parthian cav army of death

[JusWizWar]

guyfawkes5

Not a rant its logic!

20 units mtw2 16 units mtw/vi. Look at the big picture of my statement instead of line by line.

Faction upgrades work! What is important is the faction strengths in certain era's. Of course since you have only mastered one era you wouldn't know about that.

I play 10K games but with the same old people. Still fun but limited! More and more new people are playing more maps, more era's and more florins. You HAVE been left behind. But have your fun your way, that is what it's about.

Mad Cat Mech
Peasants are also called Militia in lots of cases! Some trained some not.
You can't get 20 units with 10K florins in High or Late/All. That means 20 upper or Mid mixed units. Peasants should not be mandatory because of low florin games.

The game will be much better I hope after the next patch!

[7Bear7Bottom]

10k is played for a reason, it is to "try" and balance the factions and units.

Not many enjoy playing a spam army of any type on-line, most peole like to match units to units and make an army effective with all units involved. This is where the fun is in this game. Making an effective attack with different types of units that have a role to play as a larger army.

Shogun was limited to 8k koku because of the 1 unit beating all senario. Valour gain was hard to achieve at this level and made it a challenging game.

MTW was limited to 15k if I remember right because the cav was too strong in swiping other units. So in order to balance that we gave the spear and sword units some edge with more florins. This gave the Italian spears the ability to swipe back.

VI, it was the opposite effect, the higher in florins you went the stronger Infentry became and made cav useless. 5k was taken away to increase the cav power in the game. 10k became the standard, and some would argue 8k games were just enjoyable if not better.

Rome was just a mess of bugs and silly units that could wipe everything out in one charge. CA got their act togather in the patches and fixed the major flaws in the game, but even still some units are still ridiculously over powered. The community tried to balance this with 12.5k and rightly so.

MT2W is here now and we all can see the cav is way too powerfull and we have alot of units with bugs in them, like the 2 handed unit bug with cav. The only 2 handed units working right now are pikes. 10k is the standard to limit the more expensive cav from entering in the game.

If the patch fixes these problems, I can see the florins being raised a bit higher as standard. But I can garrentee that the majority will never play 99999k games because of these problems in balancing units. Like I said, playing spam armies is not the enjoyable part of the game and lacks very little skill.

So 10k is here for a reason, it is to balance the units and to prevent spam armies of over powered units like cav and elephants.

If you like playing with spam armies then so be it, but the majority in the community will stick with the around 10k standard and it will be the standard in all the tournaments being hosted within reason.

Clans play tournaments, tournaments need to be fair and balanced, balanced armies will come by limited florins, therefore the standard for playing the game will be around 10k. There's no way out of it.

[guyfawkes5]

20 units mtw2 16 units mtw/vi.

Thing is you keep saying that but I never said anything about Viking Invasion.

Faction upgrades work!

Never claimed they didn't.

What is important is the faction strengths in certain era's. Of course since you have only mastered one era you wouldn't know about that.

When did I ever say anything about... urgh, forget it.

I play 10K games but with the same old people. Still fun but limited! More and more new people are playing more maps, more era's and more florins. You HAVE been left behind.

From my experience in the lobby the majority of games are still at 10,000 florins with a few games at 12,000 and 15,000 and above (i.e. 1,000,000).

Peasants are also called Militia in lots of cases! Some trained some not. You can't get 20 units with 10K florins in High or Late/All. That means 20 upper or Mid mixed units. Peasants should not be mandatory because of low florin games.

Firstly - no wonder you 'can't' fill up twenty unit slots when you count all militia unit as peasants. Secondly - you keep saying 'upper and mid mixed units'. In my previous post I just explained why it's not really feasible game-wise to have armies composed entirely of upper-tier units. Please engage the argument or stop repeating yourself.

But have your fun your way, that is what it's about.

At least that's one thing we agree on.

[JusWizWar]

guyfawkes5: The reason I keep repeating is because you don't get it! In my first post I talked about the differents between 16 armies for MTW/VI and 20 armies for MTW 2, so why have the same standard for 16 units as for 20 units, you just missed it. NP

You claimed upgrade's won't help even-up to more elite units, wrong! Besides units are used because there effective agaist other units: billmen to horse, sword to spear...etc.

Faction strenghts (more or less units) in different era's make them more playable in a given era, you never said that, but I did.

"all militia unit as peasants": yes they are, read the unit description. Mid level and Higher level units can be distinguished by their power stats and florin cost.
With 12.5 for high you can mix Elite units with Mid units for a good 20 unit army without peasants being mandatory. Of course you could get more elite units and then fill with lower units,(peasant militia) this would make it a personnel choice not a mandatory one.

