The old unit stats...

[caravel]

I've just started a campaign as my favourite STW faction the Shimazu. I've swept across the map, well turtled morelike, an my forces are now in yamashiro and ajoining provinces so establish a strong chokepoint. They, the Warrior monks and No Dachi Samurai, backed up with some heavy cavalry, yari samurai and a few others are now taking a well deserved rest... or are they? I'm not sure...

I am playing STW/MI 1.02 on the hard difficulty Sengoku Jidai era, huge unit size. Now if memory serves me correctly the expert difficulty in STW works much the same way as in MTW, with the AI morale bonus? If not should I use expert difficulty, or should I use it anyway? It all seems alot easier than I remembered. Also I remember reading something, somewhere about the old STW unit stats being better than, I think, the STW/MI unit stats. I think it was Puzz3D that said something about this? I seem to remember it being much more difficult also. I didn't play too much of STW with MI as I'd already finished STW 1.12 on it's own several times when MI was released, and delayed buying it for quite a long time.

[Drisos]

Hi Caravel,

About the Difficulties, I think that they work like this;

Easy; all AI units behave like the have 1 honour less then they have.
Normal; all AI units behave like they should. It's 'fair' this way.
Hard; all AI units behave like they have 1 honour more then they have.
Expert; all AI units behave like they have 2 honour more then they have.

I might be wrong though, could be that this is Rome stuff my memory is too just too full with all kinds of slight memories on this kind of stuff.

However I'm confident Puzz3d will know this and tell us if I'm correct of if not what's the real system. He never really liked the 1.02 stats, preferred other stats, but of course for details to why etc he's the man to contact. (I guess he's still around now and then. )

I don't remember anything about the skill of STW original.. grr it's been sooooo long ago and I doubt I ever played on hard or expert at it, before I reached a point where I could have, I got myself WE and was playing that instead.

[Noir]

I did the exact same question at the .com last summer and this is Puzz3D's reply post:

(by the way i play with his suggestions and it is much better).

STW v1.12 stats incorprated into the two STW/MI compatible .txt stat files.

-------------------
Troopstats.txt
-------------------

Projectile type: NONE = 0, LONG = 1, MTLG = 2, ARQB = 3, MSKT = 4, NINJ = 5
Unroutable: true = 1, false = 0
Marching speed: 1 - 24
Running speed: 1 - 24
Charging speed: 1 - 24
Minimum turning speed: 2 - 8
Maximum turning speed: 2 - 8
Max turning angle whilst in motion: 8 - 256
Speed at which soldier turns towards the direction of motion 8 - 8
Space between neighbours left and right: 30 - 125
Space between neighbours back and front: 30 - 125
Enemy engagement proximity threshold: 500 - 2000
Charge bonus: -6 - 12
Melee bonus: -6 - 12
Defence bonus: -6 - 12
Armour level: 1 - 12
Honour level: -4 - 8
Ammo ( arrows or bullets ): 0 - 255
Unit size (based on 60)


SamuraiArchers
{
1, 1, 6, 10, 10, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 500, 2, 0, 0, 1, 0, 28, 60
}

YariSamurai
{
0, 1, 6, 10, 10, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 1500, 0, 0, 2, 3, 2, 0, 60
}

Naginata
{
0, 1, 4, 8, 8, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 1500, 4, 0, 6, 5, 4, 0, 60
}

Nodachi
{
0, 1, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 192, 75, 75, 1500, 8, 5, -2, 1, 8, 0, 60
}

CavalryArchers
{
2, 1, 8, 20, 20, 2, 8, 8, 64, 115, 125, 500, 3, 1, 2, 3, 0, 28, 60
}

HeavyCavalry
{
0, 1, 8, 20, 20, 2, 8, 8, 8, 115, 125, 1500, 5, 2, 6, 5, 4, 0, 60
}

YariCavalry
{
0, 1, 10, 24, 24, 2, 8, 8, 8, 115, 125, 1500, 8, 2, 3, 3, 2, 0, 60
}

YariAshigaru
{
0, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 96, 75, 75, 1500, 0, -1, -1, 2, -4, 0, 60
}

Phantoms
{
0, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 96, 75, 75, 1500, 0, -1, -1, 2, -4, 0, 1
}

