An old idea reborn again for MP balancing

[ElmarkOFear]

A long time ago, NC aka. (FearofNC, CapeFear) brought forth an idea for MP which I have just remembered after playing M2TW MP for a few weeks and which I further believe a viable alternative for MP balancing. This idea won't be for everybody, but since it would be as an addition to the original M2TW game, it would not affect those MP players against such an idea.

NC's idea was the establishment of a generic faction, to be used for Clan vs. clan, tournament and league play. This faction would consist of a few units of each unit type such as: Spear, Sword, Axe, Arrow, Javelin, Gunpowder, Heavy, medium, light cav, missile cav and artillery. The MP community would decide on how best to balance these units, and would be responsible for testing and the final product.

The way this generic faction would be implemented would be:

1. Creating a separate game mode or separate era (such as Classic mode or Custom era).
2. The unit stats for this new game type would be kept separate from the original SP and MP unit stats. This insures that changes made by the community would not effect changes made by CA for either SP or MP.
3. To get around the current MP game limit where a single faction can only be played by one team or person, there would be two like factions formed: Let's just say we could call them Faction 1 and Faction 2. They would contain the exact smae units with the exact same stats.
4. The MP community would be responsible for balancing this new game mode or era, thus separating CA from any responsibility for its gameplay & balancing while avoiding the long QA testing process currently in use.
5. This could eventually lead to the creation of several different eras/game modes such as Shogun, Medieval 1, Classic, etc . . . All the responsibility of the MP community.

This would free CA to focus on issues related to game mechanics, unit animation problems battle engine miscalculations, SP balance and other non-MP balancing issues instead of the more time-consuming MP balancing work. Once the MP community has discussed and agreed upon a set of stats, and play-tested approved such, then it could be presented to CA to be included in a future patch.

The best part of this is anything the MP community changes in the unit stats would not affect the original M2TW SP or MP stats, but be completely separate. It would help alleviate CA's concern and trepidation with making changes to MP stats, which would unbalance the SP campaign. It would speed up the time it would take to get an MP balancing patch, by reducing the number of units to be balanced, by eliminating the time-consuming CA/SEGA QA testing and packaging of the patch, and also allow the MP community a bit more control over its area of expertise. It also avoids the big problem of the much larger SP community arguing that changes to MP adversely affect their part of the game.

It also will give those who have been complaining about MP balance issues a chance to test/change things to their liking, while allowing those who like the current MP to continue playing with the current M2TW MP game balance.

What do people in the MP community think about this idea? I think NC hit upon a very good option for a certain portion of the MP community to get the balance they want, without upsetting the balance the other part of the MP community is enjoying currently.

Feel free to copy/paste this in any forum you like for discussion.

[pevergreen]

Good idea there, but I predict there shall be much squabbeling over what units are in and what units are out. No matter what you do, there will always be some people who don't get their favourite unit in there.

I also think this shall drum up support as a means for balanced MP quicker...and if CA realises this, and lets say, agrees if there is a leading body of respected people heading the balancing, we might just get a better SP campaign. Why this could even continue over to other TW games.

Hope this works out

[FearSimbol]

NC Dreams never become true because the stupid RTW comes out and f*** everything.

But Nc will be proud of you Helmo! you wear the Fear name with all the honor..

Perhaps we have to study the stats a litle bit, Nc was very good with that. i miss him!

[Stig]

You forgot the important part Elmo, is it possible with the current engine ... isn't it too much work, for a patch alone

[Nikodil]

Good idea there, but I predict there shall be much squabbeling over what units are in and what units are out. No matter what you do, there will always be some people who don't get their favourite unit in there.

Could be solved with a simple voting system. Each player get 3 votes, like unit X is too expensive, unit Y is too strong, unit Z is too slow, etc. Every week, Elmo compiles all the votes and updates the stats accordingly. Quick and simple, and you would get a system where both tactics *and* units would evolve together. Could be quite interesting. Pity I keep getting CTDs with M2TW on my pute :(

[Grey_Fox]

You forgot the important part Elmo, is it possible with the current engine ... isn't it too much work, for a patch alone

There's already an eras system for MP and custom battles, I don't see how it would be too difficult to implement.

[Stig]

It's point #2 that is the problem I think, different unit stats, if you have only looked into the export_descr_units file you'll see it's hard to implement this, you need entire new units for this.

