cavalry, abuse or use

[gaijinalways]

I often like to work my cav hard, baiting, looking to catch AI routers, trying to tease the AI out of position, taking down seige weapons, etc.

But often, these are my most depleted units after some battles. I wonder if I don't pay enough attention to them or just put them into too much danger too often.

Anyway, one of my favorite warnings is when I get warnings about constant retreats, thus getting cav units that have lost no or very few members to rout! Still, these units do their job, and if I have a replacement, then I can bring in somebody else.

But how do you use cav? Which do you use?

(I often use mercs, xbows, RKs that I make, some steppe types).

[Ironside]

Well, compare your kill/loss ratio in the end of the battle for your cav compared to your front line units. Units that see combat very often will have losses no matter what.
You cannot expect a ratio of 95 to 1 in every battle (my golden lancers took down a 3500 men faction reappearence with that ratio ).

Considering that you'll get constant retreats messages, indicates that you shift destinations with you cav too often and that you control them quite a bit. So unless your kill/loss ratio is very poor, then you use your cav quite well, but needs to refine your tactics so that the constant retreat message doesn't show up.

I use cav for most purposes, although chasing routers is the most important. The cav varies, but I'll usually throw in a mix of what aviable to the faction, although it would probably be more optimized to use heavy cav almost entirely (and heavy horse archers), but I like variation.

For cav training I recommend that you'll test using pure cav armies, you'll really need to think to use them well. And you'll get good at swarming units.

Swarming is what I call it when attack them from all flanks and then hit them in the former front (you can actually attack them in the front instead of feinting, if you have to of course, but that's a bad idea vs polearms). Causes instant rout on almost everything, and the rest will die very quickly.
It even works with regular horse archers, but isn't that recommendable.

[Ciaran]

Being someone who likes the heavy stuff, I mostly use Chivalric Knights as my main cavalry, Lancers if I play the Spanish, and Gendarmes if available as a complement.

I also experience heavy losses for my cav, as a rule, because, I suspect, I don´t micromanage them enough, I tend to smash them into the back or flank of the enemy (swords and ranged units usually get attacked head on - not the smartest move, I know, but they tend to do well enough) and then let them hack it out, focussing on someone different and rotating my attention over the whole battlefield. As a result, when I come back to my Cav, they have usually lost quite a number (though as a rule they´ve also dealt better than they´ve taken).
On the other hand, I´ve also lost battles because I´ve micromanaged my cavalry and almost completely ignored the rest of the battle, which, of course went down south. If there is an ideal way, I´ve yet to find it.

[gaijinalways]

Yes, I think the valor and morale rankings also have something to do with it, though I often get jinnetes doing it, thus my dislike for that unit !

Yes, I like to do a lot of feinting, but also I don't want my missle cav decimated. I usually can pepper some AI footsoldiers, than run away as RKs or better chase me (or AI missle troops). I wouldn't think that in a battle I am winning that cav would rout before that unit has made actual physical contact ! But as I said ealier, they often do their job, distracting some faster soldiers into chasing me, or some troops being out of place as the rest of my troops slowly come up to make contact, missle or otherwise.

Ah, swarming, I like doing that especially with AI troops I have already slightly depleted by missle attacks or frontal assaults and sometimes I engage with a small group of spearmen or swords at the front (sometimes a small group of mercs whose suicide value hasn't been used up yet) while my cav hit from behind and on the side!

[danfda]

I am certain that I abuse cav. I generally like to have two to four units per army (which gets expensive, but the rest usually are cheap spam infantry--preferably inf that can shoot arrows). I engage and flank, pretty basic, and the only time that I get bad cav kill ratios is when I accidentally forget about the poor guys and they wander off to get mauled. I often do take losses, but considering that they are the sharp point of my army, that is to be expected. So no, Ciaran, you're not alone. :D

Horse archers, the basic variety, I suck with. Generally I end up using any available cav as the hammer to an infantry anvil, so HAs don't work so well. Boyars are great, HSC are also quite nice, but I prefer nice, tank-like cav.