7Bear7Bottom: Salut Bears from C|GOS :) Agree that bugs need fixed first to find the balance in MTW2. But my florin & unit points are right on! Spam armies can be limited by rules of tournaments or games for that matter. (like no art) As far as Clan tournaments goes; they never finish without a rule change in middle of tournament and/or with the length they are always tainted. Playing the same map and same florins is a limitation of the game. Why not have 3, 4, 5, standards instead of the same boring one. There is new thinking in the lobby and there is no way around that! As the new generation MTW2 has changed from past generations of TW, so must the standard to fit for this new game. Why make a player play mandatory low units. Give them the choice as I layed out above. Its about fun not standards!

[JusWizWar]

Update list for patch 1.2
« Thread Started on Today at 4:20pm » [Quote]
Primary features for Update 2:

1) The Launcher
2) Fully implemented Hotseat mode
3) Cinematic Editor
4) Battle Editor (now fully functional)

Resolved Bugs/Issues:

AI
• Units do not clump together when told to complete a 180 degree turn.
• Janissary Musketeers now fire consistently.
• Enemy AI army formations in bridge battles now allow their own artillery to fire.
• Enemy cannons do not fire at unbreakable walls.
• Grouped archers out of ammo will attack enemy units in melee combat when ordered to do so.
• AI does not deploy outside of enemy gates.
• When defending an enemy settlement with multiple exits, taking your army out of the side/back door does not make it easier to defeat the enemy.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• Cavalry can now charge a spearman army.
• General's bodyguard unit now marches correctly outside castles.
• AI now effectively assaults 2nd tier of a Fortress.
• Sallying AI army now reacts properly to being assaulted from 2 sides
• Attacking Siege AI concentrates on taking the settlement rather than chasing down units outside the settlement.
• Generals are now more effective at chasing down routing units.
• Enemy AI reacts to being bombarded with Trebuchets while inside a settlement.
• Siege AI now more difficult to defeat if player places missile units outside the walls.
• AI controls it units more effectively in a Citadel
• AI artillery more decisive in its positioning
• Remaining AI army now advances to use siege equipment
• AI Cavalry can now flank a Spear Wall
• AI now responds to missiles when sieging settlements
• AI now crosses bridges to attack
• AI responds more quickly to gates that have been opened by Spies (while sieging).
• Units do not break formation when chasing routers
• Enemy AI effectively attacks when player's units in a settlement square
• Enemy AI now utilises spare rams
• Improved enemy AI response to stakes
• Shortened Siege attack timers
• Enemy AI will no-longer send out General's bodyguard on a suicide mission while defending

Diplomacy
• Improved responses to monetary offers
• Bribery attempts do not always fail after an unsuccessful first attempt
• Diplomatic 'Just Rejected' response no-longer to 'Not Interested' response to counter-offer, no matter how generous
• Aztecs now appear in the correct year (for diplomacy actions)
• Generals in a Crusade do not get inquisition
• Improved diplomacy mechanic - AI Factions now stick with alliances and/or attack 'more intelligently'

Crash
• Soft-locks in MP Lobby no-longer occur
• Host random hangs fixed
• Resolved issue with client CTD when host ends game that client is joining
• Auto-resolve Siege battle hangs fixed
• Siege tower catching fire no-longer causes random hangs
• Random hangs after loading Campaign save game

Pathfinding
• Battering Rams no-longer stuck in gates
• Ship movement area fixed
• Ram crew no-longer stuck between rams
• Northern European Castle terrain fixed to allow docking of towers
• Improved use of ladders
• Southern European Fortress wall fixed to allow docking of towers
• Improved the way units use Way-points
• Siege of Setenil slow-down tweaked
• Units no-longer become stuck on canyon walls on 'Canyon' map
• Units do not ascend/descend invisible ladders
• Units do not get stuck on Siege towers
• Cavalry pathfinding improved when sallying out from a Fortress
• Bridge battle pathfinding improved (units do not constantly reform)
• Citadel and Fortress paths fixed so that units can avoid assaulting inner walls
• Breach pathfinding tweaked

Combat
• Enemy spearmen do not charge with raised spears
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• Defending units can no-longer enter a siege tower as soon as it docks with the walls

