First impressions on mp

[Puzz3D]

Also, there were many battles in MTW which ended in a war of attrition dozens of tired men slugging out in a true last man standing situation. I even remember that once we had to chase out one, yes one man that was still fighting in a 4v4 to get victory!!!

That was caused by battlefield upgrades, and using too many upgrades on high morale swords. We got LongJohn to remove the battlefield upgrades in MTW/VI v2.01, but swords still had too much upgrading and the discount on ranged unit upgrades allowed too much upgrading on those units as well. MTW is not the standard of comparision that I would use. In Samurai Wars for MTW/VI v2.01, we don't have units fighting to the last man except perhaps the hatamoto and ninja which are small high honor units. AMP and Swoosh helped identify a problem with small cav units being too effective at the end of a battle in Samurai Wars, and we corrected that problem.

Battlefield upgrades are back in M2TW. Their effect might not be as strong as in MTW, but if the overall morale level has been raised, then even weaker battlefield upgrades could easily be too much towards the end of the battle. The battle engine only operates well over a relatively small range of morale.

[econ21]

Just out of interest - how are MPers finding archers and missiles? In the SP game so far, they seem to fire rather slowly. They remind me of arbs - slow but lethal. I can't imagine they are very useful in MP as it seems you could close within a volley or two. But then again, I've never played MP and gather arbs were popular.

[x-dANGEr]

To the "vets". Why do you get the feeling that what you liked is what's perfect? I really don't care if a battle ends with 20 men left or 300 men left, I really don't care if upgrades are in or not, I really don't care if a unit can move 140 m/sec instead of 139 m/sec.. And I'm sure, most of the community doesn't.

As for the lag matter.. I'm saying that if you can have a SP game with 6000 men with no lag, you should be able to have it the same way in MP. Though, due to Athlon in-compatibilty issues, I thought that maybe Athlon users had to do some extra calcs or something, and by that lag the game?..

[Orda Khan]

BI works the same way (one player one faction) and it works well. Basically it is forcing the players to play with different faction and to find factions that work well together. Lot more factions are played this way.

Exactly........it forces you to choose separate factions. Do you think that is good? Personally I would prefer a choice.
Back in MTW days I enjoyed many faction v faction battles and the replays of these battles looked like epic historical battles. What is the chance of this type of enjoyment when forced to select different factions? It means many factions will be used. Big deal, it means I can not host what I would like to host. I prefer something that looks realistic but now I do not have that choice

........Orda

[Orda Khan]

To the "vets". Why do you get the feeling that what you liked is what's perfect? I really don't care if a battle ends with 20 men left or 300 men left, I really don't care if upgrades are in or not, I really don't care if a unit can move 140 m/sec instead of 139 m/sec.. And I'm sure, most of the community doesn't.

I am sure that most of the vets would not not think what they liked was perfect but it was far better balanced than the gameplay that followed with each new release. The problem is x-dANGEr you are almost talking to yourself. The vast majority of MP vets left these forums ages ago. Those who remained gave up on MP when RTW appeared and Total War .Org became almost exclusively SP orientated. There are other sites of course where you could pose this question but it would be to little avail. With luck maybe M2TW will attract some MP interest again but to achieve this the gameplay and balance must at least match previous titles

.......Orda

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

STW, Monarch, was Balance. Me,myself, never playing STW MP, the the SamWars mod for VI, will say a piece for my fellow MTW Vets. RTW was a awful game. Bad MP gameplay,etc...
STW, Yes Monarch, only had X number of units, and a army could only hold 16 units total, but it was balance. Nothing wrong with the gameplay, exustaion bars,so on so forth. MTW/VI was better, Unit Wise. Same Great Gameplay and such.

To Clarify that, let me see if I can explain it good..
Alot of People Monarch, Are STW Vets, or MTW Vets (like myself,which I'm pround of) played TW for many months or years before RTW came out. You could say we pave the road for MP on RTW/BI and even MTW2 for you new people to MP, like you Monarch and others. When RTW/BI was a flop, Sure, Clans like Grey Wolves, BHC, and RTK and Cetiblero for example,stayed on RTW for a bit, but the rest left, ethier back to MTW, like Aggony or 7Bear7Bottom, or just leave for good, like Kenkicua (sorry for misspelling) or FF (not sure). That Leaves only a HandFul of Vets around, with alot of "newer" people,so to speak, on RTW. Nothing wrong with that, but when none of the old vets are willing to play any more TW MP anymore,then you got a ploblem m8..

