyrenes. The name escapes me but I know it was once Gaullic and it now Iberian.

Publius Pansa

[x-dANGEr]

A laugh echoes from behind, as a voice slowly approaches the hall of senate:

Senators, the title of this movement is "think to the future", but yet, it goes deep into one aspect, and by thus, leaving some other matters with no care. Our enemies to the south; the Carthagians, are occupied with their war against the Iberians, who as it seems, are not sparing them any moment. Our borders to the west are already covered by the Germanic tribes, just as those to the north. Though, the east is the course. The Kingdom of Macedonia is helping our rivals, those who grow from the Greek Cities, to come strong and powerful as the myths they tell about their gods. They are both occupied with a heated fight against the Illyrians. Not for long, though. As the Illyrians are being eaten from both sides by them, and with any further delay, we will only allow more strength to our rivals. I please you, dear Senators, to let me go on an expedition to the east. All I ask of you is a spy, and any army up to my rank. The Greek Cities armies are most likely busy on the front with the Illyrians, leaving their back cities open to a swift assault through the sea. With a spy in one of those cities, we can take one of them with the news reaching their leaders too later; allowing us to build walls, for any later assault to come, making a perfect place for the masscarce of any 'to-come' Greek armies, and a future base for the massive following expedition.

I support the motions:

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.

Modified Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again. This house also authorizes the building of 3 borderforts in strategic locations so as to prevent Germania or any other barbarians from journeying south again.

About the motions:

Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked: I agree to Publius Pansa on this aspect.

Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of seizing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage: I'd rather see them get depleted with Carthage before we lunch any invasion, for any invasion on them will strengthen Carthage from the other side.

And I propose motion:

Motion 6.6: A small army along with a spy is to be sent to a 'backroom' Greek city, to establish a future base for a larger expedition later on, and disturb the Greek lines buying the Illyrians time to turn the tide.

Vibius Pleminius

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: (sotto voce) What? The First Consul has submitted his interim report already! Why did you not fetch me earlier, foolish scribe?

(louder)Senators, excuse my late arrival. Evidently, the interim session of the Senate has opened. Some motions have already been submitted and more may be tabled. Each motion will require two seconders before it can be put to the vote.

In the light of representations made earlier, there will be three days for deliberation. The deadline for submitting motions will be Tuesday 6pm UK time. Voting will then open and will close on Wednesday 6pm.

I will now send private messages to all Senators notifying them of these arrangements.

[flyd]

Verginius, now you propose yet another new war in a far away land, when we still have two uncompleted wars close to home? I don't believe the Iberians will necessarily be aggressive. You point out how they were allies of Gaul, our enemies, but you fail to clearly note that they are also the enemies our Carthage, our enemy. If we attack them, we will detract from their efforts against Carthage.

Not only would it be foolish to do so, we don't have any real justificiation either. They have not been aggressive toward us. Your motive is suspect. Motion 3.13 is available should the Iberians not withdraw their armies in a reasonable amount of time after you have captured Gergovia.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

I will support Motion 6.1 and Motiom 6.3.
I care not for Motion 6.2, but I will support it if the acting consul agrees to ally with the Germans at any cost, otherwise I will oppose it.
I will support Motion 6.5, but I will not hold it against the first consul if the fails in this objective, as it will be difficult one to accomplish, if not impossible.
I will also support Motion 6.6, as I applaud offensive action against the Greeks of any kind. I will accordingly propose :

Motion 6.7 : We will ally ourselves with the Illyrians at any cost, also offering to declare war on their enemy the kingdom of Macedon.

I will disregard the modification of Motion 6.3 by senator Publius Pansa, as I feel he must first reach agreement with the first consul on the amendment of this proposal.

I agree with senator Tiberius Coruncanius. Why should our republic declare war on a nation that has done us no harm ? Does the Republic not have enough enemies ? I know well senator Verginius´s dislike of barbarians, but we have no history of conflict with the Iberians. They have been most convenient to us by attacking the Cartheginian colonies in Spain. Let us welcome them as friendly neighbours and let me remind the consul that the Motion that summons to consul to ally with Iberia still stands. I expect him not to violate the edicts of the Senate. Thus I violently oppose Motion 6.4

[TinCow]

First, I would like to thank Senator Publius Pansa for his wise words regarding Motion 6.2. This was an aspect that never occurred to me. I agree fully with his reasoning and as such I hearby withdraw Motion 6.2.