Arquebusier
{
3, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 128, 75, 75, 500, 0, -6, -3, 2, -4, 40, 60
}

Musketeer
{
4, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 192, 75, 75, 500, 0, -6, -3, 2, -4, 40, 60
}

WarriorMonk
{
0, 1, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 1500, 4, 5, 2, 1, 8, 0, 60
}

A_Ninja
{
5, 1, 8, 18, 18, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 300, 4, 8, 4, 4, 8, 100, 12
}

A_SwordsMan
{
0, 1, 10, 16, 16, 0, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 2000, 8, 18, 2, 8, 8, 0, 1
}

A_Mongol_Javelin_Thrower
{
6, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 192, 75, 75, 400, 0, 0, 0, 5, 0, 4, 60
}

A_Mongol_Spearman
{
0, 0, 6, 10, 12, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 1500, 0, 0, 1, 2, -1, 0, 60
}

A_Mongol_Polearmsman
{
0, 0, 5, 8, 10, 2, 8, 8, 256, 75, 75, 1500, 4, 2, 4, 4, 0, 0, 60
}

A_Grenadier
{
7, 0, 6, 8, 10, 2, 8, 8, 256,100,100, 100, 0,-6, -3, 2, 4, 3, 20
}

An_Ashigaru_Xbowman
{
8, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 96, 75, 75, 500, 0, -6, -3, 1, -5, 16, 60
}

A_Nijinata_Cavaleryman
{
0, 1, 8, 16, 20, 2, 8 , 8, 8,115,125, 1500, 4, 5, 2, 4, 8, 0, 60
}

A_Mongol_Light_Cavaleryman
{
2, 0, 10 ,26, 26, 2, 8, 8, 128,125,140, 1500, 4, 2, 2, 4, 4, 28, 60
}

A_Mongol_Heavy_Cavaleryman
{
0, 0, 10,20, 24, 2, 8, 8, 128,125,140, 1500, 6, 4, 4, 5, 8, 0, 60
}


-------------------
Projectiles.txt
-------------------

Projectile-type related stats:-

Length, Frequency, Range, Speed, Accuracy, Power, Reload, Is a gun?, Is Waterproof?

Longbow
{
25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.6, 0.5, 4, 0, 1
}

Mounted Longbow
{
25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.4, 0.5, 4, 0, 1
}

Arquebus
{
0, 15, 4000, 200, 0.07, 4.0, 30, 1, 0
}

Musket
{
0, 15, 5000, 250, 0.12, 4.0, 21, 1, 0
}

Ninja Star
{
0, 5, 1200, 100, 0.5, 1.0, 3, 0, 1
}

Javelin
{
0, 5, 1500, 90, 0.15, 2.0, 3, 0, 1
}

Grenade
{
0, 5, 1300, 80, 0.03, 6.0, 6, 0, 0
}

Crossbow
{
10, 5, 4000, 250, 0.15, 3.0, 15, 0, 1
}

-----------------------------------------------------

Notes:

The cost of warrior monks was raised in STW/MI v1.01 from 500 koku to 550 koku because they were slightly inderpriced.

You could give HC a bit more offensive punch by shifting a combat point from defense to melee making it a 3/5 (melee/defend) instead of the original 2/6. HC were supposed to defeat warrior monks decisively in STW v1.12, but they didn't because the charge bonus didn't work properly. Moving one combat point from defend to attack should help them.

Overall you could increase cavalry charge values by a couple of points if you want more effective cavalry. An increase of 4 charge points is roughly equivalent to an increase of 1 melee point which is a 20% increase in combat effectiveness.

The new MI units for the Sengoku period: kensai, ninja and naginata cavalry are a problem. Keep in mind that these new units were not balanced very well in STW/MI v1.00. The NC is the easiest to fix because the problem is that it's a WM stat unit with higher mobility and armor that only costs 450 koku. The cost is about 20% less than a WM, so that would translate into removal of 1 combat point making it a 4/2 (melee/defend) rather than 5/2. The value of the mobility and armor is harder to assess, but I would say take away another combat point making it a 3/2 , increase running speed from 16 to 20 and increase charge from 4 to 6.

