Circassia

[cegorach]

The official thread will be used to add more information about the faction.


For now you can post anything you find useful including ideas for faction specific buildings, events, advisors etc MILITARY UNITS EXCLUDED - that is well researched and only later we will possibly need more details.

[yakuza]

As I said on twcenter, I'm ready to help your team to collevt information about Circassia. I don't know what infos you have about this land, but I will write here what I know.

Circassia inmedieval was a hal Christain and half Pagan country. Christianity here came from Byzantine Empire and from Georgia. Circassia was much bigger then todayss Karachai-Cherkessian, Kabardino-Balkarian and Agyde republics are. It had conntacts with Byzantine Empire, Georgia, Khazaria, and Kiev.

for pictures and other info I will write on Circassian forums that they can help, but before they reply I will show you what I have.

I'm not allowed to post urls, so it isn't my fault that you can't see the picutres in this post.

[yakuza]

This is an Circassian monaastry, that maybe for you is similar to greek, georgia, or armenian architecture, but it trust me, it is uniqe in his way. I have seen hundreds of churches in that stille, but this one is uniqe!(sorry for taftology)







I don't know if this picture will help you, because this swords and daggers have a verry big oriental infuence, but maybe you can see the Circassian details and elements:

[yakuza]

A verry, verry useful site:

http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/index.php?cat=23

[Gedonist]

wating...

[Gedonist]

[img=https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7413/1315vvgi5.th.jpg]
XIII-XV сс - Circassia

[WCB]

This is the correct Circassian Flag, that was based on Hatti sign of SUN. Created as a sign of unity os all Circassian Tribes.







Notice the Arrows on the flag, these are Circassian arrows, a detail that is not known to many people. the TIP is made not to stick in the body like regular arrow, but to drain more blood when hits the target. You can find this tip in early pictures of Circassians like this one



Circassian warriors used to ware a metal ring on the big finger of right hand, when shooting the arrow , Circassians did not use Europian stile of holding the string with 2 fingers, Circassians used the BIG finger which has more power when pulling the string back, and therefore arrow would shoot further.

There is a lot of details about Circassian Warriors, as i mentioned in Private message there is a professor that i have contact with, who can gie us some very unique details about Circassian warfare, he has been studiing it for over 15 years.
Some special strikes with Shashka, one of the most lethal strikes on battlefield was also presented in a short video (I lost that CD, but will try to find it soon)

Here is a Cartoon about Famous Circassian warrior and legend Hero Sousruko. Might help you to see the landscape and some details

www.adygaunion.us/music/Movies/Sosruko.WMV

By the way Cegorach, are you planning to put any tribe names for Circassians ? or you will have them as One ? As you know geograpically there were several Circassian tribes, or to say small kingdoms with counts, and it might put more interest in the game.

[Yinal_the_Great]

Hello WCB

I agree with you on the flag issue.
----------------------
About adding different tribes...

Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:

Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).

I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...

But imagine doing whole Europe like this! Not possible in Total War games.

As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.

If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.

Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.

Thanks.

[Savoy]

I do not think that this flag approaches(suits) to(towards) declared length of time of this play(game)

[Savoy]

There is article in russian language about gun complex circassian 14-17 ages. From it you will hear that circassians were a lawmaker of the mode in weapon and defensive element for Europe, Turcii, Caucasus and mamluks of Egypt.

[Savoy]

In 1903 N. Veselovskiy beside cossack village Ust-Labinskaya has found the remainder a ring-plate panoply. This type panoply is characterized the most high defensive characteristic since in wickerwork were included metallic, steel plates. Dignity of the mail and armor successfully matched In ring-plate panoply i.e. this was and the most strong, and the most light panoply. M.V. Gorelik, the largest russian connoisseur of the weapon, dated the discovery Veselovskogo XIV-XV century. The Burial mound excavated Veselovskim, is defined as circassian, on that indicate: 1) anthropological type; 2) weapon, stock and funeral rite. The Important certificate that that for the first time ring-plate panoply came up for circassian ambience, is that fact that his(its) begin to carry mamluks in Egypt, as from period of the rule of the first circassian sultan az-Zahir Barkuk (1382-1399

... Three types panoply were the most widely-used in that time: mail cape, plate panoply and armor. More Wide-spread was shown idle time cape raincoat,... some of them were not simply long, but were dragged on the ground, when rider dismounted. Later part mail cape has a collars. Practically all ed panoply the known on museum and quotient collection, pertain to epoch mamlukian circassian state (1382-1517) and on their study are based findings european specialist on histories of the weapon and panoply. Same we can speak on all other element cavalry, chivalrous arms - known his(its) copies, as a rule, are connected with circassian mamluks XV centuries. The Circassian longing to relieve the arms not reducing herewith defensive function, is particularly seen send "misyurka

The Continuation follows......

