17th century

**Rodion Romanovich** · 08-18-2006, 08:39

17th century

This is a multiple players alternate history, where the decisions are made primarily by posting here, but also to some extent by PM. The first turn the players will also need to do research about their factions, if needed with each others' assistance. The outcome of actions is decided at the end of each chapter/turn. Rules and more details about the system is listed at the bottom of this post.

PROLOGUE

The year is 1609. After the defeat of the Armada and the de facto independence of the Netherlands, Spain is no longer the major power in Europe. England has through diplomacy and warfare successfully prevented many invasions and with it's colonies and fleet become a power of considerable importance after a century of internal problems. The newly independent Netherlands have developed very effective trade and is a flourishing nation with an untraditional power structure, open-mindedness to trade and an effective fleet, but with limited offensive capabilities. The Holy roman empire is comparatively stable, even though many external threats are in the process of building up. Russia has gone from being a number of smaller principalities occupied by mongols to, under the leadership of Muscovy, become a large empire intent on expanding further west. The Ottoman empire might be expanding well inland, but their naval domination has been limited since the battle of Lepanto many decades earlier.

It is a time when many nations are about equal in power, but also a time of instability where the strategies of the leaders could have huge consequences and make one nation insignificant, while another becomes an empire.

Map of 1600 AD: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm

Tasks for this turn:
1. first choose a faction to play as (examples: Denmark, England, France, HRE, Netherlands, Ottoman empire, Papacy, Poland, Prussia, Russia, Spain, Sweden). After choosing faction, make a post in this thread to reserve that faction. The first who posts that he wants a certain faction gets that faction.

2. make some research about your faction. This information will be available to all players, and is later to be used to plan your strategies. The knowledge about what happened after 1609 is supposed to be used to better understand the present situation in 1609, not to be abused as hindsight - I'll deliberately lay out the story in a way that prevents hindsight that couldn't have been known at the time from having any effect (after the first chapters it'll become clear what I mean by this). Things to research:
a. name of your leader, and of the living heirs of your leader
b. your current alliances in 1609. Look at which alliances were broken in the coming 50 years and why, to try and find information about the nature and strength of the alliances at this time
c. current pacts/leagues (with pact I mean a bunch of nations all in alliance with each others, the pacts must also be public whereas alliances can be of a more secret character)
d. current wars that your nation is engaged in
e. regions that historically rebelled against your nation during the period 1609 to around 1648, and why. Did any of the rebellions happen at critical times during wars with outside nations, or did the rebellions for other reasons have greater effect than their military strength alone would imply?
f. a list of the major military campaigns, crucial economical conflicts and other major events during the period 1609 to around 1648 for your nation
g. in 1609, how is your army organized? how many men are available through conscription? how many men constitute a standing army? what equipment and training have they got? how is the quality of the artillery? and how did these things change in the coming 50 years?
h. how well is your nation doing economically? are you in debt or is the economy flourishing? which are the key strategic locations that gives you income? tax, trade routes/tolls, farming or industries?
i. which countries are your major trading partners at this time and what products do they buy/sell from/to you?
j. how centralized is rule? what is your role as leader? military defender of your people? reformer? if your rule isn't centralized, is local unhappiness most directed towards you or the local rulers?
k. what is your leader's religion? what is the stance of different religions in your nation - acceptance, tolerance, non-tolerance or persecution?
l. what's the social situation for farmers, workers etc.? are they in a position to rebel over their social situations?
m. are there any provinces of your nation that are eager to break off and form an own country? i.e. Portugal for Spain etc.

PLAYERS

Here the players commanding the nations will be listed for reference when during play you need to contact them by PM for diplomatic deals.
Brandenburg - Warluster (previously: Csar, King of Atlantis)
Denmark - played by me (previously: Orb) (Christian IV)
England - King Kurt (James I)
France - Franconius (Louis XIII)
HRE and Austria - Bopa the Magyar (Ferdinand von Böhmen)
Netherlands - Kagemusha
Ottoman empire - Randarkmaan
Papacy - played by me
Poland - Marshal Murat (Sigismund III Vasa)
Russia - IrishArmenian (Vasili IV)
Spain - SwordsMaster (Philippe III)
Sweden - Destroyer of Hope (Gustav II Adolph)
Transylvania - played by me (previously: Silver Rusher) (Gabor Béthlen)
Venice - Ignoramus

RULES/INFO ABOUT HOW THE INTERACTIVE WORKS

- Your objectives: the objective is to achieve as much as possible in all these fields: conquest of provinces, conquest of strategic positions, strengthening the economy and controlling trade, having an appearance of strength and determination to outside threats by successfully defending and counter-attacking aggressors, have a good diplomatic rumor, and help spread whatever religion you choose. All these factors will be added together and the factions which achieved most in all these aspects will be winners by the end of the game.

