MA Update #2 Discussion

[shifty157]

I know. Doesn't invalidate the point though.. he pointed out that the Angles weren't Saxons, which is what I was cheering for.

Nor were the Picts, Jutes, Celts, or Romans.

[HighLord z0b]

Any thoughts on having Huscarls as mercenaries on the mainland or rebels units in the north? After 1066 the Huscarls that escaped went east to become mercenaries or become part of the Varangian Guard. Although I understand they were probably on the way out at this stage.

[shifty157]

Youre right in saying that they were on their way out but they were still around. Denmark may be given an actual Huscarl unit but other than that youll find them only as mercenaries and rebels.

[Tazmanius]

I suppose the map has been finalised by now...but in the hope it hasn't...

First,a question..what are the current province numbers in the game?
Second..Regarding the British Isles...fair enough that Scotland has 5 provinces under it's cultural umbrella...but...what of Wales?
Wales may be seen as a rebel nation and insignificant...but...for the first 200 years or so of the game..while Scotland was technically a vassal state of England...Wales was oft in rebellion.

Personally..I would like to see...If Scotland get 5 and Ireland 3...Wales also get 3 provinces...North,South and East...North would be Gwynedd which was the heartbase of Welsh resistance.....South Deheubarth...and the East,quite convenient in game terms due to the mountainous division in Wales(In game at least)...Could be the much disputed marches...
The marches were almost constantly at war and many great Lords cut their teeth in battles in this Geography.

With regard to England...I would be hopeful that the team rethink their Geographical mindset and perhaps divide it as follows....Cornwall(Wessex),Kent,EastAnglia,Mercia,Lancaster and York....this gives 6 provinces...with the potential for the quick acquisition of a 7th in the Welsh March..although the march and Lancaster/York would be rebel at the start..to replicate the harrowing that took place,the rebellions and to limit English Power to an extent.
Perhaps some scripted uprisings,if possible,from the Welsh....?

Some may complain there is too much emphasis on England etc. in the Medieval period..but She had a massive influence on it....and the 100 years war is one of the most recognised of all the medieval conflicts...this of course leads us to look at how France and England,and their environs should be divided up...and,although technically,France is outside the scope of this discussion..I shall touch on it...as it goes hand in hand with England due to their rivalry.
Lands on mainland france should try to include,where possible,as may of the following....Brittany,Normandy,Maine,Anjou,Poitou,Guyenne,Gascony,Toulouse,Champagne,Burgundy,Orlean s,Blois....and possibly others...along with some fringe areas that played roles..such as Flanders etc.Perhaps Calais should be included as a small city state..under French control but a goal of the English(granted,lmid-later medieval...but a major event in 100 years war.)

[shifty157]

That map has yet to be finalized. THe recent confirmation of a higher than expected faction limit (30 as opposed to originally believed 20) has sparked some debate as to whether to increase the scope of the map farther east. Thats still under debate though. Aside from that, redoing province layouts of already established areas is an ongoing process in an effort to better represent the area.

As to the province limit. This has not yet been confirmed for MTW2 so for the moment we are creating the map under the assumption of the RTW province limit which we currently have maxed out.

There are many reasons that we cant/wont divide Wales into three seperate provinces. Most important among these is the fact that it would make the british isles much more powerful than they actually were historically. SO many provinces in such a small area would give the conqueror an substantially higher income per turn. COmbined with the capacity for increased unit production it would make the conqueror entirely too powerful.

As to your proposals for England and France ill direct our mapper to have a look at your post.

[Tazmanius]

Hmm..
Ok..in reply to your response...so..in a mod that points towards historical accuracy..you,to all intent and purpose,emasculate Wales and the effect it has on English policy?
Edward the First and his Castle building becomes,effectively,a sideshow?

You mention that having too many provinces in such a small area will make England overly powerful(looks to Scotland that now has 5 proposed provinces..plus 3 Irish provinces)...
So while England is probably occupied in France...Scotland will become a great medieval power..erm..right!

If Wales..which...Should be split into North,South and East provinces...East being the marches...(Even the MTW2 map cries out for this)..would unbalance things..then why does Ireland have 3 projected provinces?Ireland in Medieval times had little influence on the development of any major policy..aside from the limited intervention of the Normans....led by a Welsh landholder...
If you are worried about economics or military power being unbalanced then reduce the income and resource wealth accordingly...limit the recruitment using your new system..or via the ZoR system if it's along Rome TW lines game mechanics for recruiting troops from areas.
Also..make the rebel provinces stronger and,especially in terms of North Wales..should it ever be included..(Gwynedd)..more likely to rebel if captured etc...The south was more easily subjugated....although the marches also posed problems.

Glad to see you're considering the French situation...as it does have a huge influence on the period and,as it currently stands in game...tends to have the wrong feel for what was a very long and bitter rivalry...lasting a lot longer than the Hundred Years War.Technicaly..England and France were at each others throats from the Conquest onwards...even,in attitude at least,going beyond the medieval period.

As far as extending the map further East goes..can't see a lot of point..better to concentrate on what we have and try to make it as good as possible.Got a map off the net showing dispositions of nations etc. circa 1100..which shows a lot of states and also defines a lot of possible provinces including the many themes and Ducal states of the Eastern Roman Empire.Your mapmaker probably has this already..but if needed I could email it to him?

Now for a couple of quick questions..

1/Will you be trying to accurately model unit sizes for the mod?Within the games limits of course..i.e 1 man equals 5..10 etc.Would be good if this could be modelled as often..eg Crecy,Agincourt etc. there was a huge disparity in numbers between opposing armies that the game..in current form..can't accurately portray.

2/How will you represent,especially as the period progresses,that the National characteristics play some part...eg England technically having the best trained and ,possibly first,professional national army..or the disorganised and arrogant nature(With regard to the lower classes) of the French etc...As these factors played a large part in their conflicts?

[A living god]

For a pap with 30 factions I would want to have about 300 proviences, if that is possible.

[shifty157]

Hey. Im out of town at the moment and i dont have time to give a decent answer to your post. If you want to hang on a few more days when i get back ill sit down and reply.

[HighLord z0b]

I'm afraid that the province limit is just that, a limit, therefore we are forced to make judgements and generalise about different areas even though we would love to be able to have a lot more provinces if we could.

I don't think we're going to "emasculate Wales" however as they probably aren't going to be a playable faction at this stage we cannot afford to divide those provinces up any more.

Who knows maybe the province limit will be higher than expected and there may be some changes, however I daresay that we would probably add more provinces in the middle east if we can. Even if we don't extend the map east, there are some quite large provinces that our map maker said he'd like to divide if he could.

As far as increasing unit sizes, I don't think that's on the agenda at the moment. It's very true that it would be great to have much bigger armies as that would be more realistic, however the MTW2 engine just cannot handle it unfortunately.

[shifty157]

Thanks HZ for addressing these questions and suggestions.