(Excuse me for my bad english)

[WCB]

Hello WCB

I agree with you on the flag issue.
----------------------
About adding different tribes...

Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:

Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).

I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...

But imagine doing whole Europe like this! Not possible in Total War games.

As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.

If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.

Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.

Thanks.

I understand, was just wondering.

Now when you say Circassia, I hope you include Kabarda in it, because its an absolute biggest part of Circassia, eastern part.
I agree to include Circassia as one country with borders according to maps from Black see to Dagestan, from Tartar to Georgia.


Savoy,
Its understandable that the flag as it is presented in my post was not exact same in 1570, but it seems to make more sence to have that flag since it represents Circassians worldwide.
When players choose to play as Circassians, they will have Green flag with 12 stars and 3 golden arrows, and whenever they see this flag in real life, they will know what it means.
This flag is the only flag of UNITED Circassia, and thats what it represents. I hope makers of the game choose it as comon flag for Circassians.

[WCB]

A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.


First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.

Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.


As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Cavalry Units.

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).

NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.

All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.

[Gedonist]

[Yinal_the_Great]

A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.


First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.

Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.


As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Cavalry Units.

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).

NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.

All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.

Very good!

Unit Roster looks alot more detailed and more accurate than mine.

I thought alot about Dzhigit I guess it fits Dagistanis more than Circassians.

What about titles like "Shu (Shoo) Pashe" is there are non Turkified-Russofied names for some of the others I posted? If you can find them, please dont forget to change them also, (if you can) Cegorach wants native names as much as possible.

My Circassian is too basic for some of those!

[cegorach]

Ok. Time for some questions I hope that you and Savoy will be able to help answering them.



Units - in general I need the names for those in CIRCASSIAN - I want to avoid English if possible.
So the names should be completelly Circassian - every single word in unit's name should be in this language.

If possible use historical names, if not please translate the existing ones.


Finally if POSSIBLE we will need to reconstruct the images of each unit - weaponry, uniforms - everything.

One good image for one unit - 3D models will be based on this image here in PMTW2 and in Ogniem i Mieczem - I cooperate with them and told Alias from their team that this thread will be used to describe circassian military for BOTH mods.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

OK. So poorly armed peasants. How were they used ?

Only in defence of local communities, as the last resort or maybe more often and even in larger battles too ?
Finally this sword and shield how did those look like ? Some sort of unique circassian style or rather diverse collection of weaponry - whatever a peasant could get ?

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

What weaponry did they use ? Were they from Persia or the Ottoman empire ?

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Tactics ? I mean - marksmen, guerilla fighters or something more used in open battles ?

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Weapons ?

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Interesting name. Why they were called this way - maybe they lived on the coastline and were in fact some sort of pirates like Cossacks ?

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Again weaponry ?

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Was this tejeley similar to this kind of Russian armour ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Tactics. I mean how did they use the missile weapons - to soften the enemy before a charge, in defence or was that used even less often ?

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

In forests ? For what reason, I mean did they use guerill tactics, some sort of missile unit or perhaps for ambushing the enemy ?

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Tactics. Were they used as bodyguards for the commanders, elite shock cavalry to smash the enemy when he was 'ready' for the knock-out ?

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

That is a reasonable request.

Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.

True, though not always 'Circassian' units were made of Circassians - the fashion to have crtain units called in certain way in the Commonwealth meant there were 'Cossack', 'Tatar', 'Hungarian', 'Wallachian' and 'German' units sometimes without a single non-Pole in those.
I think that only Scottish infantry in Poland was always formed from local Scots.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

So only the infantry fought in open battles or was the infantry used to attack the enemy lured to pursue the cavalry ?
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes ?

Also were there any tactics in sieges, were the Circassians besieging anyone at that time ?

In the game I need to determine several things for example how will the Circassians attacking enemy strongholds - any information about siege engines - cannons, mines etc ?


In general we will need to create working roster where we need to know how armed, how used and how numerous are certain units.
It is a matter how the Circassian army will work on the battlefield.
I have shown several rosters and in general I already know for what purpose each units is going to be used.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

So they were mostly Orthodox ? I wonder was that autonomic, local church or a part of larger organisation under the guidiance of Constantinopole patriarch, or maybe someone else ?

I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative ?


Regards Cegorach