[tigger_on_vrb]

On the contarary I would say I abuse my infantry! I use my cavalry as a highly mobile force - advance, retreat, probing defences, defend flanks, chasing routers etc while I expect my infantry to sit holding the centre and not rout!
I prefer a mixture of mounted missiles and medium cavalry for this purpose as it suits my tactics better. I'm very protective of my cavalry and expect few losses and an amazing kill to loss ratio while I expect to suffer infantry losses.
I find heavy cavalry slugging it out with infantry wasteful and boring, but just my opinion!
Needless to say I usually play the Spanish, Hungarians or Turks.

[Deus ret.]

Until recently I also belonged to the faction of heavy-cav addicts, just smashing them into exposed parts and trusting that they'd slug it out somehow. Of course that's still a nice tactic and I like to to use it when it's possible; but in the early stages of a campaign (or in certain areas respectively) I usually find myself heavily lacking in decent tank cav, also due to their high cost. so as long as they're too valuable to be wasted I've come to keep them as emergency reserves and do most of the work with light cavalry. Being a stopgap at first, this approach proved to be incredibly effective.
all one needs is light cavalry with as high a charge as possible. then, simply pull off more or less the same trick as with the heavies, but be ready to withdraw once the charge hits (and with light cav like Mt Sgts it's VERY important to charge properly, i.e. in formation, to maximize its effect). losses will be minimal and even if not, the cheap units are easily replenished. then turn around and charge again....the swarm tactic also works perfect with light cav, and they have more charges up their sleeve than knights because they don't tire easily. additionally, due to their speed they dispose of an improved ability to hunt down routers. and once you have gone through a couple of battles with those guys they'll reward it with high valour levels which are easily gained because of the enormous losses they can cause. the only things to be really aware of are 1) better cav and 2) missile units; but the first can be outmaneuvred most of the times until spears or knight are ready and the second are caught quickly.

so what? yes, I also do abuse cavalry since they are my main striking force (and the main makeshift) on the field and suffer above-average losses, also due to my not-always-that-perfect employment....but why worry about that? the next steppe cav or mtd sergeant is round the corner.

[Marquis de Said]

I tend to abuse my cavalry. Or maybe its just a different way of using it.

Nowadays, I prefer fast light and medium cavalry (Alan mercenary cavalry, Mamluk HA, Szekely, Saharan cavalry, Steppe cavalry, Turcoman horse) to heavy and slow knights. And I will usually have one or two sacrificial horses in my line-up. I tend to let my heavy infantry do most of the slugging out.

If I'm defending, I use my fast light cavalry to harass the enemy missile units as they march towards my main line, and maybe lure a heavy infantry unit out of the formation and have it chase me. Sometimes I'll try to lure knights as well in order to reduce the number of elite units attacking me. After all, the main battle at the centre is all about matchups, and the loss or delay of even one unit of knights can be costly to the opponent.

When I'm attacking, I send my fast cavalry to again harass the enemy's line and maybe get a heavy cavalry unit to chase them - straight into my spear line.

Most of my cavalry will have excellent kill-loss ratios, although one will possibly get decimated if it gets caught by the charging knights.

[gaijinalways]

Yes, using cavs on the wings helps to string out the AI units, as my cav units keep threatening to circle around in back of the AI's main forces.

I notice in my current English campaign (on vacation as I am out of the country now) that the AI often brings more cav units than I do (sometimes none, but I am slowly trying to churn out more cav units, as well as using some merc units), so my cav units are chased by a number of scouting cav units sometimes, often jedi types. I earlier shared when 1 AI unit routed 36 RKs that I had, though my cav came back later to harass the AI archers when the AI cav routed after hitting my main troops (couldn't resist chasing my cav off into my own main group of troops).

[bamff]

In most situations I prefer to hold my cav units. Particularly in a defensive battle I tend to send one or two units out wide early. My infantry take the brunt of whatever my foes have to deal out, and then my cav units charge from the rear and/or run down routers. Any extra units that I have held behind my main force also go wide and hit the enemy's flanks at the same time that the original flankers hit their rear.

If I have mounted archers of any description (generally Turcopoles as I have yet to play a muslim faction), they also go wide early, with their mission generally being to find a spot from which to pepper the enemy general.