- First turn - in the prologue turn you'll not make any decisions but only do research about your faction.

- How to play - every turn, I'll list questions about the most relevant matters for the player to decide about. However, each turn it's also possible to decide about things that aren't listed under that turn. Examples of things that you can decide are listed here for reference during the game:
* thing made publicly in this thread:
a. declaring war
b. hiring mercenaries
c. propaganda - if your nation wants to use propaganda actions it's posted as a public proclamation in the public thread. This can also be a general call for, say "the Catholic cause" etc. but also actions for your own population. Normal actions that aren't explicit propaganda can also have propaganda effects.
d. choosing stance on religion, and the leader's religion - this will affect relations with the pope, relations with other countries, relations with local rulers etc.
* things made by sending a PM to me that turn (sometimes this information risks to leak out to the public forum):
e. reorganizing your army - this is made by PM, but info will leak out
f. diplomatic discussions - it'll always leak out that a meeting has taken place, but very seldom what was said during the meeting, unless the two parts wish to make an official proclamation as result of the meeting. Because some of the diplomatic correspondence can leak out, try to make the PMs with historical phrasing, and it's also a good reason to, even if you're planning on backstabbing, not expressing such things too explicitly in the PMs... The diplomatic discussion in a turn may only be carried out as a series of max 3 PMs, i.e. 1. offer, 2. counter-offer/accept/decline, 3. accept/decline/counter-offer to consider for next turn/suggest discussions continue next turn. The reason for this rule is to make the discussion fast enough to not delay chapters, but also to simulate some of the difficulties of diplomatic discussion and not make the diplomacy an overly effective tool. The PMs from the correspondence should be sent to me by PM each turn so I know which deals took place so I can determine the outcome of the turn.
g. choosing where to launch offensives and which tactics and key targets to use - you're allowed make very complex strategies with conditional plans and diversions etc. Just remember it must be logistically feasible within the length of the chapter. Also remember that pushing soldiers too hard can result in undisciplined behavior, mutiny and desertion etc.
h. starting war without formal declaration
i. determining what to do about rebels - you decide which and how many troops, what tactics they are to use etc. I'll ask more specific questions and give the suitable player options for how to act when a rebellion takes place
j. choosing whether to use your own leader in combat - using the leader in combat can boost morale, but also keeps him away from home which may be tempting to some rebels, and it also puts him at the risk of dying in action. If the leader has gone to the front, the other nations will know it before long through hints in the public thread (this thread).
* other decisions:
k. you can decide about almost anything you can think of that isn't very historically unlikely, say send away mercenaries without pay, choose whether to kill prisoners of war or not, etc. etc. Those decisions can be sent to me by PM. Bear in mind that every character affected by your decisions has some form of power which he can use against you.

- NOTE! My PM box is of limited size so please try to stuff all the decisions that need to be sent to me by PM into a single PM if possible.

CURRENT STATUS

chapter 12 in progress

**cegorach** · 08-18-2006, 08:50

If anyone needs information about Poland PM me.

I dare say I know everything about this period of history

**Franconicus** · 08-18-2006, 10:55

Very interesting! I have to re-read it, though

**Rodion Romanovich** · 08-18-2006, 11:24

Thank you!

I'm already planning the first chapter, so I hope there'll be enough players. Three would be a bit too few, five to thirteen would be perfect.

**SwordsMaster** · 08-18-2006, 18:19

I'll take Spain if thats ok. I dare say I know everything about Spain in this period.

**Rodion Romanovich** · 08-18-2006, 18:47

Yes it's ok, since you were the first to wish to lead Spain your wish is granted

**Vladimir** · 04-11-2007, 12:30

I've ran out of fingernail and my digits are in severe peril.