The kensai and ninja are much harder to adjust since their small size and high melee capability gives them large battlefield upgrade possibilities. The kensai could be given less armor to make him more vulnerable to range fire and some of his combat power could be shifted from melee to defend. His running and charging speed should probably be lowered as well. The ninja should probably have less but more effective stars, and its running and charging speed should definitley be lowered from 18 to more like 12.

The muskets could be made to fire in rain if that's what you want by changing the "is waterproof" parameter from 0 to 1. In STW v1.12, they did not fire in rain, but they were supposed to and they did in STW/MI. The battle engine automatically gives them 25% misfires in light rain, 50% misfires in medium rain and 75% misfires in heavy rain.

The Mongol era units are very difficult to balance due to the extreme pricing of some of the units.I haven't made any adjustments to them in these files. The unit costs are internal to the exe, and can't be change.

I don't think you can change unit training times, but I'm not certain of that.

To clarify the stats I posted here. They are the STW/MI v1.0 stats except for the original STW v1.12 units which I returned to their original STW v1.12 values. The changes CA made to the original STW v1.12 units for STW/MI v1.0 degrade unit balance in the Sengoku Period. Those changes CA made were:

1. Samurai Archers were changed from 0/0 (melee/defend) to 0/-1
2. No-dachi were changed from 5/-2 (melee/defend) to 6/-2
3. Guns were both changed from power 4.0 to power 16.0
4. Muskets were changed from is waterproof = 0 to 1 so that they fired in rain which is how they were supposed to be in STW v1.12.

The change to the power of guns is particularly non-sensical because values greater than 8 do not increase the effectiveness of the volley. The system saturates at power = 8. Also, javelins were speed = 80 which prevented them from firing their full 1500 range, and we changed this in the v1.02 beta stat to 90 so that they can fire the full 1500 range.

[caravel]

Thanks Drisos and excetchzebe1.

Caravel

[Puzz3D]

The main reason original STW v1.12 was harder is that the AI can spend money it doesn't have. So, AI clans can build and train stuff without any building or support cost limitations. Some clans may not do that due to the different clan personalities. Hojo will eventually train huge armies because it gets a discount on castles so it builds them everywhere which gives them a lot of training sites. I also remember seeing a Mori horde in a Takeda campaign, but it wasn't as big as the Hojo hordes I saw reported which could attain a size of 30 full stacks in a single province.

The v1.12 stat itself will give somewhat more difficult battles because combined arms is still important after guns arrive, and since the AI is very good at making advantageous matchups, combined arms gameplay helps it. In STW/MI v1.02, the guns are so strong they reduce the need for combined arms, and the AI is not particularly good at using ranged units since it moves them around too much.

The difficulty levels as I recall are:

Easy: all your units get +4 morale.
Normal: no advantage to either side.
Hard: AI gets a 15% combat advantage (37% of an honor upgrade).
Expert: AI gets a 30% combat advantage (75% of an honor upgrade) +4 morale.

[caravel]

Well I've finished that campaign. I autocalced the last few battles. The final battle was against Usuegi in Sado province, which I did fight, though not very well. The AI is just not building enough, nor training enough units. I had accepted the Portuguese to keep my options open then built a new buddhist temple to lose the Daimyo's Christian status. I conquered the map using Warrior Monks and No-Dachi Samurai from Satsuma. I didn't build one border fort nor did the AI send many assassins my way.

Puzz3D, I will try the old stats tonight. Many thanks for those. I have one question however.

Longbow
{
25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.6, 0.5, 4, 0, 1
}

I may be misreading it, but in my projectiles.txt the second from last value is omitted, I think. Also in my troopstats.txt the unit sizes are not there.

I'm not worried about the Mongol units as I never play the Mongol campaign anyway, so I'll try the other suggested changes and see how it goes.

[Noir]

I found from the STW modding section of this forum, a minimod that wasaltering the Ai troop/building priorities for all AI personalities and it worked much better. I'll post a link if i find it again but it should berelatively easy to find.

Nice to see you back in uniform Caravel

[caravel]

I'll look into it, thanks.