Mechanics
• Mouse Cursor position now updates when scrolling with the arrow keys.
• Assassination exploit fixed.
• Mission "Reinforce Region" now functions correctly
• Attacking an enemy army from inside a sieged settlement no-longer causes the enemy to lose all built siege equipment
• Fixed two family members (brothers) with the exact same name
• Rudder event now triggers at the correct time
• When an enemy sallies and is defeated you no-longer have to wait for the timer to run out in-order to win.
• Assassin mechanics tweaked
• Mercenary recruitment tweaked
• Diplomatic Information scroll updates correctly.
• Online replays now match
• Slowdown fixed on Desert Sanctuary
• Metallic Resource now support Mines
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Units can now withdraw on the Eifel Mountains Battle Map
• Construction queue exploits fixed
• The carroccio standard can now fit through the gate on a sally out battle.
• Southern European > Fortress: routing Enemy AI now leaving the map
• Printing press event triggers at the correct time
• Ladder docking/undocking tweaked
• Faction standings tweaked
• Priests no-longer convert to heretics if travelling on a fleet
• Hotseat Game-mode added
• Upper limit added on how long units stay in loose formation for.
• Traits/VnV triggers tweaked

Camera
• Camera height does not drop under bridge in River Po Custom Battle map.
• Camera does not drop below water's surface in Palm Beach, Andalusia and Italian Wars map/scenarios.
• Camera does not show the underneath of a bridge when General is killed on the bridge

Controls
• Drag Deploy functionality tweaked
• RTS camera functionality tweaked

Graphics
• Princess character now greyed out upon death on Family tree
• Venice battlemap ambient building placement tweaked
• Fixed issue with trees disappearing when panning camera
• Added paths to doorways in Southern European Large City
• Added paths to doorways in Southern European City
• Fixed minor lighting issue in Southern European City
• Fixed misaligned platforms in Southern European Large Town
• Tweaked Crusade Army banner
• Fixed texture gaps and unwelded verts on Middle Eastern Huge City buildings.
• Fixed incorrect Tower Path in Mesoamerican City
• Fixed path through wall in Mesoamerican City Wall
• Fixed floating buildings above the battle map in Aztec Gold Scenario
• Fixed floating spikes in Mountain Redoubt scenario
• Added correct image for Paladin ancillary
• Fixed grey reinforcement area that states that 'This army cannot fight in night battles' even though the current battle is not a night battle.
• Added correct image for Aztec Rebel - Native Archer
• Added correct image for Aztec Spearmen
• Fixed floating torches in SE Citadel courtyard
• Garrison quarters no-longer change to Town Guard when in Construction queue
• Armoury building image in construction queue no-longer changes to an armoury
• Fixed issue with Trebuchets sometimes disappearing when zooming in close
• Fixed maps have the winter option but don’t have winter texture on the battle map
• Night attack selection tick and reinforcements do not disappear if user selects night attack option and then views enemy army details.
• Fixed officers not animating while riding
• Removed trees in the water in The Battle of Otumba.

Deployment
• Units can no-longer be deployed on inaccessible sections of wall
• Fixed deployment issues with Southern European Wooden Castle on either side of the main gate.
• Units no-longer deployable in buildings in Mesoamerican City

Collision
• Ballista collision improved
• Southern European Citadel gate collision improved
• Middle Eastern Gatehouse collision improved
• Issues with units getting pushed into areas that can't be deployed into.
Battle Editor/Cinematic Editor
• Numerous issues with both editors fixed and improved so that they can be released for public use.

UI
• Mission scroll hotkey added
• Financial Details hotkey functionality and tooltip added
• Reveal/Advance advice hotkey functionality added
• Battle Tutorial Dismiss advice functionality added
• Magnifying glass added to Disaster Strikes scroll
• Princess appears correctly on family tree
• Chat Window errors fixed
• Family Tragedy scroll triggered correctly
• Console text appearance tweaked
• Now possible to launch game from autorun launcher
• Fine Grain time control added (accessible by holding Shift and clicking + and - on battle UI)

Save/Load
• Loading saved game of the same turn no-longer allows user to keep both allies when they declare war
• Russian and Czech autosave fixed

Audio
• Movement_Embark speech now triggered correctly
• Allies breaking through gates of citadel now triggers correct speech
• Battle ending in draw when timer runs out now triggers correct speech
• Campaign Map interface sounds added
• End Turn sound now fades out nicely
• Win/Lose music is now representative of the Faction
• Enemy King killed speech now triggered
• Enemy Reinforcements arrive speech now triggered correctly
• Player Army Tired Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Army Half Gone Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Enemy Army Half Gone Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Under Attack Idle Battle Event Speech is now triggered.
• Player Winning Combat Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Losing Combat Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Leaves Fleet speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Tide Of Battle Up Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Player Tide Of Battle Down Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Muslim Enemy General Killed Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Christian Enemy General Killed Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• Allied General Captured Battle Event Speech now triggered correctly.
• The "spy infiltrated our settlement" audio/speech is now played when "Start battle" is pressed during cutscene
• Correct region music plays when loading a saved campaign game.
• Added sound trigger for planting archer stakes in ground.
• Clicked-on characters on the Campaign Map no-longer stack their audio response if clicked multiple times.
• In the Historical battles, Battle of Otumba and the Battle of Hastings the music speeds up when you attack
• Other minor audio tweaks also carried out.