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Can you expand on this please hoetje? It was one of the best fixes in MTW when more than one player could select the same faction.

A new player and/or rtw player joined our game. He was in an other team and took also the english faction. The game was not starting. He started a discussion. A very annoying feature.

How bad was the lag in the 3v3? Was it considerably worse than the lag people are reporting even in 2v2?

After the evening today I am sure, that I will sell MTW2. I cannot imagine, that they can fix the lag problems. The lag is this "beautiful" graphic engine I think. Or who can notify about positive things about the multiplayer?

Has anyone tried XP Athlon v Intel to check how that runs?

yesterday we tried a 1vs1 XP vs Intel. At the end the game got big network problems. We couldn't finish the battle.

[Puzz3D]

Shogun had like 12 units in the whole game, M2TW has over 100, factions with all different units. I think one man and his dog could balance the amount of units shogun has. You shouldn't be comparing M2 to Shogun because Shogun isn't even 100th of the scale that Medieval 2 is.

MTW went to 100 unit types, but they weren't balanced as well as the STW's 12 units and many of them are redundant. In the final version of MTW/VI, the spears and ranged units are so weak that the gameplay degenerates to using only cav and swords. So, you are only using two components of the RPS. That's why the gameplay in STW is more interesting. In addition, fatigue rate and morale level were close to optimal in STW. The game wasn't perfect, and at the time we thought the gameplay would improve with each new version of the game, but that hasn't happened.

I'm not saying Shoguns not good, I never played it however I'm just saying its very unfair comparing to two. Also, I am one of those people who likes variety in their games, different factions, different units, different strategies, Shogun seems to not have much variation. I wouldn't usually say that because I've not played the game but since you're judging M2 without playing it I guess fairs fair.

We made the Samurai Wars mod for MTW/VI, and it has 14 unit types. I can say without any doubt that there is more to do tactically in a Samurai Wars battle than there is in an MTW/VI battle. MTW doesn't really have more variety than STW because players number crunch the unit stats and use only the best units which gives a greatly reduced set of usable units. In STW each unit has a clearly defined purpose within the RPS system which means every unit has an effective counterunit, and all of the unit types are useable. Each unit has to be used correctly or it will loose badly. Also, the dynamics of the gameplay are well adjusted, and the 16 unit armies of STW push the limit of what a very good player can handle.


"I expect CA to maintain the standard of play they set with the first game. It would be to the benefit of all the players if CA did that."

Please clarify this point, I don't really understand it properly

Well, in MTW they went to larger maps, but forgot to optimize the fatigue rate for those larger maps. The fatigue rate was what was used in STW on its small maps. They also switched to purchasing units at valor 0 rather than the valor 2 of STW, but forgot to add in the +4 morale that valor 2 provides. Therefore the game turned into a routfest if you tried to play at the default florins. This lead to players using more florins, but that allowed the rather inexpensive swords to be upgraded to the point where they could defeat cavalry. In VI, +2 morale was added, but it should have been +4 morale. They added armor to most units, but didn't readjust archer effectiveness. Archers were exactly the same effectiveness as in STW which meant they were almost useless in MTW. They went to xbow firing rates that requires 15 minutes to use all the ammo which meant they get too tired and can't hit anything, and also makes for long boring shootouts. They reduced the density of trees which meant trees didn't provide as much cover as they did in STW. Initially, spears were too strong. They adjusted them but they were then too weak. They were left this way despite the opportunity to readjust them in the final v2.01 patch.

In RTW, fatigue rate for running was reduced so much it was no longer a consideration when playing. The running speeds were increased by 50%, and this was coupled with 25% more units and a delay in the response to orders turning the gameplay into "blobbing" attacks. Charge was too effective causing fast routing. The overlap penalty was removed so stacked units became very strong. Battlefield upgrades were brought back. The archers was more effective, but there was no penalty for using them in deep formations. I can't think of anything else right now, but there are other issues with RTW MP.