**Rodion Romanovich** · 04-11-2007, 16:58

CHAPTER 17 - it is now: March 1st, 1617 AD
...the decisions made will affect the events from March 1st, 1617 AD to August 1st, 1617 AD

Faced by the converging Swedish and PU army north of Magdeburg, Spinola chooses to retreat south, crossing the Elbe in great haste south of Magdeburg, and preparing defensive positions at the river crossings, while trying to acquire local mercenaries to turn the 24,000 into 34,000. The Swedish army has met up with around 15,000 PU troops and the nearly 45,000 troops pursue the Spanish army to the river crossings, where they however avoid crossing at the most heavily defended positions. Instead, they cross the river at Magdeburg in April, and march south, creating a wedge between Spinola and Tilly and threatening to cut off the recently improved supply lines to Spinola's position. At the beginning of May, Spinola is trapped between the Elbe and the Swedish army, which tries to force him to either abandon his fortifications, move through the neutral Saxony, or engage the Swedish army in battle on open ground. Meanwhile, the Dutch and English forces in the Southern Netherlands have begun moving towards Tilly's position in Hesse-Kassel.

In the middle of May, Spinola engages the Swedish army in battle. Seeing a gap between the position of the PU forces on the Swedish left flank, and their main force, he quickly pins the Swedish cavalry by moving to threaten their right flank, while charging the heavier cavalry towards the PU cavalry on the Swedish left flank, successfully routing their entire force of cavalry. The PU artillery crews are suddenly exposed, and charged by the Spanish cavalry. In order to protect the exposed artillery, the PU infantry advances, but are met by heavy, concentrated bombardment from the Spanish artillery, and 2 rapidly advancing tercios. The Swedish cavalry, still concentrated on their right flank, is unable to reach the left flank quickly enough to prevent the rout of the PU flank. With the Swedish left flank wide open, the Spanish prepare to roll up the Swedish flank. At this time, the Swedish army brings up its second line of reserves, reestablishing the seemingly weakened line before the Spanish manouver is able to surround it, and the Swedish line is able to deal far more damage on the advancing tercios than expected, almost reestablishing their line entirely, and simultaneously threatening the Spanish right flank with their cavalry, which has by now routed the Spanish light cavalry sent to pin them. With a massive advantage on their right flank and a sufficiently secured left flank, the Swedish charge the now exposed Spanish artillery with their heavy cavalry. The Spanish heavy cavalry is still behind the Swedish left flank in pursuit of the routed PU forces, but now turns back towards the battle. While the Swedish left flank is still exposed, there are still too many Swedish reserves that have not yet been committed to battle. Simultaneously, the Swedish heavy cavalry, having captured the Spanish cannons, begin a heavy bombardment of the Spanish left flank from their rear. with Swedish advantage in both cavalry and artillery, and a marginal advantage in infantry, the scattered Spanish cavalry forces flee the field, followed shortly by the Spanish infantry. The Swedish carry out a careful pursuit of the defeated army which is still comparatively strong in cavalry. At the end of the battle, the PU have suffered 1,000 killed and 3,000 deserters, and the Swedish have lost 5,000 dead and 200 deserters. The Spanish have lost nearly 8,000 dead and 7,000 captured. As the Swedish continue pursuing the defeated army for another month, it loses another 7,000 to desertion. At the end of June, the Swedish force numbers 35,000 men of which 10,000 are PU troops, 18,000 are Swedish troops, and 7,000 are mercenaries. Spinola's army has been reduced to a mere 12,000, who retreat southwest. The Swedish soon give up the pursuit and instead return to the other side of the Elbe, and march south towards the exposed Prague. The garrison is smaller than 2,500 men, and at the end of July they assault the city and successfully capture it, leaving 3,000 PU troops to garrison it, and continue south with 31,500 men.