Text
• Minor grammar/spelling errors fixed

[guyfawkes5]

JusWizWar, my eyes are actually bleeding from reading your posts. In some attempt to derive some logic from the splatters you call posts, I will attempt to summise for you. It boils down to that you consider lower-end units useless and thus want more money to be 'free' of using them. I and most others here would disagree; militia units are supremely useful and sometimes can even win you battles.

And you talk about 'mandatory'... no-one is forcing you to go by their rules. Again, just host your own games if everyone else is so stupid and you know better.

[ElmarkOFear]

Guyfawkes and Wiz: I can't believe you guys are arguing since you both AGREE that playing at different florin levels, with different maps, eras, unit sizes, etc . . is GOOD for keeping the MP game interesting. You both are encouraging change.

The only thing you two appear to disagree upon is whether to raise or lower florin levels from the 10K standard. By arguing with each other over this minor issue, you are both inadvertently going against your ideas on MP setting variety.

Please reread your last few posts and realize you two agree on more things than you disagree on, so don't let this one small issue take away from the discussion and encouragement to others to try new settings for MP. :)

[7Bear7Bottom]

Thanks for the re-post of the fixes Elmo, it is too early for us as a community to say what will be standard florins or if high florin games will be fun.

We really need a patch to fix all these bugs.

• Enemy spearmen do not charge with raised spears
• 2H axemen attack tweaked, inc. Attacking Cavalry
• Cavalry charges do not fail when charging skirmishing/moving units or if a knight is out of position
• Units do not clump together when told to complete a 180 degree turn.
• Grouped archers out of ammo will attack enemy units in melee combat when ordered to do so.
• Soft-locks in MP Lobby no-longer occur
• Host random hangs fixed
• Resolved issue with client CTD when host ends game that client is joining
• Online replays now match

These are the most critical fixes IMO, and there doesn't seem to be any dulling down on the cav power. I suspect the florins will be lowered or cav will be a rule set of 8 cav max.

Even though the shield upgrade is not fixed here, I think the reason why it doesn't seem to work is because of all these other variables making it not noticable.

[guyfawkes5]

The only thing you two appear to disagree upon is whether to raise or lower florin levels from the 10K standard. By arguing with each other over this minor issue, you are both inadvertently going against your ideas on MP setting variety.

I made it clear in my posts that he is obviously free to set whatever rules he wants in his games, I just merely disagreed with the reasons he gave for doing so and also the fact he says everyone else 'will be left behind' as his rules are supposedly going to become the standard.

By the way, why can't edit my posts?

[JusWizWar]

You got it 7bears, changes need to be made, bugs first fllorins will be next! guyfawkes5 keep hitting your head on the wall, maybe you will see the light and expand your own limited boundaries.

[Stig]

By the way, why can't edit my posts?

You haven't been nice enough to become a normal member yet ... and you know I like it

[ElmarkOFear]

LOL Stig. :)

Always bugs first, then the deciding of settings. That goes without saying. All discussion up to this point concerning bugs/balances etc . . are moot until we find out the specifics of the patch.

Though Wiz, to be honest and fair, Guy and the clan he belongs to: NF, DO play with many different settings, maps, florin levels, unit sizes, etc . . They are one of the few clans, besides yours obviously, that do such.

I think Guy has a problem with you not liking to use peasant units or wanting to be able to fill out all 20 slots instead of having to go with lesser or fewer units. But at any level of florins, except extremely high, you still have to make such decisions. It isn't about expanding one's playing style, but more personal choice between your two likes/dislikes.

You two should play sometime soon. You play at his florin level and he plays at yours. Then you two can better discuss the merits/problems of such florin levels from a similar base of knowledge. :)

[guyfawkes5]

You haven't been nice enough to become a normal member yet ... and you know I like it

I'm not allowed join? This is like the badminton club all over again...

[Carl]

Although I don't think Wiz has put his point across as well as he could have done, i would tend to agree with him.

I will admit that i haven't played M2TW MP yet, and probably never will as I'm not the sort of person who can enjoy exploiting every bug just to win.