[Flaxmac]

Hi All,

Could you please tell me who the 'Phantoms' are ?
What do I need to have to create them, from the ground up ?
Also what is the name of the total war pack that has Rome Shogun and Medieval all in the one package ?

Thanks.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Flaxmac.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to the Phantoms.

Also what is the name of the total war pack that has Rome Shogun and Medieval all in the one package ?

That would be Total War: Eras.

[Flaxmac]

Thanks for the feed back,
The Phantoms are listed above.

YariAshigaru
{
0, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 96, 75, 75, 1500, 0, -1, -1, 2, -4, 0, 60
}

Phantoms
{
0, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 96, 75, 75, 1500, 0, -1, -1, 2, -4, 0, 1
}

Arquebusier
{
3, 0, 7, 12, 12, 2, 8, 8, 128, 75, 75, 500, 0, -6, -3, 2, -4, 40, 60
}

[Noir]

I was wondering about that too

they appear to be ... a single ashigaru (they have the same stats but only one man in the unit) !!

[caravel]

They are.... moderators....

I noticed those as well, I wonder what they're used for?

[Noir]

posted by caravel

"They are.... moderators.... "

Light foot (ashi-garu) moderating eh?

[Puzz3D]

Puzz3D, I will try the old stats tonight. Many thanks for those. I have one question however.

Longbow
{
25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.6, 0.5, 4, 0, 1
}

I may be misreading it, but in my projectiles.txt the second from last value is omitted, I think. Also in my troopstats.txt the unit sizes are not there.

The last number may be on the next line. These stat files have unformatted lines. The braces, {}, determine the beginning and end of the data with commas separating the values. The unit size must be there.

The Phantoms are unused.

[caravel]

The last number may be on the next line. These stat files have unformatted lines. The braces, {}, determine the beginning and end of the data with commas separating the values. The unit size must be there.

What I mean is that the "waterproof" column isn't there. Only the "is it a gun column" which instead of being a boolean 0 or 1 is a "false" string.

[Puzz3D]

What I mean is that the "waterproof" column isn't there. Only the "is it a gun column" which instead of being a boolean 0 or 1 is a "false" string.

Can you paste the contents of your projectiles.txt file into a post or a pm to me? Make sure word wrap is enabled if you are using notepad.

The game keeps a set of unit stats internally, and it uses them if the external stat files are missing. I suppose it might also use the internal stats if the external files are incomplete.

[caravel]

Puzz3D, this is my Projectiles.txt file.

Regards


Caravel

[Puzz3D]

Which game package are you using? I was unaware of these changes to the stat files.

The 'true' or 'false' may be interchangeable with '1' or '0', and maybe, if you put the extra parameters for "Is Waterproof" and for "Unit Size" at the end of the lines delineated by a comma, the game will use them. However, it's not really important for simulating STW v1.12 stats because these particular parameters are the same as the STW/MI v1.02 parameters except for the muskets not firing in rain. The gameplay is ok either way with muskets firing in rain or not.

So, what I would do to try the v1.12 stats is edit new troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt files that conform to the format used in your version of the game. Make sure you save a copy of the originals first.

[caravel]

Which game package are you using? I was unaware of these changes to the stat files.

The english language verson of STW 1.0 with the Mongol Invasion installed and then the whole lot patched to STW/MI/1.02

The 'true' or 'false' may be interchangeable with '1' or '0', and maybe, if you put the extra parameters for "Is Waterproof" and for "Unit Size" at the end of the lines delineated by a comma, the game will use them. However, it's not really important for simulating STW v1.12 stats because these particular parameters are the same as the STW/MI v1.02 parameters except for the muskets not firing in rain. The gameplay is ok either way with muskets firing in rain or not.

So, what I would do to try the v1.12 stats is edit new troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt files that conform to the format used in your version of the game. Make sure you save a copy of the originals first.

Ok I'll try that, thanks.

Caravel

[caravel]

Well I finally got up and running using the old stats last night.

I started an Imagawa/SJ/Hard campaign and it was going ok until the Oda and Mori clans disappeared leaving masses of rebels. Now the Uesugi look set to dominate the North, and I am looking at the prospect of fighting the rebels in the south. All is quiet on the front with the Shimazu though I have enough garrisons there to hold out if they decide to try anything. I had expected reappearances of the Oda and Mori but nothing.

