how do i make a good 20 unit 10k army?

[pike master]

i read the rules on that and i think its fair about 12 ha for a team i dont see a problem with that but i have heard other guys cry if you use more than 2 ha per person. i think that carries it a little too far.

and even against my cavalry i will ignore horse archers the only time i pay attention to them is when the battle has reached its climax and i know they are going to come between 4 to 8 oclock everytime so as long as i keep in mind that they are back there and to be ready i rarely get surprised.

iv even watched my general get hammered by horsearchers and ignore them and they might take out maybe 25 percent tops before the battles joined. they just dont have the punch they enjoyed in rome which is why its a dead rule to put a limit on them.

let the rattlesnake lose in the house because you took his fangs away :)

i dont have a problem if there is no art or ele but ca did a good job taking the bite out of horse archers.

[x-dANGEr]

It always has kinda annoyed me when people go on about practice and training, for a game

It sounds worse that you get annoyed by it than them practicing.

[guyfawkes5]

They are based on the Original Forumite rules I once posted at their forums:
max 4 every kind
max 4 cav
max 4 archers
no fire art
Those are the Forumite rules, and they added this to it:
no eles
no art
HA count as both cav as archers

Our rules are just no artillery and no elephants (I don't agree with the no elephants) now. The horse archer rule was just plain retarded anyway, it something of an over-reaction after I used Byzantine horse archers against them and they didn't know how to counter them. Seems to me like Manspammer pulled a fast one on you. Hee hee.

And as for filling all the slots, I disagree with most here; I played with the Byzantines for a while with all twenty slots filled. You obviously use your superiority in numbers to overwhelm the enemy, but it's important you make the enemy attack you since the 'outnumbered' morale dent doesn't seem to occur to the enemy when you're attacking, at least in my experience.

[pike master]

spammed horse archer armies are practically worthless now because their missile damage is reduced and they run out of ammo very quickly.

[Kenchi_Shaka]

And as for filling all the slots, I disagree with most here; I played with the Byzantines for a while with all twenty slots filled. You obviously use your superiority in numbers to overwhelm the enemy, but it's important you make the enemy attack you since the 'outnumbered' morale dent doesn't seem to occur to the enemy when you're attacking, at least in my experience.

i didnt say 20 units is most effective. filling all the slot forces ppl to get a "lighter" army in most cases. i like that sort of games. its a rule in my games.
if all get 20 units nobody has a significant superiority in numbers.

[pike master]

you need as many units as you can get. what was napoleons maxim. the battle belongs to the army with the most battalions or something like that.

[Callahan9119]

i dont mind horse ARCHERS horse xbows are a pain though

[x-dANGEr]

Exactly. Battalions.. Not peasants.

[ElmarkOFear]

The mounted crossbow cav don't really kill much with their arrows. They really come into their own by being able to outrun other units and cav to get to the enemy's flanks and then hit them in the rear with the nice charge bonus and push-through technique being used currently. Plus, they can hold a knight cav unit up until something which can kill it arrives. They are definitely powerful given their cost and their late-game usefulness in chasing down and routing small, fatigued units.

[Monarch]

It sounds worse that you get annoyed by it than them practicing.

"kinda annoyed me", I'm hardly making posters about it am I. Seriously man...

[RTKBarrett]

The mounted crossbow cav don't really kill much with their arrows. They really come into their own by being able to outrun other units and cav to get to the enemy's flanks and then hit them in the rear with the nice charge bonus and push-through technique being used currently. Plus, they can hold a knight cav unit up until something which can kill it arrives. They are definitely powerful given their cost and their late-game usefulness in chasing down and routing small, fatigued units.

WO WO WWOOOOOOO STOP RIGHT THERE!!
Elmo the mounted xbow is possibly the most underpriced unit in the game, if u get say 4... split them into pairs u can harrass cav from all angles having it so that at least 2 are firing in the back, u can kill off whole units with no trouble at all i find.
I agree especially in this game their importance in chasing down routers as sometimes that is more important than using them to flank "live and active" enemy units...

[Callahan9119]

i hate them, and if i dont take similar units or borderhorse types i am screwed cuz they seem to kill more than archers and my big dumb cav cant chase them

why i like "all" era games cuz my muskets can kill em easy with long range

[RTKBarrett]

i hate them, and if i dont take similar units or borderhorse types i am screwed cuz they seem to kill more than archers and my big dumb cav cant chase them

why i like "all" era games cuz my muskets can kill em easy with long range

What happens if ure opponent sends them around ure muskets and out of danger, so that they can form up behind u

[RTKBarrett]

i hate them, and if i dont take similar units or borderhorse types i am screwed cuz they seem to kill more than archers and my big dumb cav cant chase them

why i like "all" era games cuz my muskets can kill em easy with long range

What happens if ure opponent sends them around ure muskets and out of danger, so that they can form up behind u

[ElmarkOFear]

Elmo the mounted xbow is possibly the most underpriced unit in the game, if u get say 4... split them into pairs u can harrass cav from all angles having it so that at least 2 are firing in the back, u can kill off whole units with no trouble at all i find.