As for Iberia, I would like to remind the Senate that Carthage has but one territory remaining in Iberia: Carthago Nova. All other provinces have been firmly lost and they have not a single army outside of the city garrison. Beyond that, their African forces are fully occupied with the Numidian war and they have made not a single move to reinforce Carthago Nova for many years. Senators, let me show you the grand Carthaginian presence in Iberia:



I show you this for one point and one point only: this will not occupy the Iberians for long. There are two large armies converging on it as we speak and I believe that Carthago Nova will be in Iberian hands within a year. Do any of you honestly believe they will let their large armies sit idle? No, neither do I. They will seek further conquests. I would also like to inform that Senate that the grand Iberian navy consists of a single ship, nothing more. Iberia will not send their armies overseas, especially when the African territories directly south of them are held by the Numidians, with whom they are on friendly terms. No, they will seek conquests by land. With all of Iberia secured and their only land border being with Rome, whom do you think they will turn on?

I admit, this would be an act of aggression. I have no vendetta against the Iberians, nor do I wish them ill. I propose this strike simply because I believe war will come, and come soon, whether we wish it or not. In such a situation, I would prefer to be fighting in their territory rather than ours. In addition, we already have significant forces marshalled in the area and we are ready to strike this very moment. If we withdraw and consolidate, we will lose the opportunity for an aggressive, decisive strike at a later time.

As you all know, I have often spoken about limiting conquests and strengthening the Republic from within. I do not take this stance lightly. It is only because I believe in my heart that the Iberians will move against us soon, that I propose this course of action.

Finally, I would also like to note that contrary to Senator Vibius Pleminius' statements, Illyria is not about to fall. In the past two and a half years, they have repeatedly and decisively defeated large Macedonian and Greek forces. I believe that Illyria will hold on for a long time to come and with luck, they may even retake more of their lost territories.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Pah ! Consul Verginius, your arguments for assaulting Iberia fall on deaf ears here !

True, we had a score to settle with Gaul, and thus I supported your election, but now that I have read your report in full, I demand you explain yourself to the Senate in detail ! Let me quote :

For this reason, I sent Sextus Antio to meet with the Germans. He told them that the provinces were a gift from the goodwill of the Republic to their growing tribe.

I find it hard to believe the consul took this dramatic step without consulting with the senate. Does he suffer from delusions of grandeur ? You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ? I don´t believe this, my fellow senators, do my eyes play me false ? Someone wake me from this evil dream !
What next ? Shall we conquer the city states of Greece and give them to the barbarians of Thrace, and let me quote, from the goodwill of the Republic.

I feel the acting consul has overstepped the limits of his Imperium here and I demand his apology to the senate and an extensive explanation and maybe I will not impeach him.

[Wishazu]

Who cares if the hairy germans have received a worthless, depopulated burnt out town from us. It would only have been a drain on our resources anyway. Let all the barbarians fight amongst themselves over the ruins of Gaul. I no longer have any wish to deal with these mudhut dwellers, or anyone else who does not realise the divine supremacy of Rome.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senators, we are at an important cross-roads. The actions we take now will dictate the term of the next First Consul and beyond.

One observation I must make at the onset is that an Iberia army is adjacent to the settlement of their Gaulish allies at Gergovia. Consequently, I suspect that if we try to seize Gergovia and Comata as per motion 6.3, or indeed if we attempt to destroy Gaul as per motion 6.1, there is a strong risk that we provoke a war with Iberia. Hence I would urge all Senators who oppose motion 6.4 to withdraw their support for these earlier motions and to vote them down.

Senators, there is another possibility: that the First Consul return to Massilia after his historic raid, leaving Gergovia and Comata as Gaulish "buffer states" between us, Iberia and the Germans. I doubt the Iberians will declare war on us if their lands do not adjoin ours. And Gaul may be hostile, but with only two decimated settlements incapable of raising troops, I cannot see that they would ever be able to breach the ford at Massilia.

Senators, if we try to eliminate Gaul or to hold Gergovia and Comata, I fear we will soon become embroiled in war with Iberia. Until this day, I had not heard one voice in the Senate argue for a war with that power. Were there not calls for an alliance to be made with her, not long ago? I fear we are being sucked into war that we did not plan for little more reason that the momentum created by the First Consul's raids. Yes, we have the men available to invade Iberia, but would not those men be better employed against our existing enemies, Greece and Carthage, rather than making new foes?

The First Consul is to be congratulated on the magnificent military victories he has achieved on his great raid. He has effectively broken the power of Gaul - she will not rise again. In the last election, I almost alone agreed with senator Publius Laevinus that the time was right to bring down Gaul. But the problem is that the First Consul has delivered much of Gaul to the Germans, not to us. And the Germans are a rather more formiddable power than Gaul - a power that we have never intended to fight. Moreover, if we move to occupy what little remains of Gaul, we are likely to be sucked into a war with both Germany and Iberia.