On attack I follow a broadly similar approach....

In bridge situations, if there are two, I will often send some cav units to charge across the undefended bridge (why does the AI leave the back door open so often?) purely to get the AI to split their forces. On a one bridge battle, I hold them all until it is time to slaughter routers.

I suppose that because of this approach, my cav suffers less than other units, but they still can take a few hits from time to time....

[Don Corleone]

First, if the deployment oval means the AI might have units in the trees on ambush, I use my cav to buzz the trees and see if I can flush them out.

After that, I generally try to post them to the highest ground I can find on my wings. At the moment of impact, I send them in. If the AI starts sending in their reserve (and surprisingly, frequently the AI is smart enough to hold one), I use the cav to screen them. As I tend to be sword heavy, this usually means the AI winds up with no spear wall. All his actual hand-to-hand troops (militia, swords) are penned up by my cavalry. By the time they manage to get around or through the screen, I've put a hurting on any main line troops they have and I reverse order... push forward with swords and flank with spears (so my spears don't get crushed by AI's swords). This is generally where every cavalry unit I have except for my general starts playing hunt the general. If I haven't already dispersed the AI's archers, now is also a good time for that.

Generally, my cavalry take heavy losses, but they do a lot of work for me. I just keep restocking them and I keep their numbers up. I'm big into role playing, so generally, I have a regiment attitude and try desparately to keep each original unit restocked, rather than disbanding and building a new one.

[gaijinalways]

Restocking depleted units is better usually as your morale and valor stays higher, rather than just bringing in all newbies.

I too, often use high ground for my cav (if it exists) as this makes it harder for AI units to reach my cav and also gives you a better range for missle cav units.

[danfda]

Is the charge bonus totally negated when attacking up a hill? I try to avoid that situation if at all possible, but there are occasions when I end up attacking up an incline. Naturally, my units suffer greatly, but cav seems especially hamstrung in that role. So--yea or nay?

[Geezer57]

In bridge situations, if there are two, I will often send some cav units to charge across the undefended bridge (why does the AI leave the back door open so often?) purely to get the AI to split their forces.

What difficulty are you playing? This may happen on lower levels of difficulty, but on Expert the A.I. usually reacts quickly to any move by the player towards the open bridge - and almost always gets there before your troops.

Is the charge bonus totally negated when attacking up a hill? I try to avoid that situation if at all possible, but there are occasions when I end up attacking up an incline. Naturally, my units suffer greatly, but cav seems especially hamstrung in that role. So--yea or nay?

You have to get up to "Charge Speed" before you'll gain the charge bonus, which is where the "3-second rule" comes in on level ground - if your unit doesn't have approx. 3 seconds in which to accelerate, it won't gain the bonus.

On steep enough hills/mountains, and/or with tired enough troops, they won't get up to sufficient speed - and you won't see any charge benefit. With shallower hills, and with fresh troops, they'll get the extra attack. Under poorer circumstances, they won't. Clear?!?

[danfda]

You have to get up to "Charge Speed" before you'll gain the charge bonus, which is where the "3-second rule" comes in on level ground - if your unit doesn't have approx. 3 seconds in which to accelerate, it won't gain the bonus.

On steep enough hills/mountains, and/or with tired enough troops, they won't get up to sufficient speed - and you won't see any charge benefit. With shallower hills, and with fresh troops, they'll get the extra attack. Under poorer circumstances, they won't. Clear?!?

As crystal! As it turns out, I did not know that. I will adjust tactics accordingly. Thank you sir.

[gaijinalways]

The extra bridge sometimes helps, but it is true, it depends on the difficulty level, as the AI will often attack your cav units crossing the extra bridge on expert.

[Vladimir]

Well it seems like you use your horses well. Just make sure you use the right ones for the right job. Don't use your heavies for anything other than their charge and defense stats. Use your lights as you first described. If you use mounted archers/x-bows, try to use them for nothing other than rear attacks and chasing routers. It really sucks when you get your valored up mounted x-bows mangled in melee. The best thing cavalry bring to the battlefield is mobility; use that attribute.

[Deus ret.]