Meanwhile, in late May, Tilly received reinforcements from 16,000 troops from Northern Italy, leaving only 4,000 to garrison Venice. The Anglo-Dutch army has so far, like Tilly, avoided open battle and marched south. Now reinforced to a strength of 40,000 men, Tilly goes on the offensive against the Protestant 35,000 men near Heidelberg in early June, first manouvering in a wide arc to approach them from the north, via their supply. Tilly has a slight advantage in both artillery and cavalry. The battle begins with an indecisive artillery duel, followed by an advance by Tilly's infantry. In the ensuing musket duels, the Dutch and English troops are at a slight disadvantage against the Catholic numbers, even though they are equipped with more modern and faster-reloading muskets. The Protestants withdraw at the end of the day, having suffered over 4,800 casualties while inflicting only 3,000, most casualties being infantry. The 30,200 are pursued by Tilly's 37,000, who engage them in a second battle near Mainz. Although they have been reinforced by a small number of local troops and mercenaries, they fail to assemble more than 33,000. Tilly again engages them with the same strategy, weakening them by artillery bombardment and a controlled infantry advance, where his superior numbers again give a small but sufficient advantage to force them into retreat. The Catholic cavalry harasses the retreating troops, capturing 3,000, killing another 2,000, and around 2,000 desert. At the end of July, Tilly breaks off the pursuit. Meanwhile, the 10,000 Catholic League troops at Württemberg end the siege of the city by assault. 7,000 troops are thus freed up and link up with Spinola's remaining 12,000 who have fallen back to the fortified positions at Bayreuth. Tilly in his march towards the Swedish troops at Vienna passes Regensburg in late July. The Dutch have begun training of an additional 10,000 troops at home.

In the Mediterranean, the Spanish warships engage the Venetian in the Adriatic Sea. The Venetians suffer a disastrous defeat and their remaining 10 warships and 5 galleys flee towards the Venetian Eastern Mediterranean possessions. The Protestant Coalition raids Spanish ports near Gibraltar, and scout extensively around their fleet at Gibraltar to prevent the fireship incident from being repeated. Merchants are searched and escorted as they pass the straits. At Cork, the Spanish land 3,000 reinforcements as well as supplies for the city, and 10 Spanish galleons outside the city engage 5 English warships that are blockading the port, and drive them back, neither side loses any ships. In response, the English gather around 15 warships in the area. Around 15 Spanish warships sink several smaller English and Dutch vessels in the Channel, but retreat after the gathering of the full English strength in the area. As the Protestant Coalition force is informed of the presence of these 15 Spanish warships, they detach 25 warships from their Gibraltar fleet to engage it. The Spanish fleet retreats into a Portuguese bay, where the Spanish have built up a huge concealed battery of cannons for this purpose. 3 Protestant Coalition ships are soon sunk as they try to trap the Spanish force in the bay, and the remaining retreat in disorder, allowing the Spanish to damage 5 others, however the Spanish ships are unable to pursue them due to 1 sunk ship and 3 damaged. In the East Indies, the Dutch forces conclude the conquest of the Phillippines, after a larger naval battle against the Spanish fleets in the area. 2 Danish, 5 Dutch and 5 Dutch EIC ships defeat 10 Spanish ships, sinking 1, capturing 1 and losing none. In the Americas, there are about equal losses on both the English and Spanish side. The Spanish intercepting of merchants at Afria has temporarily ended, possibly to allow for the mustering of the fleet needed for the operations in the English Channel. More than half of the Spanish fleet still seems to be trapped in the Mediterranean. The naval forces outside the Mediterranean are estimated to less than 25, and an additional 15 belonging to the Spanish EIC, while those inside are estimated to less than 45. The Protestant Coalition fleet at Gibraltar is approximately 55 ships strong, while their fleets in the Americas are over 12 ships strong, and their fleets in the East Indies, including the Dutch EIC, amount to over 40 ships. The Protestant Coalition fleet at Gibraltar is experiencing increasing problems with supply, due to the Spanish raids north of it, which has made it difficult for unescorted or lightly escorted merchants to bring supplies to the fleet. In Portugal, there are rumors of rebel forces assembling an army to declare Portuguese independence due to the weakened Spanish presence in the Iberian peninsula. Meanwhile, the English troops outside Cork are threatened by similar problems. At least 3,000 locals have joined the Spanish garrison, and there are possibly more assembling outside the city. With the Spanish reinforcements in the city, they could be able to successfully sally forth and break the siege.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth prepares industrialization of its cities. There are French troop movements in Luxembourg, with the assembling of 28,000 men near the borders of both the Holy Roman Empire and the Netherlands there. French troops occupy Benghazi after a treaty with the Ottomans.