Senators, the First Consul promised us a period of consolidation. I believe this would best be achieved by him sticking to his manifesto plan and returning to Massilia after his great raid has been completed. In doing this, he will have effectively destroyed one of our most troublesome enemies. And through his raids, he will have enriched the Republic with gold and slaves. Returning to Massilia, we will be in a most defensible position, without lands bordering Iberia or Germany. The next First Consul will then be free to devote his reign to another project, without being committed to a new war with Iberia.

Senators, I propose:

Motion 6.8: This house instructs the First Consul, after raiding Bourges, to return all Roman troops back to the Republic. The raided Gallic settlements of Gergovia and Comata are to be left as buffers between us and Iberia and Germany. This motion invalidates motions 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4.

I call upon any of the many Senators who voted for the First Consul to second this motion and insist that the First Consul honour his manifesto commitments.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It is with a glad heart that I see that I am not the only voice of reason amongst us. I embrace the sentiments voiced by consul Quintus.

I will second Motion 6.8 and withdraw support from Motion 6.1 and Motion 6.3 accordingly. That said, I still believe Gergovia would be a strategic stronghold for us and hope consul Quintus will amend Motion 6.8 accordingly.

I still await a response of acting consul Verginius...

[Glaucus]

You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ?

Senator, if you remember, it was in our plans since the begining to leave those lands to the barbarians. Why should we not raise our standing with the Germans, since we are not to keep those lands anyway? The Consul is not a Dictator, it is true, but I feel what he did was quite within his rights and I fully support his decision.

As to you, ex-First Consul Quintus, I understand your opinions and your reasoning. I would like to see Roman legions marching through Carthago, but right now, our troops are near Iberia, and Iberia is allied to our enemy. I firmly believe that if Iberia did not want a gladius in her rib, she should not have allied with out enemy. Simply put, the ally of my enemy is my enemy, no questions asked. Iberia is next in line, and with the border forts I have proposed, in addition to Consul Augustus Verginius's decision to gift Alesia to Germania, we have nothing to fear from the North.

[flyd]

I hereby second Motion 6.8.

Senator Aemilius has brought up an interesting point about diplomacy, and I am wondering what the Senate's opinion is on this. I propose the following motion:

Motion 6.9: This house believes that Consul Verginius exceeded his authority while engaging in unauthorized diplomatic relations with the Germans, and condemns him for doing so. Note: this motion does not impeach the Consul.

Some background inforamation. The Consul gave away large areas of Gaul to the Germans without first consulting the Senate. Whether you believe that this was the strategically correct or incorrect thing to do is irrelevant for this motion. Instead, the question is whether the Consul is allowed to make such deals, without informing the Senate or seeking their authorization. I feel this motion would set an important precedent.

[Glaucus]

That motion is an insult to this very house! Have you forgotten that the Consul has Imperium? He can do as he likes, and as our laws say, he must only consult the senate when dealing with Alliances or Wars. He did not deal with those, so whatever he did was appropriate. He himself took those settlements, and it was our plan always to leave them. First Consul Augustus Verginius has led Rome very well, and, personally, I would offer myself up before allowing any shame or dishonor fall on his shoulders.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, I regret that I cannot amend motion 6.8 to authorise occupation of Gerogiva at this point. I agree that ultimately it would be a fine strategic settlement to occupy. And indeed, I have no objection to the Senate in due course authorising a move into what was formerly Gaul in the future, when we are ready to confront Iberia and Germany.

However, the purpose of the motion is to avoid us being drawn in to an ill considered war with Iberia at the moment. Right now, an Iberian army is camped outside Gergovia, ready to defend the settlement for their allies the Gaul if we attack. If we take Gergovia, I believe war with Iberia will be very likely because (a) there is a chance Iberian armies will defend adjacent Gaulish allies; (b) it is likely that Iberian armies in the province will be within our newly occupied territory, thus entitling the First Consul to strike at them as invaders; (c) the occupation will make the Republic adjacent to Iberia, making us the natural target for expansion by that power.

I have no objection to waging war with Iberia if they invade our lands or if the Senate decides it is in the best interest of the Republic. But the purpose of motion 6.8 is to prevent us stumbling into a fresh war of conquest when the will of the Senate was for a period of consolidation.

I hope Senator Lucius Aemilius can still second the motion unamended and that an additional seconder can be found.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I hereby second the Motion 6.9 proposed by senator Tiberius Coruncanius, condemning acting consul Verginius for freely giving away conquered territory to another nonallied nation.