You have to get up to "Charge Speed" before you'll gain the charge bonus, which is where the "3-second rule" comes in on level ground - if your unit doesn't have approx. 3 seconds in which to accelerate, it won't gain the bonus.

interesting. I remember that I took over recommendations from RTW and they also seemed to work. These essentialy emphasize to let cav charge 1)in formation and 2)at full speed. Both requirements are met when a cavalry unit is first ordered to deploy in formation at a certain location and, once arrived, directed at the enemy by a single click (a double click, often used but harmful, would send them running immediately, thereby most likely breaking up their formation as well as tire them out more quickly). They'll approach their target while retaining their formation and accelerate to carry out the charge once in range. I had the impression that this method yielded quite good results; with this kind of charge technique, light lancer cav becomes the force on the field, able to take on otherwise much stronger opponents. ...anyway I just mentioned it because I believe the unit's charge time is considerably below the three seconds you suggested... I didn't know this rule before, maybe it makes things easier?

[bamff]

What difficulty are you playing? This may happen on lower levels of difficulty, but on Expert the A.I. usually reacts quickly to any move by the player towards the open bridge - and almost always gets there before your troops.

They were certainly a little slow on the uptake on "hard".....and I have yet to fight a bridge battle on "expert".....maybe I will have to alter tactics to try to get the AI to cross to my side and shoot them up as they cross?

Any suggestions?

[Ironside]

What difficulty are you playing? This may happen on lower levels of difficulty, but on Expert the A.I. usually reacts quickly to any move by the player towards the open bridge - and almost always gets there before your troops.

Depends. I think that the comp react on the bridge if you starts to move your general towards it, but I've been having 3-4 cav units on the other side of the bridge, without the comp even bother about them, unless you start to move them close towards the other bridge.

The AI is sadly lacking on good tactics when it's 2 bridges, the only advantage is that in the rare cases the AI does use both, it can be very dangerous.

Playing on expert. IIRC there's no extra tactics that the comp gains on expert compared to hard.

[Peasant Phill]

They were certainly a little slow on the uptake on "hard".....and I have yet to fight a bridge battle on "expert".....maybe I will have to alter tactics to try to get the AI to cross to my side and shoot them up as they cross?

Any suggestions?

use a sacrificial unit to cross the bridge and fight the enemy. Eventually the unit will rout back across the bridge with chasing enemy soldiers in its wake. The enemy unit(s) won't be in formation and therefor easily killed.
Pick the right sacrificial unit and you could use it effectively multiple times. I once used early royal knights with a nasty vice for this purpose. They pulled of 4 charges/routs and lured 8 units over the bridge that were easily slaughtered.

[Geezer57]

Depends. I think that the comp react on the bridge if you starts to move your general towards it, but I've been having 3-4 cav units on the other side of the bridge, without the comp even bother about them, unless you start to move them close towards the other bridge.

My experiences with bridge battles have sure been different from yours - I've left my General at the main (contested) bridge, and sent a small group of cav towards the open one. The A.I. reacts before they get there much more often than not, usually preventing any crossing of mine at all. The few times I've been able to pull off an uncontested crossing were when the A.I. army was cavalry deficient, comprising almost all infantry. Just my luck!

[danfda]

Same here (I play on Hard). The AI leaves the 2nd bridge uncovered, and shadows my troops as I move them over, General or not. That said, probably not as quickly as Expert, but they do move cav over if they've got it and infantry always. I can get a single unit on the other side (usually) but then they're quickly slaughtered. The bait and swarm tactic mentioned above does work quite well.

[Kralizec]

I often like to work my cav hard, baiting, looking to catch AI routers, trying to tease the AI out of position, taking down seige weapons, etc.

But often, these are my most depleted units after some battles. I wonder if I don't pay enough attention to them or just put them into too much danger too often.

Anyway, one of my favorite warnings is when I get warnings about constant retreats, thus getting cav units that have lost no or very few members to rout! Still, these units do their job, and if I have a replacement, then I can bring in somebody else.

But how do you use cav? Which do you use?

(I often use mercs, xbows, RKs that I make, some steppe types).