BRANDENBURG

1. plans?
a. keep your troops under the command of the Swedish
b. as a, but suggest a withdrawal north
c. as a, but suggest an assault on Vienna
d. withdraw your troops

ENGLAND

1. how distribute the fleet?

2. plans in the HRE?
a. keep the troops under Dutch control
b. withdraw them to secure the home front
c. as b, but replace the withdrawn troops by mercenaries given to Dutch command

3. Ireland
a. lift the siege, pull back to defensive ground, Dublin for example, and reinforce Ireland before trying to confront Cork and the Spanish again
b. maintain the siege, and prepare for battle against sallying opponents
c. blockade with 15 warships from the English Channel, and hope to starve out the now larger garrison

FRANCE

1. plans?

HRE and AUSTRIA

1. plans in HRE?

NETHERLANDS

1. plans in HRE?

2. plans for the fleets?

OTTOMAN EMPIRE

1. plans?

POLAND

1. how better encourage the industrialization of the suggested cities?
a. take those lands that are under your direct control and industrialize them by investing your own money. Hopefully they will, if successful, tempt the nobles to try and industrialize their own possessions too
b. as a, but sell these industries, once created, to merchants at lower cost than they're worth. Also lower tolls to encourage more trade and industry
c. pay money to support merchants and insdustries

2. which industries should primarily be created/encouraged?

3. intervention in the HRE affairs by attacking targets such as the Swedish at Vienna, the Kaiser's Silesia, or Brandenburg's Ducal Prussia? Or possibly try to gain a casus belli by some diplomatical intrigue, to be able to attack someone next turn or even later?

RUSSIA

1. Wladyslaw's terms are the following: Wladyslaw becomes Tsar, while Vassili gains control over Novograd and Nizny Novograd with surroundings as a boyar. The Duma will maintain a high degree of influence. The Russian army will be formed of both militia, and troops fielded by the boyars
a. accept it, although not very good, it could be a starting point for gaining more influence again
b. decline it, as it will mean taking land from those who were loyal to you, an attempt to Wladyslaw to outmanouvre you
c. instead suggest other terms. A joint rule isn't common in these days so there's no good example to copy the terms from, instead you must think up your own
d. assemble your forces and try to conquer Moscow

SPAIN

1. Military plans in HRE. Spinola has now command of 18,000 troops of which 7,000 belong to the Catholic League. The Imperial, Spanish and Catholic League troops hold the most important cities in Ansbach, Bayreuth, Hesse-Kassel and Württemberg. This is about 70% of the land of the rebels.
a. seek another engagement with the Swedish army, to destroy it. Coordinate with Tilly. Leave only smaller garrisons in the captured lands, to slow down the advance of Dutch, English and Brandenburg troops.
b. try to hold the captured territories
c. advance towards Brandenburg again. It should be held by less than 10,000 troops. A successful campaign there could hurt Swedish supply situation. If the Swedish army appears again, retreat south or towards Tilly and avoid battle altogether if possible, even battles at river positions. Let the small Catholic League garrisons in captured regions slow down and harass the pursuing enemies
d. abandon all the captured regions, and fall back to Bavaria and the 7,000 Catholic League troops there. The League will probably muster some 5,000 more during the autumn, and prepare defense against the Dutch and English, if they come back. Hold major cities and await Tilly's return from victory at Vienna

2. In Ireland
a. sally forth before the English can reinforce their besieging force. At least 7,000 Spanish, of which 3,000 are Irish, against 10,000 English should be enough to break out, though possibly with high casualties
b. stay in the city, and try to hold it. It has supplies for the winter, but no longer.
c. send a fleet to supply the garrison, to stockpile enough supplies to defend the city until next spring.
d. send a fleet to extract the garrison

