Can you explain...Cavalry Vs Spearmen

[Paolai]

How about walking?
What happens if you walk a cav into pikes using click behind?

walk or run is the same, there is no difference from my experience. The only important thing is that you have to click behind a pike when/if in formation, then when the melee fight starts (contact), click on the pike.

If the pike are not in formation just simply charge them frontally clicking on the unit, and pikes die quite fast like all the other units.

[RTKBarrett]

walk or run is the same, there is no difference from my experience. The only important thing is that you have to click behind a pike when/if in formation, then when the melee fight starts (contact), click on the pike.

If the pike are not in formation just simply charge them frontally clicking on the unit, and pikes die quite fast like all the other units.

Pikes out of the formation are extremely easy targets... Mounted xbows can easily rout say a flemish/tercio pikeman if it hits a rotating pike or one out of position. But what paolai says about the cav on pike is true... its just ppl dont abuse this particular bug for whatever reason yet.

[TosaInu]

Pikes out of the formation are extremely easy targets... Mounted xbows can easily rout say a flemish/tercio pikeman if it hits a rotating pike or one out of position.

Can't see how easy it is, but that's fair I think. However, it's not at all possible to move forward in formation while pointing the pikes?

[Paolai]

yes it is possibile but they are very slow in formation.

[x-dANGEr]

Tricky x-dANGER, I don't want to test it It's sharp metal, the knight is part of a heavy object that moves at 10 mph. It's moving slower allowing the knight to dodge and fence perhaps, but it also gives the pikeman more time for a better aim and poke (yariashigaru, the Japanese pikeunits, were trained to do that). Move faster and the knight can't dodge and fence, it will be harder for the pikeman to aim, but even a little hit will pierce through and through again and inflict a huge shock to the body (it doesn't matter anymore where you get hit). What do you want: a spider- or a snakebite?

I didn't get the last sentence ("spider, snakebite..").

All I'm saying is that the Pikeman can't have the power to hold such a long pike, aim it, and jab it strong enough to penetrate the armor of the knight. Of course, I'm saying this without any background info except my own limited knowledge about it (That's supported by theories I have from my daily life ).

[Lavos]

Just one minor thing to ad to this pike thing.
When pikes start using swords you can make them switch back to pike if you press hold button.
Theres one problem tho, switch from sword to pikes take some time in which unit stop fighting even with swords.

[Stig]

Play games at Large unit size instead of Normal, that will nerf down cav.
Why?
On Normal:
Cav: 48 a unit
Inf: 60 a unit

On Large:
Cav: 60 a unit
Inf: 90 a unit

So on Normal every cav has to kill 1,2 infantrymen
On Large every cav has to kill 1,5 infantrymen

[TosaInu]

I didn't get the last sentence ("spider, snakebite..").

Just that I guess there is not a real good situation for the knight when riding into a pikewall. I understand your point about armour penetration, that may be correct. But there may be disadvantages too. So in the end it's just a bad thing to do.

[x-dANGEr]

Sure it is. But isn't as bad.. That's what am trying to clear. :P

[CBR]

Play games at Large unit size instead of Normal, that will nerf down cav.
Why?
On Normal:
Cav: 48 a unit
Inf: 60 a unit

On Large:
Cav: 60 a unit
Inf: 90 a unit

So on Normal every cav has to kill 1,2 infantrymen
On Large every cav has to kill 1,5 infantrymen

hmm Im pretty sure on normal cav is 40 and inf is 60/75 men while large is 60 for cav and 90/112 for inf.


CBR

[x-dANGEr]

hmm Im pretty sure on normal cav is 40 and inf is 60/75 men while large is 60 for cav and 90/112 for inf.


CBR

What did Stig say..?

[CBR]

What did Stig say..?

I quoted what he said...

But to clarify, he says that the cav/inf ratio changes by changing unit size but the numbers he use are not correct, so it doesnt matter what unit size one uses. Cav will always be facing sword units that are 1.5 times bigger and spear/pike units that are 1.875 times bigger.

But unit size could still mean something as players generally would be using deeper ranks. That could have an effect against cavalry charges. It was even CA's claim that huge unit sizes gives "tactical extravaganza" I believe it was. At least it would reduce overall kill rates a bit because of deeper ranks.

Unfortunately that cant be used for bigger games because of lag issues.


CBR

[TosaInu]

Sure it is. But isn't as bad.. That's what am trying to clear. :P

Possible.