[Monarch]

Nice idea.

However may I ask what is wrong with medieval 2's high era? (maybe even early). I see no real unbalance tbh, in late yes theres musketeers. But overall I see it to be a very balanced game.

Good luck with you're project, I was just pointing that out

[ElmarkOFear]

I have sent a note to find out if this would be something CA might be willing to do, and hopefully will have a reply in a week or so before starting this.

It would require establishing a new set of unit stats, but you could use the existing unit animations. I think it is just a simple "copy a unit's stats over and change its name" process. Though I am no modder, others more knowledgeable than me would have to look into this. It is important we make completely separate unit files rather than just designate them as available in the Classic era only since we do not want to upset the regular SP/MP balance.

I am sure there will be some squabbling over units, but with the right group it would work. It has been done in the past with STW 1.3? (I know it was one of the last STW patches).

My feeling is something different must be done, if the MP community is to have any hope of getting any changes made (Especially those that would also effect the SP campaign's playability. We must offer some process that not only lets the MP community have a bit more say, but also lets CA off the hook as to its playability and which further saves CA the hassle, time, and resources necessary to make such an MP-focused patch. The above process does this I believe.

Monarch: There isn't anything wrong with the Early and High eras for a large group of MP players, but this method will not effect those eras at all, if implemented the way I mentioned. This patch is for those who disagree with the balance of the current MP game. By making it a separate era, you are also more likely to get people to play it. For some reason, the MP community has never been very keen on downloading mods and playing them online, but they are willing to try new game modes when offered. There is nothing to say that something we change in the separate era unit files, couldn't be used in the original MP unit files if it is found to solve a problem.

Oops gotta eat! Be back on later. :)

[Stig]

I have sent a note to find out if this would be something CA might be willing to do, and hopefully will have a reply in a week or so before starting this.

I thought Shoggers stopped replying to your pms

mind you he never replies to mine either

[tibilicus]

I thought Shoggers stopped replying to your pms

mind you he never replies to mine either

Just soe very one knows Shogun still woes me "an alternetive prize"

Pft...

[ElmarkOFear]

Stig: Who says I went through TheShogun? He isn't very fond of me since I left the .com mod/admin position. Guess he questions my "loyalty". hehe :)

[UglyandHasty]

That's a great idea. Could work if you suggest to CA that we do the work. Otherwise i dont see them divert people for a mp stats version. If i can help i'll do.

[Puzz3D]

This is why ShingenMitch, ShingenKrypta, CBR and I made Samurai Wars. It was during the RTW v1.2 beta (three of us were on that beta team) that the decision to work on Samurai Wars was made. We wanted to provide an alternative to the direction that Creative Assembly was taking the Total War series, and instead emphasize playbalance and returne the gameplay as close as possible to that of original STW. We got about a dozen top veteran STW players such as AMP, Magyar, Swoosh to play test it. They found problems, and we fixed those problems. It required a lot of work and a very good understanding of the battle engine. We had a very good starting point which was the original STW unit stat, and it was still a lot of work to get it balanced. The player who said "one guy and his dog could have balanced it in a week" doesn't know what he's talking about.

My own feeling is that it's not worth putting in this kind of effort using the new RTW/M2TW battle engine because it's so inferior to the old engine. Visualization of the units is inferior, and the system requirements for good performance are higher. The new engine has left click to select and right click to attack, and cav shooting on the move which are the only advantages that I see over the old engine which isn't enough to offset the disadvantages. On top of that, it appears that very few players are really interested in balanced gameplay.

[Monarch]

The new engine has left click to select and right click to attack, and .

Hmm, just wondering why you don't like that? I played mtw after RTW and tbh really prefer rome's way. I always ended up sending units halfway accross the battlefield when I was only double clicking to get a look

and the system requirements for good performance are higher.

True, but any game thats around 5 years newer would have. I also agree with you that m2's textures when yuo zoom out (as i am consantly am) look very different to the actual unit, annoyingly so. However, this is moddable.

M2's engine does have alot more features. TBH, Puzz, it sounds like you don't like Rome, fair enough, however unless you've played alot of the mods (granted, most except for ntw2 wern't balanced for online play, but they do slow things down and make other good battle amendments) then you can't really say how great the capability of a modded version of the game will be.

[UglyStrike]

Goodness, alot of old friend's names are being tossed around in this thread. The good old days are what is luring me back. Expecting delivery of 2 any day now.