Anyway, I have definitely noticed the difference in battle. The 1.12 stats make all the difference.

Another thing, I have never played the separate era campaigns (1530/1550/1580), there seem to be a lot of rebel provinces in those campaigns, are they any better than the SJ campaign?

[Puzz3D]

Well I finally got up and running using the old stats last night.

How did you get the v1.12 stats to work?

[Maeda Toshiie]

The only difference b/w the v1.12 stats file and the v1.02 is the additional column for the unit sizes. I have not noticed any additional ones for the projectile stats.

[caravel]

How did you get the v1.12 stats to work?

Well after the reinstall and patching my stats no longer had that missing column and the TRUE/FALSE instead of 0/1. I'm not sure what was causing that before.

I just copied the data from Noir's post above into the projectiles and units stats files and it works fine.

[Puzz3D]

OK thanks.

I'm currently playing a campaign in STW/MI v1.02 using the STW v1.12 stats. To better integrate the three new Japanese units into the TW v1.12 stat, I changed the attack value of the naginata cav from 5 to 4, and the run speed from 16 to 20. I also reduced the run and charge speed of kensai from 16 to 12 and of battlefield ninja from 18 to 14.

For some reason, the cost of cav archers and yari cav is 500 in the campaign. Their cost in custom battle is 450 and 475 respectively which are the original costs in STW. I don't know why the costs are different in the campaign.

[caravel]

Yes I'm not sure where that strange stats file came from, I can only think I installed the wrong patch, though I'm sure that patch 1.12 patch file was one that I had burned onto a CD since it was released.

I will try those stat changes you've suggested.

[minishog]

Another thing, I have never played the separate era campaigns (1530/1550/1580), there seem to be a lot of rebel provinces in those campaigns, are they any better than the SJ campaign?

Hi there, long-time lurker here. Just registered to respond to this as it seems no-one else is going to.

A few months ago I played all the factions on expert in SJ, 1530, 1550, and 1580. (Strictly speaking I still have to complete the very last one i.e. Uesegi in 1580, but I've got all the east, have large armies, am in no danger, and just working my way through the other provinces. Then I needed a rest so went onto other games for a while.)

In my opinion the 1530/50/80 scenarios are at least as good as the original and at least some of them are far more challenging and fun. Having fewer provinces and units to start with usually makes the placement of every unit critical. Working out opening and early moves on the strategy map can be very testing. I often had to test my way through every combination of moves I could think of before finding ones that would work. Saving every turn was vital (for me) until I could find a winning strategy (- that tends to become truer as the starting date gets later and the starting position moves east, with Uesegi as a possible exception to that).

Personally, I would recommend that people give these scenarios a try, not that I know anything, certainly not compared to lots of you guys.

[Dexter]

hy minishog , welcome the the org

i must agree that the 1530/50/80 are more challenging - and more accurate historically this is a big bonus for me -

Sorry to say it but it seems most of the org members are preocupied whit MTW2 and maybe some of them whit mods for RTW ... there are not many who still play Shogun, to bad ..
Those ho started whit the newer TW games tend not to like Shogun ..
For me it was a good game back in 2000 ... still is .. playing since ... if i have the time

[caravel]

I bought Shogun not long after it was first released and still still play it. These days I play it more than Medieval because I tend to mod that game more than play it.

minishog and Dexter have definitely inspired me to try the 1530/1550/1580 campaigns now. I haven't played them before as I had bought MI quite late after it's release and as expansion packs go I wasn't at all impressed with it and it's extra fantasy units and one dimensional mongol campaign.

[minishog]

Thanks for the welcome Dexter - I just couldn't let Caravel (whose posts I read with interest) not be provided with some awareness of the fun in those other scenarios. I must have bought Shogun around the same time as you. I just saw it in a shop and liked the look of it. I do think it is better than M:TW. I tried the demo of Rome and was horrified and avidly read the postings in the Rome forum but they ended up convincing me that I would not want it even if it were free. M:TW2 seems like it's ok but I don't have it as yet. In any case I have barely scratched the surface of M:TW, which I do very much like even though S:TW has the edge.

Good choice Caravel, I hope you won't be disappointed.