[x-dANGEr]

I am sure that most of the vets would not not think what they liked was perfect but it was far better balanced than the gameplay that followed with each new release. The problem is x-dANGEr you are almost talking to yourself. The vast majority of MP vets left these forums ages ago. Those who remained gave up on MP when RTW appeared and Total War .Org became almost exclusively SP orientated. There are other sites of course where you could pose this question but it would be to little avail. With luck maybe M2TW will attract some MP interest again but to achieve this the gameplay and balance must at least match previous titles

.......Orda

The vast majority of MP then left, but a new community is growing, at least a new MP player base is growing.. Sure, there might be a lot of immature kids through it, though, it was the same case with MTW, except you couldn't notice because of the lobby "features" I guess. (Maybe in STW there weren't at all.. Because at that time, I think internet and Computers weren't as popular).

[Orda Khan]

A new player and/or rtw player joined our game. He was in an other team and took also the english faction. The game was not starting. He started a discussion. A very annoying feature.

Sounds like RTW. I left many games due to someone refusing to take a faction that was not already selected. That is something I hoped would be fixed because the longer we stayed in this "Why should I change? You change!" limbo the more likely it seemed that the game would crash for whatever reason.

Request to CA :

Please fix this feature with a patch or MP will be a miserable experience

.......Orda

[tibilicus]

Well found somethign that annoys me. Cavalry. Despite what people say it IS overpowerd. Most good cav costs around 800 each and most good inf around 650 each. Head on head the cavalry is winning. This is still the case even with spears. Slightly disapoitns me as they got rid of it in BI but it's now similar to rtw 1.3 which was a mess..

[tootee]

Why some stay, and why some move on, there are many reasons.. its just part of life. But for sure, those names still appearing on .org since the day i joined .org.. must have a great passion for TW MP, maybe not for the different favour of TW MP, but for sure have or had great expectation for this genre of MP game.


Just a fish's experience..

STW MP was a great experience.. maybe it was because it was first of its kind? I was still learning the rope and getting to know the battle engine and game balance.. the few years was most exciting.. and its japanese :) The game was not free of problems, but the gaming experience was very enjoyable.

MTW.. somehow i missed the trees in STW. I missed yamato and ugly polar. Never knew the fear i always had facing AMP in STW was so enjoyable. I find the MTW MP fun despite issues (like STW but probably different). Spent equal time online as STW.. but generally couldnt recall any memorable battles now. Many clans to play with. More variety of team tactics i find, because factions were different (not like STW); the turk esp enjoyable playing with or vs.

RTW.. graphics was impressive. Didnt like the control interface. Didnt like the roman. Didnt like the cav. Missed the trees in STW. Game not as fun as before. Kinda feel like control and timing was not that important anymore.. hardly see someone with the dancing skill as Magyar on Totomi. Felt like its been a year+ since i stopped being active.

M2TW.. looking forward to it.


Enjoy STW most.. hopefully M2TW MP can let me play for another year with my buddies.

[Cheetah]

Hey goldfish, how are you mate? Nice to see you around.

Do you remember what you said to me after our first 3v3?

Well, news about MTW2 MP is that good to be honest, though I do not have the game as yet, so I cannot confirm or disprove anything.

[cromwell]

Hey Guys, I hope MTW2 MP turns out to be a great experience. I miss the old clan days, great battles between all the powerhouse players. It seemed as though people conducted themselves in a more mature manner.

In my opinion the lag is a result of people's computers not being able to handle the game. In MP your only as fast as the slowest person. When RTW came out there were terrible lag issues. Once people upgrade, or a patch , some how optimizes the network code, we should be good. (I hope)

Really in this day and age, all game companies should be able to put together a good MP experience. Most if not all the RTS games out there, have a good MP interface and experience.

I'm looking forward to picking up this game, on Tuesday this week. I certainly didn't get my money's worth from RTW. So I hope this is better.

Cromwell

[Tera]

I agree with Tootee and Yuuki on this issue, but of course we should adapt a larger view.