Firstly, let me not detract from the successes that acting consul Verginius has brought the Republic. He fulfilled all the promises I had for him and more besides. Our lands are overflowing with slaves and gold.

But this is not the point !

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans. Our citizens will not sleep better at night knowing that we now have the ferocious Germans to our north instead of Gauls. On the contrary.

Senator Publius Pansa, the acting consul can not do as he likes, he is not a king, thank the heavens, or a Dictator. I feel he greatly overstepped his Imperium here. Also, your arguments for attacking Iberia cut no wood with me. Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again. We still have an active Motion suggesting an alliance with Iberia for the sake of Jupiter.

EDIT : In view of consul Quintus´s arguments I will continue to support Motion 6.8

[Glaucus]

Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again.

Why would we attack Carthage? We invaded Sicily with no grounds. This time we have grounds. They ally with our enemies, aiding them! We must send a message to the world, if you stand with our enemies, you stand against us!

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans

The Germans like us! We gave them land are friendly with them. Would you rather us leave lands to a broken people, so that the Germans can come south with a blood lust and ready for more conquest? Since we gave them land, the like us and will not feel the need to expand any time soon. Up until this date, the Germans have hardly expanded at all, thus far they are a calm people.

On a different note, could First Consul Augustus Verginius consider changing his original Motion 6.3 to include the construction of forts? I believe Senator Vibius Pleminius has voiced his support of it.

[shifty157]

Why would we attack Carthage? We invaded Sicily with no grounds. This time we have grounds. They ally with our enemies, aiding them! We must send a message to the world, if you stand with our enemies, you stand against us!

The Germans like us! We gave them land are friendly with them. Would you rather us leave lands to a broken people, so that the Germans can come south with a blood lust and ready for more conquest? Since we gave them land, the like us and will not feel the need to expand any time soon. Up until this date, the Germans have hardly expanded at all, thus far they are a calm people.

Senator I am sorry but I can not let this pass by. Your arguments are weak and generally have no basis. More importantly I could easily crush your arguments using your own logic.

That said I would advise looking for more solid arguments to support war against Iberia as there are several much better ones.

I will support Motion 6.5, but I will not hold it against the first consul if the fails in this objective, as it will be difficult one to accomplish, if not impossible.

Quite the contrary Senator my motion is not nearly impossible. Indeed after examining the latest maps of our empire I was pleased to find that our current Consul has done a great deal to further this necessary integration already i his reign. Now only a few settlements remain without having even begun this process and I believe it is time to make a dedicated effort to get these last stragglers on the road to auxiliary integration. It is a fully realizeable goal and one I think well worth the time and effort.

That said I would also like to present a confusion in word definitions to the senate. To impeach an officeholder merely means to find them guilty of an offense. Impeachment does in no way imply removement from office. For an official to be removed from office he must of course first be impeached however. Many officeholders throughout history have been impeached but allowed to retain their post in office.

Also might I point out to the Senate that our current Consul cannot be impeached for the great freedom he has taken in his dealings with the Germanians as there is no standing provision specifically against his actions. Therefore I motion that the current standing motion for impeachment be struck down due to this technicality as it is compeltely without basis and I encourage my fellow senators to learn from this oversight in legislature and accomidate for it in the future.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: I must speak against motion 6.9. While I too was shocked to hear that we have given Germany settlements in Gaul, the First Consul was acting within his authority to do so. If Senator Tiberius Coruncanius wishes to restrict the authority of First Consuls in diplomacy in future, he should submit a simple motion that does so, not criticise the First Consul for doing what he was perfectly entitled to do so.

So much for the legality of the First Consul's action - but was it wise? Shocked though I was, I confess I now see a certain logic to it. With the enslavement of their people and the destruction of their buildings, it was inevitable that Gaul would fall. Since Germany is currently more preoccupied than Iberia, I can see why the First Consul wished them to be the ones to step into the power vacuum.

Personally, I have hitherto been in favour of our own Republic occupying Gaul. But given that the Senate decided on a strategy of raiding, I cannot fault the First Consul's execution of that strategy to date. Indeed, rather than condemn him, I believe we should congratulate him on his accomplishments in the battlefield and on the rapid pace of his progress.

However, as evidenced by motion 6.8, I do have grave doubts about the wisdom of his plans for the rest of his term of office.

[flyd]

Also might I point out to the Senate that our current Consul cannot be impeached for the great freedom he has taken in his dealings with the Germanians as there is no standing provision specifically against his actions. Therefore I motion that the current standing motion for impeachment be struck down due to this technicality as it is compeltely without basis and I encourage my fellow senators to learn from this oversight in legislature and accomidate for it in the future.