NOw to the meat of the discussion. A mod such as Elm is referring too, would be a wonderful thing. My concern with MOd's has always been the natural tendency of the the person fixing it to make the units "balanced" in a way that best fits his/her play. Some people like Cav. and some shooters and others ground pounders. *Shrugs* One of my "favorite" Mod memories is watching a Tired Knight unit with 3 men left, charge alone, directly at a full strength, well rested Pike unit and rout them.

Having a committee of various combat styles will serve to put a brake on such obvious twinking and make the game more enjoyable.

*Thumbs up* to the poor individuals that jump on this band wagon and I will be waiting patiently for the lazy bums to get it done, so I can complain about it.

Strike

[Cheetah]

Good idea Elmo, though a few weaks ago I had a similar idea and no one was interested in it:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73527

Which just shows the weight of your word in the MP community.

Of course I did not know that NC had similar ideas.

Anyway if the community is willing to put effort in it might be doable, but first I would focus on the existing game we have and help CA with the potential balance issues.

ps. And yes, they are aware of the cav charge problem ...

[Yun Dog]

I agree - often its difficult to get the community to agree to anything let alone balance. You might agree with 90% of the changes but wont play it for that 10% you cant live with.

Why does this need CAs involvement - why cant it be modded like Puzz et al did with Samurai wars. If enough people want balance and are happy with the units/stats then - they will download the mod and play it. Elmo, you said the community is reluctant to do this - and I ask why? and what does that in itself infer?

IMO I dont think this requires CA at all - enough people interested - then it will work as a mod - if not - I guess the MPers will make do with the unbalanced vanilla or ?? play something else??

Puzz - I hear what your saying - but if there was a time to shift to the new engine surely its now. Im sorry I just cant bring myself to go back to the sprites - at least not for anymore than an afternoon. It all becomes about numbers - numbers of players - you guys play SW at like 4am my time - so I cant get a game otherwise, or it means trying to plan it - which is impossible. Gamers like myself, are going to sit down to play whatever at whatever time - and there needs to be people online - to play against. If theyre playing the mod - sweet - if they are not then Ill be playing vanilla so as to get a game. When youve got limited gaming time - you play whatever has people playing it.

Get enough people won over to playing the MOD and it will become MP. Particularly if as I suspect its a better gaming experience than vanilla - but convincing the wider MP community of this and getting them to play it - thats a huge challenge.

[edit] - I guess the upshot is you need a switch so if you upgrade to the balance mod - you can still switch to vanilla - cause if its the mod or nothing - then maybe thats why people are reluctant to play modded MP. [2nd edit] and the lobby needs to show when people are playing Mod x - so vanilla players can see all the people playing it

[RTKMercurius]

The idea of having a "multiplayer" era of some sort is fine with me... it would have to be an era and not a mod or else it won't catch on as a regularly used feature, which will limit its usefulnes in tournaments, and such. Therefore, it would just be another in game choice for the host to make... and we'll get plenty of use out of the other eras, also.

The more variety of units available, the better, imho...

[ElmarkOFear]

I am not sure why you cannot get players to download a mod, but it has never happened that a large enough group has downloaded a mod, to make playing it over MP feasible. The Samurai War mod is great, as are quite a few others, but only a small portion of games played on the MP server are mods. This is why, I feel it is important to not set it up as a mod, but to make it an integral part of the M2TW game as a different era or game mode. That way, it would be available to all and not just those who went to the time and trouble to download and install the mod. Plus, a mod changes both SP and MP play, whereby this one adds to MP without changing either SP or original MP.

If you rely on CA to make the changes, you will have to wait for a long time, and you will not get what you want, since they historically have not made any changes that would affect the SP campaign. This is another reason getting it in as another game mode or era is so important. It separates out the statistics so changes do not effect other parts of the game.

Also, I am not saying to ignore changing the current MP game. There are many things which need changing for everyone, but a new era/game mode allows for the development of completely new game mechanics. In the future, I could see a Shogun era, a medieval 1 era, etc . . If CA can easily add eras (which I am currently trying to find out) then the MP community could do the leg work, and CA could focus on the major problems with the patch, and once the MP community has made their changes it could then be plugged into the original game as part of an Official Patch, which adds to the game (not changes the existing game).