I tend to to be have lots of infantry and rarely more then 3 cavalry units, wich I usually only use for the coup de grâce or if part of my battle line is about to falter and no infantry reserve is available.
However, merc cavalry and indeed mercenaries in general I use agressively and with little regard for their survival rate. Mercs are generally to expensive to keep around for long, and as their numbers can't be replaced you can just as well use them up in one battle.

[Scurvy]

i like having a lot ofd light cav but not heavys, i only really use them for flanking or chasing routers

[Ironside]

My experiences with bridge battles have sure been different from yours - I've left my General at the main (contested) bridge, and sent a small group of cav towards the open one. The A.I. reacts before they get there much more often than not, usually preventing any crossing of mine at all. The few times I've been able to pull off an uncontested crossing were when the A.I. army was cavalry deficient, comprising almost all infantry. Just my luck!

A question. Offensive or defensive bridge battles? I almost never play offensive ones as they're very often aviodable.

[Geezer57]

A question. Offensive or defensive bridge battles? I almost never play offensive ones as they're very often aviodable.

My post dealt almost exclusively with offensive bridge battles. I'm pretty predictable with just about every defensive bridge battle: block the bridge with a polearm or strong spear unit, and mass missle fire on the span. When the A.I. army starts to break, send across the cavalry to pursue the routers. Boring, but effective.

[gaijinalways]

Cav are good for bridge battles, whether defensive or offensive. It's getting them across that is tough sometimes .

[Martok]

I don't use cavalry much for bridge battles, especially if I'm the attacker. When defending bridges, I sometimes allow the attacker to cross with some of his men, and then hit him on three sides. I do this more often when I don't have any strong defensive unit available, and all I have is spearmen and the like. Cav can be very useful in these types of situations.

In hilly & mountainous terrain, I find cavalry to be of limited effectiveness when I'm the attacker, but they still have their uses. The best thing I can usually do with them is get my horse on high ground in an attempt to force the defender to abandon his current position for one that gives him less of an advantage.

On mostly flat terrain, however, cavalry is king (of course). And when I play as the Spanish (which is often), I *always* field large numbers of Jinnettes.

[gaijinalways]

I just had a classic battle where cav really carried the day.

The setting was a BYz vs me (the Englsih) in rum. I attacked with a 9 star general and about 640 men aganist over 1500.

I had about 6 cav units in my starting line up, wit 2 more cav units in reserve. I started off hitting his siege engines with 4 cav units (2 HA and 2 Ms) while he actually came closer to my main units, which I didn't move. My cav wiped pout the seige engines and then tangled with an archer unit, his general. So much for the AI general hanging around.

Meanwhile I posted 1 HA unit outside his main troops up on a hill to his far right. I oringally rode them closer hoping to bait him, but he scared me off with several missile units. Meantime my xbow cav were peppering some of his spearmen and archers as they marched forward to meet my troops.

I decided I needed to try and engage him as 1) I am the attacker (surprisingly aggressive AI) 2) his missile troops outnumbered mine, so waiting is not a good option. I ran 2 groups of vikes at him and managed to tangle with his archers as they didn't run away fast enough and the 1 and half missile units I had kept peppering his other unts while I advanced with my men spread out to avoid too many casualities.

Back to my busy general killer Cavs, they were tired out a bit from chasing some archers off, but I brought them back in now hitting the other archers admidist the AI foot soldiers while quickly running my own troops up so that the cav wouldn't get completely annilated. Managed to rout them, though they did rally up with some incoming arbs and more archers on a hill near their flag. Ran my tired cav, uphill after them, letting them do the brunt of the fighting until my other foot units could arrive. Did a nice surround and charge, managed to pull it off, though my men were exhausted and battling up hill.

Also simulataneously, ran after some HA, nearly off the screen, my Cav were exhausted, now brought in my 2 reserve units (more cav) and chased the HA off and routed them. My general, a rk unit himself, finally gets into the action, attacking some archers on that last hill and taking out some nasty xbows that routed one of my cav units and a hand to hand unit .

Overall, the 8 cav units (9 including my general) saved the day, on a hilly map yet! Might even start bringing more of those guys, the cav were fun and hung in there.