Shogun was perhaps, a paradox. From the outside, it only had very few units and all the factions were the same. The graphics were not stellar, and during its period PCs had advanced in a way that made 3v3/4v4 hardly an issue. But this had its distinct advantages in multiplayer combat:

- Battles were largely lag-free (post 1.12) and there was even a way to recover most battles which seemed lost due to connection problems (TTTTTT ;))

- 3v3/4v4 were very popular, epic battles

- All the factions were the same, and there were few units. Easier to balance. Spears. Swords. Cavalry. Missiles. All had a role - sometimes they were not 100% balanced but overall the gameplay was very good, and it was ultimately perfected by 1.03 +. STW 1.12 and MI 1.03 were the best Total War I ever had.

So maybe Shogun's external simplicity contributed to having a more enjoyable and balanced multiplayer. Which in return created a very hardcore and serious community, and combat - although seemingly simpler by MTW/RTW standards - actually got very technical and complicated.

Lastly, the theme was special. Samurai..honour...clans. All that is gone, and the Medieval/Roman setting is different.

--------

MTW was overall good. Like most Shogun veterans, I did not enjoy the first versions of Medieval, but later patches - especially Viking Invasion - fixed many issues. I enjoyed Viking Invasion very much, although it had flaws - for example, Spears really lost their role. Swords, Cavalry and Missiles were the only relevant unit types. Also, the battles - especially on Steppes - tended to become tedious "hold-the-line" wars of attrition, rather than the fast-paced devastating offensive assaults of Shogun. But that is understandable - European Medieval combat was meant to feel different than Japanese one.

- The gameplay was different, but it felt still very enjoyable! You just had to accept the different style and adapt. Steppes on High with the standard European factions was admittedly tedious. But the combos you could make with different maps, eras, factions (Friendly, Late, Mongols, Muslim factions etc) was VERY fun !!! And I do have fond memories of some battles.

- The engine was basically the same as STW.

- Like STW, 3v3/4v4 were popular and enjoyable.

So that was it.

--------------

Rome killed all that. Different engine altogether, which I didn't like at all. Pitiful tactical overview of the battles, and awesome 3-d zooming action which serves no use to the multiplayer experience. The Roman theme filled the community with new people which just didn't match with the previous community. Unit balance, pace of battles, conduct of multiplayer...was all different. Big games impossible...

------------

And I'm waiting for feedback for M2TW. However...

The impossibility of having same factions and the impossibility to play 3v3/4v4 already killed much of the hope. :(

However, if the unit balance and gameplay is good and it is similar to the feel of MTW: VI, then there is hope. Maybe some patches to improve multiplayer code and performance - I don't know.

Keep us updated

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

To the "vets". Why do you get the feeling that what you liked is what's perfect? I really don't care if a battle ends with 20 men left or 300 men left, I really don't care if upgrades are in or not, I really don't care if a unit can move 140 m/sec instead of 139 m/sec.. And I'm sure, most of the community doesn't.

Are you on the payroll of CA? If you are not interested in playing multiplayer, you shouldn't write in this (EDIT:)multiplayer forum.

[Monarch]

- Battles were largely lag-free (post 1.12)

So am I to assume even Shogun lagged before it was patched? Obviously theres hope for m2 then.

My wish list for a patch:

Ability to change weather (rain lags)
Ability to have England Vs English (for example)
Much less lag in general, I can live with no 4v4s, although I am dissapointed, but 3v3s are an abolute must, I mean you can hardly have clan tournaments with 2 people
A bit of work on balancing, it is in general very good, I just want those musketeers nerfed :P

[Puzz3D]

So maybe Shogun's external simplicity contributed to having a more enjoyable and balanced multiplayer. Which in return created a very hardcore and serious community, and combat - although seemingly simpler by MTW/RTW standards - actually got very technical and complicated.

Nice to see someone who can articulate the fundamental principle. We played five 3v3 multiplayer battles (5500 men total) in Samurai Wars for MTW/VI v2.01 yesterday in a 2 and 1/2 hour playing session with no lag and no drops. We have a gameplay that's reminiscent of original STW v1.12, but with superior playbalance (no monk rush, etc).

So am I to assume even Shogun lagged before it was patched? Obviously theres hope for m2 then.

Yes, but the problem wasn't as severe. A network coding problem was corrected in the STW MI add-on which improved performance by 15%. Ironically, this degraded the gameplay because it made controlling all 16 units more difficult. It was already difficult enough in STW to control all 16 units. Units could turn and change direction quite fast in STW. This turning speed was slowed down a lot in MTW.