I haven't really observed that, probably for the very simple fact, my armies aren't around long enough on the battlefield to give the cross cav time enough to shoot em up!

I agree they are underpriced, given their archer ability, speed, charge, and hand -to-hoof fighting ability.

[x-dANGEr]

"kinda annoyed me", I'm hardly making posters about it am I. Seriously man...

Sorry for delivering you what I caught from your sentence. It sounds really strange that you're annoyed because people practice to win a tourney.. Oh, at least that's how I understood "kinda annoyed me".

[Callahan9119]

well barrett, most games i play there is 2 Ha limit so 1 unit of muskets is all i need, not hard to move them to my rear and leave 3 in my front missle line

[Chaos Cornelius lucius]

Hi guys, first post on this.
If you think that HA are a waste of money and not very effective, then all I can say is that you are not using them correctly. Granted HA are not as effective as foot archers, but they are not meant to be, use them to shoot at the sides and rear of units, they are more effective that way. And it is perfectly possible to flatten a unit of heavy infantry with a charge from light HA (skythion, Khazaks etc). The abilities HA have make them an indispensible part of an army for me. Which is why I really do not like the max HA rule, as it effectively penalises some of the factions, and forces you to choose an army mix you would not otherwise pick for that faction.
It is possible to make a 'good' 20 unit 10k army as well, with nearly all the factions, although I do find it difficuly in late era games as most of the units available are relatively expensive and picking a 20 unit medium army will quite probably end up with you been flattened by a 15 unit heavy army. Shaka's 20 unit rule makes very good sense in this regard.
Luc

[Callahan9119]

hmm i have played too many games that require everyone to 3X speed the game at the end for 15 minutes cuz someone is being a lamer with horse archers and wont commit to a fight, i find it hard to be sympathetic to anybody saying 2 HA limit ruins mongols, hungary etc,...i do fine with 2 HA as mongols...there is a reason its a fairly common rule...now if it was a "2 jaguar warrior limit" i could see how that might ruin the faction

if i am hosting like a scored 7k 3 vs 3, by all means take 15 HA, then i at least know someone will be below me for sure in the score from the start

[x-dANGEr]

It is a spread rule, because people don't know how to deal with HA (At least most of them), just the same as they couldn't back in RTW.

[ElmarkOFear]

One way to battle against crossbow cav, I guess, would be to buy a few fast cav and wait until they are in a position away from their main force and then go after them. Even if you don't catch them, it will keep them busy running away instead of shooting your men. The maps are so large, it is very hard to corner them, like on the old MTW maps.

[Callahan9119]

yes, why my normal army (Scots) always has 2 border horse...but they cant really kill the xbows, i just tie em up till i can get a unit of heavies to them

maps are huge in m2, not the the same as cornering them in rome, they do less dmg but are just as annoying, especially if some tool has 3 units of them at the end of a rough battle, u gotta chase them all over the map with exhausted heavily wounded units, or stand there wanting to stab yourself in the face on 3x speed while they use all their slow to shoot lasting forever xbows

[ElmarkOFear]

Have CA program cav archer units, left over after all other units have routed, to shoot all their remaining arrows in one big volley and immediately charge the nearest enemy unit.

Put that battle AI to some use after all. :)

[t1master]

used the mounted xbow for the first time last night. they are a tuff skirmisher cav. good for flanking at end game too.

[x-dANGEr]

I'd suggest.. Having a couple of Light Cavalry units. Make one of them do all the chasing (So, your enemies HA get tired and their arrows will only kill the light cavalry unit..), then engage with the other Light Cavalry units when the enemy's HA fall to a certain level of fatigue that you can consider "slow".

[RTKBarrett]

well barrett, most games i play there is 2 Ha limit so 1 unit of muskets is all i need, not hard to move them to my rear and leave 3 in my front missle line

Sab i guarrantee against a half decent opponent u wouldnt be able to fire off more than one usket volley on his mounted xbows lol

[Callahan9119]

muskets have nice range

i normally never get to use muskets anyways unless i am hosting a novelty game, and none of the "cool dudes" like to join those...so my musket balls strike only fun loving newbs

[RTKBarrett]

It doesnt matter if muskets have nice range if ure aiming in the wrong direction mate :D

[Callahan9119]

It doesnt matter if muskets have nice range if ure aiming in the wrong direction mate :D

but i use magic bullets