Firstly, there is no motion for impeachement. The motion you refer to specifically states that it is not an impeachement. Perhaps you should reread the full text of the motion.

Secondly, the Senate can impeach the Consul for whatever reason they wish. Do not try to undermine the Senate's power.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senator Publius Pansa,

Consul Quintus deemed the torture and killing of honest Roman traders on false pretenses of espionage a fair reason to attack the Carthiginians and the senate supported his decison.

The Iberians may have allied themselves with our enemies, the Gauls, but they are also the enemies of our enemies, the Cartheginians ! And I say the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Striking out at Iberia would be a dishonorable act and condemn us in the eyes of the world as a ruthless agressor.

I feel overwhelmed with joy that that the Germans like us. I can hardly contain my happiness. I suggest we return the islands and Sicily to the Cartheginians in the hope that they will like us too. While we are at it, why don't we give back the Greek colonies ? Perhaps the Greeks will like us too then ?
The Germans have never expanded because they are weak. Now we've made them strong. Perhaps now they'll decide to march on Rome. Even the Gauls fear the ferocious Germans. We have exchanged one evil for a bigger one. Anyone who has met a German will heap scorn on your claims that they are a 'calm' people.

EDIT :
I agree that Motion 6.9 is a condemnation, instead of an impeachment. However, I still feel the acting consul has greatly overstepped the bounds of his Imperium and will thus attempt to impeach him if he does not explain himself further and apologize for the exercise of a decision which I feel belonged to this house.

[shifty157]

Firstly, there is no motion for impeachement. The motion you refer to specifically states that it is not an impeachement. Perhaps you should reread the full text of the motion.

Secondly, the Senate can impeach the Consul for whatever reason they wish. Do not try to undermine the Senate's power.

Might I direct you Senator to my second paragraph which showcases the confusion in terms which occured causing the odd owrding in the motion. An impeachment and the act of finding the Consul guilty of an offense is the exact same thing. They are interchangeable and therefore the motion proposed very much is a motion for impeachment.

That said I am not attempting to undermine the senate's power and please enver again accuse me of such an act or I will be forced to propose a motion asking for your reprimanding by the senate and temporary suspension due to overtly libelous intent implying that I am being treasonous.

That said the Senate can only impeach the firts Consul if and when he willfully breaks one of the rules laid down by the Senate to guide him. Since we have no law regarding the giving away of lands then our Consul cannot be found guilty of breaking a law. It is equivalent to me saying that you are under arrest for wearing that gaudy red and green toga you always wear even though there is no law against it (though perhaps there should be. the law of decency and taste perhaps).

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Ah, it is good to see my friend, Publius Laevinus, here at the Senate. But I beseech you with regard to motion 6.5, what is this obsession with auxilia buildings? Why is it necessary to tie up all our settlements creating facilities for training troops? It is absurd! We can easily supply all our needs from our Roman provinces and those provinces already earmarked for the recruitment of auxiliaries. How many men, Legate Publius Laevinus, did you lose in your last glorious battle with the Gauls? Eight? Must each settlement be forced to contribute a finger or toe for the replacements for these eight fallen heroes?

Senators, we have other priorities! There are still markets to be built and roads to be laid. Roma itself needs investing in so its population may grow and we can ultimately establish the most advanced metalworks to equip our troops with the finest weapons and armour. The great ports of Tarentum and Syracuse do not have armouries for their ships, nor have we constructed a single warship! Our largest settlements have poor sanitation and I fear terrible plague may strike at any moment. Let us invest wisely on a case by case basis and not pander to this obsession with militarising the smallest hamlet!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

As to the question of technicalities surrounding Motion 6.9 I will say this :

I see Motion 6.9 as an expression of disfavour/condemnation by the senate. This will not remove the consul from office.

However, I might exercize my right to propose a Motion to impeach the consul, which if passed by 2/3 of the senate, will remove the consul from office.

Further there is the argument that there is no specific law laid down by this house regarding the giving away of conquered land to nonallied nations.
I see this as a non-argument. There are also no laws against burning down Roma, but that is no reason to putting it to the torch. There is such a thing as common sense.

[flyd]

Senator Laevinus, I suppose there has been some confusion in terms. I ask the Speaker to ammend Motion 6.9 by removing the impeachment note. However, the motion is perfectly valid. The Senate may condemn the Consul's action if it does not find them satisfactory. The question at hand is if the Consul is justified in performing diplomatic agreements without notifying and/or requesting the authorization of the Senate. There is indeed no past law specifying that. This motion would solicit the opinion of the Senate, and would act as a precedent for the future.