[Tera]

The 1.12 patch for Shogun, released in Late 2000, mostly fixed the multiplayer code. Before the patch even small battles gave problems. The game itself was not very demanding on the system. An improvement in the networking improved performance by a lot.

I believe the problem with MTW2 is the steep system requirements, apart from maybe a weak networking code. So probably your best bet is to play at minimum detail levels and with smaller unit sizes. However, this is not controllable..many or rather most players will not have tweaked the options, thinking that since they played single-player just fine, multiplayer will not be a problem. And the game runs at the pace of the slowest player. :(

To some extent, RTW/M2TW are defeated by their own success in terms of graphical detail etc.

About Weather: Can't you turn it off in Options?

[Puzz3D]

The 1.12 patch for Shogun, released in Late 2000, mostly fixed the multiplayer code. Before the patch even small battles gave problems. The game itself was not very demanding on the system. An improvement in the networking improved performance by a lot.

Oh I see. I didn't go online until after the v1.12 patch was released.

[Lusted]

I don't think CA will ever be able to make mp as balanced as it was in STW again, simply due to the much increased variety in units in every game since. STW with its identical factions, and small unit rosters was obviously much easier to balance than M2Tw with its 200 odd units.

[ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint]

Well, obviously the 3v3 and 4v4 lag will have to be fixed quickly to make this a viable MP game, but it certainly seems (based on the developer blog page) that CA is willing to work with the community to iron out MP gripes. After the Rome fiasco, I just hope It doesn't take too long to patch the major issues that come up.

I hope Clan Heerban will give them a little time before they dispose of their games. :)

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Well, obviously the 3v3 and 4v4 lag will have to be fixed quickly to make this a viable MP game, but it certainly seems (based on the developer blog page) that CA is willing to work with the community to iron out MP gripes. After the Rome fiasco, I just hope It doesn't take too long to patch the major issues that come up.

I hope Clan Heerban will give them a little time before they dispose of their games. :)

Hi Mongo Nice to see you here. Well as you say after Rome we are not very confident, that they solve them multiplayer problems. That would be very sad, because the battle system itself, seems to be okay.

[Orda Khan]

So am I to assume even Shogun lagged before it was patched? Obviously theres hope for m2 then.

Original STW lagged. That was six years ago. Surely that sort of problem should be a thing of the past

.......Orda

[Eques]

I played MTW for some months, joined a clan and had a lot of fun playing it. I also played STW and both were good games at their time. The thing is: they are gone! Come on, i loved to play them but who can play STW or MTW now? Look their graphics! its just ridiculous. I tried to play some MTW these days and got sick playing on both campaign/battle maps, and i feel the same way when someone start talking about "STW" golden days.
RTW was an ambitious project. They created a totally new engine. There is not a single RTS game that is good as RTW as it is. Guys, they work on new things, they step ahead. That is hard.
Yeah, they could do like blizzard with warcraft, or microsoft with age of empires... keeping the same engine for allmost a decade. Wold be a safe investment, of that i have no doubt. But they work on new things, like they did when they made STW and MTW. And you cant create a new product free of bugs and so on, its a experimental field.
If MP is sucking now im sure they will fix that as all other bugs. If not trough patchs they will do it in a new and "perfect" game. But, till this very day, im suporting them and their games cuz i know that someday they will make the kind of game that everybody (vets and rookies) want.
For those old vets wich left TW series, i just feel bad for them, cuz they left this brillhant comunity. Get back to Mario Bros!

[Orda Khan]

I played MTW for some months, joined a clan and had a lot of fun playing it. I also played STW and both were good games at their time. The thing is: they are gone! Come on, i loved to play them but who can play STW or MTW now? Look their graphics! its just ridiculous. I tried to play some MTW these days and got sick playing on both campaign/battle maps, and i feel the same way when someone start talking about "STW" golden days.
RTW was an ambitious project. They created a totally new engine. There is not a single RTS game that is good as RTW as it is. Guys, they work on new things, they step ahead. That is hard.
Yeah, they could do like blizzard with warcraft, or microsoft with age of empires... keeping the same engine for allmost a decade. Wold be a safe investment, of that i have no doubt. But they work on new things, like they did when they made STW and MTW. And you cant create a new product free of bugs and so on, its a experimental field.
If MP is sucking now im sure they will fix that as all other bugs. If not trough patchs they will do it in a new and "perfect" game. But, till this very day, im suporting them and their games cuz i know that someday they will make the kind of game that everybody (vets and rookies) want.
For those old vets wich left TW series, i just feel bad for them, cuz they left this brillhant comunity. Get back to Mario Bros!