[Stig]

But to clarify, he says that the cav/inf ratio changes by changing unit size but the numbers he use are not correct

Well I'm pretty sure about it, but then could be wrong

And yes if it isn't this cav/inf ratio it's the ranks.
On normal, cav is deployed in 2 ranks (default)
On large, cav is deployed in 3 ranks (default)
Only the first rank does damage.

While on normal, inf is deployed about 5x3
and on large this is 6x3

ie. the same amount of cav has to kill more men

[SoxSexSax]

3 things:

1) I am astonished that this post has the most views on the forum. I started it only to get a response from the CA developer who said "I will answer questions if they start with 'Can you explain...'"

2) The problem is not so bad since the patch. As I stated, the big problem was how easily cavalry could pull out of melee without taking casualties. Cavalry now take serious casualties when they turn their back to the enemy, negating the issue.

3) HOWEVER, normal spearmen are still too weak to use in MP. The rock-paper-scissors mechanic that has been basically the cornerstone of the series does not appear to be working (imo), as the best counter for cavalry seems very much to be cavalry of your own.

[pike master]

i used to be kinda hard on the spearmen needing more staying power but after seeing cav spam armies im kinda leaning toward stronger spears.

its no fun when the easiest troop build overall is a cav army.

[buujin]

Cav charge is far too strong.

Even in low florrin games (around 6k florrins ) taking just 4-6 units of heavy cav can wipe out a much bigger balanced army of lower grade troops.

Any infantry type gets totally creamed on first contact by the charge unless fully braced and facing the cav head on. This clearly can be difficult to prepare since cav has greater manouverability.

[RTKBarrett]

Another important issue is the shield bug for cavalry, i hope that CA address this and that when they are done they make sure the likes of teutonic knights/khan Guard dnt become even stronger and are actually balanced more!

Cav focussed builds have become very popular in m2tw multiplayer and for gd reason.. they are very effective. Unit costings need serious adjustments and units such as foot archers that have proved ineffective thus far need to be changed completely. Whether this is by increased rate of fire/damage or reduction in price doesnt matter... but something is required to make the game reasonable once more in mp.

[ElmarkOFear]

I would like to see less ammo for archer units, but higher killing rates. I would also like to see a slower firing rate for musket/arque's.

[Midnj]

I think if you really want rock/paper/scissors so badly you could just play rock/paper/scissors?

Here is a helpful link ;)

http://www.usarps.com/

[LadyAnn]

Play games at Large unit size instead of Normal, that will nerf down cav.
Why?
On Normal:
Cav: 48 a unit
Inf: 60 a unit

On Large:
Cav: 60 a unit
Inf: 90 a unit

So on Normal every cav has to kill 1,2 infantrymen
On Large every cav has to kill 1,5 infantrymen

I would like to but *cries* M2:TW is even worse than R:TW and much worse than M:TW with regard to supporting many men on the battle field. I would consider lucky to join a game at "normal" setting, when most games are played at "small" *sobs*

When R:TW came out, we FF used to host 2x2 at large setting and it was enjoyable.

Annie

[Tempiic]

When R:TW came out, we FF used to host 2x2 at large setting and it was enjoyable.

Annie

and at low florins too. :)

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Play games at Large unit size instead of Normal, that will nerf down cav.
Why?
On Normal:
Cav: 48 a unit
Inf: 60 a unit

On Large:
Cav: 60 a unit
Inf: 90 a unit

So on Normal every cav has to kill 1,2 infantrymen
On Large every cav has to kill 1,5 infantrymen

Yep that's a good idea if you want to watch a tw slideshow! :)

[CeltiberoMordred]

Oh, that was just a Stig's mistake, mixing RTW with M2TW. Read CBR's posted above.

Medium is really 60/75 for infantry, 40 for cavalry.

Large is 90/112 for infantry, 60 for cavalry.

The relationship is always 1.5 sword/cav and 1.875 spear/cav, no matters unit size selection.

That post is quite old though.

[Forlorn Hope]

I just don't think that cavalry should be able to penetrate a formation of infantry so easily. A horse would baulk the vast majority of the time and more likely throw it's rider. If they break the formation then sure, but unbroken ones, e.g. Napoleonic squares should hold firm unless CA can find some way of making cavalry threatening them weaken morale suitably in order that they break, allowing the cavalry inside. Sure squares did break like at Garcia Hernandez, but at a horrific price to the cavalry unit

[pike master]

During the Spanish Conquista the Mapuches with simple copper tipped spears defeated cavalry charges from spanish heavy cavalry.

Its not rock paper scissor balance. Its historical fact that a solid unwavering mass of spearmen can halt the most determined cavalry charge.