This keeps CA from having to devote resources and money into MP balance issues, which from looking at the current game are many. Also, CA is not going to be willing to trim down all those duplicate units and change their cost structure for MP. A generic faction consisting of less units is more feasible to balance than trying to balance 100's of units. :)

Cheetah, I had never noticed that post before, but it may have been before I started back here. Great minds think alike (You and NC: Then there is poor me just barely hanging on mentally).

As changes are found which would help out the original MP eras or game modes, we can present them to Palamedes so this could be a win/win situation for all. Though it will take a small committment by CA (smaller than if they try balancing MP by addressing a lot of our issues) to get it to work.

[Yun Dog]

Dont get me wrong - I think its a good idea for the reasons youve outlined. But I feel it has a slim chance of finding an ear at CA given the clamoring noise to give priority to other things. I mean if they agree and decide to implement it in short order then perfect.

At least with mod the community controls it, creates it, fixes it, ammends it, and usually fairly promptly. I guess given the record CA has with MP - Ive lost faith buddy Im sorry.

Why dont people play mods?

maybe because they cant see how many others are playing it. In Bf2 I can see all the people and what they are playing - be it a mod or special forces etc, if I saw lots of people or at least the ones I like to play with playing MOd x - and a few unknowns playing vanilla - I would download the mod. Is it just a question of visibility? If I went on and saw a few people playing the mod - Id think oh cool - people are playing the mod - and play that instead

The only thing we differ on is how to implement this thing - I could be wrong butI think we could die old men waiting for CA - or take affirmative action make the mod - all the Ol faithfuls and clans start playing it - and hope the rest come round - wanting to play the best. The battle is to win the hearts and minds and get people playing it - either way. Its IF CA are going to get involved in the MP side of things or not - thatll decide it I guess

just some thoughts

[TexRoadkill]

Wouldn't it be easier if they just eliminated the one side per faction rule? I guess they do that because of the colors of the armies but that is the crux of the problem. If everyone could be England or whomever then balance is acheived.

[ElmarkOFear]

Yunus: By trying to make this an era, CA will not have to spend much time on MP-related things. Otherwise, as you stated, CA will not give the MP community much in the way of a patch. By having CA add this as a special era, which shouldn't take very long since it is already programmed into the MP game, the MP community can work on the changes instead.

I have even more "less faith" than you my friend, when it comes to believing CA will address MP issues, especially if they affect the SP campaign as well.

Mods won't work. The TW MP community has proven that over and over again throughout the 5+ year history of this game. A small portion will play it, but it will not become commonplace. The path of least resistance would be to have it made part of the game as an era or game mode. This is the main reason I thought NC's idea was a good one. It avoids the old MP "Mod" problem.

Lastly, by making it an era or game mode, the MP community DOES control it. All CA need do is provide the conduit by which we insert the era units into the MP game, through making a new era or new game mode. We will provide them with the necessary files and they just plug em in and everything is ready to go. We get what we want, CA doesn't spend much time on it, and everybody is much happier.

TexRoadKill: I would love it if they did away with the "one faction per side" rule, but most of the balance issues are unit vs. unit and not faction vs. faction . . . . Cav vs. spear, spear vs. sword, missile vs. cav etc . . instead of Aztec vs. English. By having a generic faction in a separate game mode, you will have an easier time balancing unit vs. unit and you will have a game mode where everything is equal (Which is very important for Clan play and tournaments). Regular MP players don't have to play it if they don't want to, since it is a totally separate game mode or era from the original M2TW MP game. I think if we depend on CA to make any MP changes, we will be dissappointed, but if we can get them to add in another era or game mode, we will be able to get the changes in without all the time, QA testing by CA/SEGA and without affecting the SP game.

[pevergreen]

No matter the outcome of what CA says, Elmo, you have my limited modding knowledge and extensive hours at your use, command me as you will!

This could really take off, and ill bet that if included in a patch, many people would play this. If CA says no, then they should look at what would happen to this game. They either have limited manpower and great ideas, and will slowly input them until the corperate guys demand another xp pack to make money and then another game. CA needs to realise that letting us do this, will free up their time, and gain them credit for the people who dont know whats going on here.

It's simple CA, it's win/win. You give control to the "masses" and it works - awsome, more time to create a better game = more people buy and continue buying. You give control to the "masses" and it doesnt work - you continue as normal. You dont give control to the "masses" and you get bashed over SP bugs, MP imbalance and people continue to hate you. Listen to Elmo, great ideas, can implement them with the large number of people who already are interested. Do it CA, for the greater good.