Well just to answer some of your points.
If the Shogun server still existed I would play that rather than the others because at least there tactics won the battle. I don't really consider close up graphics when playing a 4v4 where battlefield overview is far more important. Graphic bliss is only any use when viewing a replay.
M2TW MP is bad and it will be fixed? What makes you think that? RTW MP was not fixed and it is still bad

.........Orda

[UglyandHasty]

Do you guys really think things are gonna change/improve ? I dont think so. I always wish for the best, but expect the worst.

Anyway, i know many vets, who like me, are waiting to have some feedback on mp. MTW2 is the first TW game i wont buy on release day. Of course, who am i kidding ? Sure i'll buy it. Sure i'll try mp. Many "old" face will come out in the incoming weeks. If its good enough they'll be back. If not, i'm sure it wont affect the usual RTW crowd.

Hope I'll see a couple of ya online. Its been awhile since i've been routed by a Cheetah and a Golfish

[Puzz3D]

I played MTW for some months, joined a clan and had a lot of fun playing it. I also played STW and both were good games at their time. The thing is: they are gone! Come on, i loved to play them but who can play STW or MTW now? Look their graphics! its just ridiculous. I tried to play some MTW these days and got sick playing on both campaign/battle maps, and i feel the same way when someone start talking about "STW" golden days. RTW was an ambitious project. They created a totally new engine. There is not a single RTS game that is good as RTW as it is.

The fact is that STW/MTW graphics are better for playing the battles. STW/MTW sprites are sharper than either RTW of M2TW sprites, and sprites are what you see when playing at a normal perspective. In addition, the armies and units are clearly distinguishable from each other and from the ground textures. STW was best since each man had a sashimono which clearly displayed his clan's color.

The fact is that there are tons of custom maps available for MTW and those maps are bigger than either RTW or M2TW maps.

The fact is that the RTW/M2TW battle engine is inferior to the STW/MTW battle engine.

STW was not an RTS game. The new ambitious project that CA embarked on with RTW was to move the gameplay closer to standard RTS gameplay which is not an innovative move.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Do you guys really think things are gonna change/improve ? I dont think so. I always wish for the best, but expect the worst.

I don't expect much change from now on; either the gameplay is good as it is, or not. There might be some marginal improvement in speed, in balancing, or in bug fixing (such as swipe, or the uber archer from RTW), however, it's only going to go so far: if 3v3 are not playable today, then it's unlikely 4v4 will be tomorrow.

Anyway, i know many vets, who like me, are waiting to have some feedback on mp. MTW2 is the first TW game i wont buy on release day.

Same here... It's been out for a week, I still don't have it, and the more I read about it, the less I feel like buying it.

Of course, who am i kidding ? Sure i'll buy it. Sure i'll try mp. Many "old" face will come out in the incoming weeks. If its good enough they'll be back. If not, i'm sure it wont affect the usual RTW crowd.

Hope I'll see a couple of ya online. Its been awhile since i've been routed by a Cheetah and a Golfish

Well, for SP, I think TW is outclassed by Paradox game, and EU3 is coming in January, so I'd rather get that one.

And for MP, well, if the current situation remains, it's not worth buying to play MP only.

So I might very well drop it alltogether. Too bad, there are many people I wish to play against or with, but if the game is not good, everybody will drop it sooner or later anyway...

Louis,

[1master1wakibiki]

This is sad. Speaking as an old timer I just looked in to view the general feel of the new game and while you always expect the odd groan if it’s not playing 4v4 its lost all the fun. Kinda proves the fact that more and bigger is not always better: chess has only 6 different pieces yet its variations are infinite and the gameplay unsurpassed. Are you ever going to get a balance with 100 different types?

The problem is that after the fantastic MP experience of the earlier games the SP just gets boring. Perhaps like Civ2 you’re never going to be able to hit that mark with the ones after.