On the other Hand I like to play custom a fair bit, and I run my own ProblemFixer, (see Sig for link), so as to fix the 2-hander and shield bugs.

The simple reality is that 3 Town militia are vastly outperformed by 2 DFK, just as 2 Armored Sarges outperform 3 Spear Militia by a Big margin. Yes the Spear/Town militia is slightly cheaper, but in the long term (especially with spear unit), it's better from a combat point of view to have a smaller number of better units than a larger number of cheap trash units. I'd even go so far as to say that once DFK and their equivalents become available, Spear Militia and Town Militia and Peasants cease to be very powerful. This goes double for spear militia who struggle with anything above Mailed Knights when it comes to Cav.

Thus in general I don't expect good competitive post fix stacks to include many of these units, if any at all. All of a sudden it's going to become VERY difficult to build a full 20 unit army. At that point a slightly higher florin limit to allow the new more elite stacks to reach 20 units probably WOULD be a good idea IMHO. I find myself using 11-12K a lot ATM so his suggestion of 12.5K may not be far off in reality.

[ElmarkOFear]

Unfortunately, the clan competitive circuit, is really the main determining factor for what settings are played in the MP lobby. The majority of games are practicing for competitions, which have a standard set of rules, use mostly the flat grassy plains map, and have limits on how many of each type of units you can have and limits on what units are allowed. This leads to new players being forced to play at certain settings, unless they host their own games. Even then it takes awhile before people will join those games.

Myself, I like playing with all the different florin levels, 5k through 20k, all the maps (except those with buggy deployment zones). I would experiment with different unit sizes, but unfortunately, for bigger games the host must place the units on small unit size to accomodate those who have less than new PCs. I cannot play a 3v3 or 4v4 game on normal setting without a lot of lag, since my PCs are the same ones I use for MTW1. hehe :)

[Carl]

Unfortunately, the clan competitive circuit, is really the main determining factor for what settings are played in the MP lobby. The majority of games are practicing for competitions, which have a standard set of rules, use mostly the flat grassy plains map, and have limits on how many of each type of units you can have and limits on what units are allowed. This leads to new players being forced to play at certain settings, unless they host their own games. Even then it takes awhile before people will join those games.

Myself, I like playing with all the different florin levels, 5k through 20k, all the maps (except those with buggy deployment zones). I would experiment with different unit sizes, but unfortunately, for bigger games the host must place the units on small unit size to accomodate those who have less than new PCs. I cannot play a 3v3 or 4v4 game on normal setting without a lot of lag, since my PCs are the same ones I use for MTW1. hehe :)

LOL, and fair point I geuss, the only other MP community i've ever been part of is the DoW one which tends to have non-competetive players around more (well at least it has games that are somthing other than the "standard", (and not all are noob stomps all the time)).

[guyfawkes5]

Those are good points Carl and a lot of what you said is true, although conversely it's important not to go overboard and pronounce militia units as useless. Saying that militia spearmen would struggle against elite heavy cavalry is true also, but keep in mind that for the price of one unit of elite heavy cavalry you could easily buy three to four units of militia spearmen.

And also in regards to large armies of lesser quality troops I would agree with you again that quality generally beats quantity; I just pointed them out to JusWizWar because he said these armies weren't feasible when they obviously were a viable option.

I just think that 10,000 florins armies are the best option seeing as you are forced to make a choice between a numerically inferior army with high quality troops or a numerically superior army with lesser quality troops. With 12,500 florins and up I feel that suddenly all the players are filling up all 20 unit slots with the best troops, which takes away from the game somewhat in my opinion.

Although keeping what Elmo said in mind, to each his own. :)

[ElmarkOFear]

I like it when the game allows for routing enemy units due to several different types of factors: Being outnumbered, flanking, fire arrows, being shot at, gunpowder, units with Fear ability, etc . . I enjoy making armies which capitalize on one of the above factors in being successful. Surprising the enemy is what is fun about this game, and why I played it for so long. :)

Carl: You would enjoy playing with the NFs since they play mostly for fun. There are a few clans who have members that play for fun as well. If you ever see me Hunter_Elmo online, I will be more than happy to play a fun game with you. I am known as a professional TW noob, so you would have a good chance of winning against me. :)

[pike master]

yu dont fool me elmo. yur a stomper when you want to be.

i personally like no rules games with any florin level and when i host games i will ask the person joining what kind of game they want. i like a good challenge. if they give me a chance i even ask them what kind of army they would like for me to have so they can test a tactic. i dont care. if they got a spam army of elephants. its fun trying to find a way to stop them or fall down laughing on the floor watching em stomp my army.