3. how distribute the fleet?
a. gather the 15 that are outside the Iberian coast, and the ships inside the Mediterranean, and let them both sail to meet up outside. The Protestant Coalition should have trouble blockading the passage entirely, and hopefully the two fleets will be able to meet without losing too many ships to the Protestant fleet due to the winds at Gibraltar. This would mean gathering 60 ships minus those lost in the rush against the 55 Protestant Coalition ships at Gibraltar. The entire thing would then turn into the most massive naval battle in history, hopefully with Spanish victory or at least suffiently high Protestant losses to force them to retreat.
b. try to have 15 of your fastest ships break out of the Mediterranean, and join the 15 other outside, and use the resulting 30 minus losses in the breakout to continue harassing the supplies to the enemy fleet at Gibraltar
c. use the 15 to raid supplies to the enemy fleet
d. use the 15 to raid enemy targets everywhere, supplies to the fleet, merchants from their colonies, etc. Move quickly and don't stay long anywhere, and avoid regular naval battles. This will have smaller impact on the PC fleet supply level than c, but could cause greater damage in total, depending on your goals and strategy.

4. plans in Italy?
a. assault Florence, and try to hunt down and destroy the rebel field army in battle too. After succeeding in this, keep 3,000 men more than what the rebels may have left, and send the rest to other fronts. As planned before, burn the city after capturing it.
b. try to make peace with Florence, offering them independence. Keep at least 6,000 to secure the other regions, such as Genoa, from revolting too, while sending the rest to other fronts
c. send Spinola from the HRE (that means, without the 7,000 Catholic League troops he has, meaning he will have only 12,000) to Northern Italy, and defeat the revolt more easily, and assault Florence. Burn the city after capturing it to make examples
d. as a, but don't leave more than what's needed to garrison Florence, then stockpile Florence for siege, and send off the remaining forces to other fronts immediately. Make sure the plans in other regions are such that you will be able to return quickly enough that the enemies can't successfully assault or starve out the city before your return. This requires that they don't receive support from abroad and grow much in size in the coming turn(s).

SWEDEN

1. Of the captured troops, many are mercenaries, which are available for recruitment into your army. You have a total pool of nearly 10,000 to recruit from. The city of Vienna is held by around 5,000 troops, and Wallenstein has at least 2,000 raiding troops outside the city. Winter is coming.
a. recruit 10,000
b. recruit 5,000
c. recruit none

2. plan
a. assault Vienna.
b. besiege Vienna. Hope to draw Tilly into battle outside the city. If he is defeated, Vienna will be easy to assault and the land will then lay wide open, and the Kaiser will probably open for favorable negotiations. If he wins, retreat to Prague or if the defeat is huge, to Magdeburg or even further north.
c. immediately fall back to Prague and positions north of that, in order to secure supply and rest over the winter. Try to recruit militia from the earlier Bohemian revolt in the vicinity of Prague during the winter. Possibly negotiate with leading Protestants in Bohemia and offer an independent Bohemia if they muster enough troops to support the Swedish troops. Also possibly send envoys to Gabor Béhtlen of Transylvania, in case he is willing to attack Hungaria next spring.
d. retreat to Magdeburg over the winter, defend the supply, and if on favorable terms engage the opponents there

3. coordination with the PC
a. try to convince more Danish assistance
b. suggest the Dutch and English troops fall back to defense, but send 10,000 of their troops to link up with yours
c. suggest the Dutch and English take advantage of Tilly being tied down at the Swedish army, by recapturing the land they took at Hesse-Kassel, Bayreuth and Ansbach, and also possibly besiege Trier and Mainz.
d. don't bother about what they do

VENICE

1. military plans
a. if the Spanish withdraw from the Mediterranean, use troops from Crete, and the remnants of the fleet, to attack Venice. It is held by 4,000 HRE troops. Once Venice is retaken, hopefully the Spanish troops at Florence can be forced to lift their siege due to their problems at home and after their defeat in the HRE. If these things don't happen, avoid battle and try to fortify the position on Crete. Repair the fleet as much as possible, and avoid battle with the Spanish fleet
b. something else, specify what

**Rodion Romanovich** · 04-11-2007, 17:35

Let's say deadline is Wednesday next week if it's ok

**Kagemusha** · 04-11-2007, 19:55

Great chapter Legio.

Altough im wondering what orders my army was following.

**SwordsMaster** · 04-11-2007, 20:10

HMCIM Philippe of Spain will welcome the venetian embassadors if the Doge wishes to send them. HMCIM hopes the Doge does so before he loses the rest of His vessels.