[ElmarkOFear]

LOL Pevergreen. If I ever go into the publi arena like Politics, Entertainment, Consulting work . . you will be my first choice of PR (Public Relations) person!

You could call your company: Pevergreen's PR :)

As I stated I am waiting to get a response on whether this is something CA might consider doing. Once we get a green light or any interest is shown in the idea, we can begin to set up the team to begin work. I think we should also get some of the TWC group and other modders involved as well, (if they are interested), since it would benefit them all and might provide a better outlet for their mods in future TW games. If Puzz, CBR and gang would decide to give M2TW a try, we would also welcome their input.

If things work out well, CA could even use this in its marketing of future games, like Firaxis did with CIV IV. They could reinvent themselves as a "customer-friendly" company.

Also, I am willing to step-aside and let those with more experience in such things organize or run this process. I never let my ego get in the way of a progress . . one of the nice things about being Ugly! hehe

[pevergreen]

I second this:

Also, I am willing to step-aside and let those with more experience in such things organize or run this process. I never let my ego get in the way of a progress . . one of the nice things about being Ugly! hehe

I too am Ugly.

You could call your company: Pevergreen's PR :)

It's already P.I. - Pevergreen Incorperated (yes I have my own company)

If things work out well, CA could even use this in its marketing of future games, like Firaxis did with CIV IV. They could reinvent themselves as a "customer-friendly" company.

That would be amazing! The only forums i have seen dev's actively participate are the ones were they dont get bashed. Over at DDO (dungeons and dragons online: Stormreach all right reserverd blah blah) the devs listen to the players, and their bugs and concerns. If theres any bashing over there the Gelatinous Cube stops it (hes super mod with the best Member Title ive ever seen: *Squish* *Squish*)

As I said before, CA should realise this is a win/win for them, and if they dont, i may have to go down there and talk some sense into them (2 problems, I dont know where they are [The Valley?] and they wouldnt listen to an Ugly teenager [its hard being so young....15 ])

I think we should also get some of the TWC group and other modders involved as well, (if they are interested), since it would benefit them all and might provide a better outlet for their mods in future TW games. If Puzz, CBR and gang would decide to give M2TW a try, we would also welcome their input.

yeah TWC seem dedicated to everything, I'd sign up, but in the short time i've known the .org, i've come to love it..and the TWC has forum options i dont like (thanks frogbeast, you made me sign up here) Anyway, whoever works on this, if CA implement it, or even announce its exsistance, it could break the ice for this and other mods. [Thought]I really must get a job a CA[/Thought]

And if CA declines this with some legal mumbo jumbo, just let them know. That isnt a knife, THIS is a knife

[Vinsitor]

The idea is very good and it could maybe save the MP experience for clans, with tournaments and balanced battles.

The point I like very much is that it HAS TO BE compatible with the vanilla version.

I personally would like a kind of Samuray Wars/Medieval choice in this mod, but also only Medieval would be ok

[Puzz3D]

This idea of having CA make a separate era does have the advantage that it would be compatible with the vanilla game. It requires that the game also support completely separate stats for separate eras. In Samurai Wars for MTW/VI, you have to use a stat swapper to go back to the vanilla game because MTW/VI only supports one projectiles.txt stat file.

Part of the difficulty in getting players to use an era with a different gameplay than the vanilla game is that they have invested a lot of time into mastering the vanilla game. Players have to tire of the vanilla game before most will search out something different.

[pevergreen]

But if it was included in the official patches, they wouldnt have to search.
The stat swapper could be viable, but im leaning towards Elmo's idea of new factions just for MP.

Still waiting on CA

[Agravain of Orkney]

I think a reason the mods do not become real popular for multiplayer is that if you want to play a vanilla version of the game (which the vast number of people playing multiplayer have) then you must have two versions of the game installed on your computer. This takes up a lot of hard drive space and when in the lobby in one version, and then you want to play a game in the other version, you (and everyone else) must wait while you change versions of the game. It's inconvenient.

However, having a selectable era that is balanced for multiplayer, how about we call it "Balanced Era", seems like it would overcome those problems. Even if it was a community mod and not an official patch, I bet it would catch on. The key I think is to make it very easy to switch between the mod and the vanilla, without having to leave the game lobby.