A start on the .MESH file format

[Bwian]

all 4 lods are using the same model and there is no alpha on the texture at all. I considered those possibilities...but ruled them out since they could not explain why the models at the front display the legs... but the ones further out do not. I have not put the lower detail lods in...so I just copied and renamed lod0 to make lod1, 2 and 3. Lod switch distances were kept as per the stock models.

I also don't know why 1 torso shows up...but the other doesn't! The one that refuses to display is just the same as the one that does, only with a belt and loin cloth added. The rest of the mesh is identical, as is the texture. The 'comments' data in Milkshape is identical apart from one having 'Body_01' and the other having 'Body_02'. I actually copied and pasted the comments data and just changed the 1 to a 2... so I know that data is correct. Also, all the model parts show up correctly in Milkshape. I think it is either messing up when I convert, or it is something wrong with my text editing.... but that is hard to spot.

My modeldb entry was just the highland rabble one with the model and texture entries changed to point at my new mesh and textures. Nothing else was altered, so the changes to the text files are minimal. Both model and textures are now displaying correctly, so I don't think it's that.

Since GOM has a reliable conversion process with the tool, I am becoming convinced it has to be something in the way I have set up the model that is messing up the conversion process. Just can't think what!!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

Thanks for the tips GOM .... let me clarify a little as to what I have/haven't got happening.

1) Weighting.
I am sure the weighting I am seeing is the weighting I put in. I assumed the game model would have to have it in some form, so I assigned all verts to the abs bone. I knew the effect this would have, and I knew it would be easy to spot.

The reason to use those Menu/Vertex commands is to let Milkshape know that this file has to be saved as a multiple weight file even if you only assign 100% to one bone. Your Tab/Joints should look like this:-



If it doesn't, use those menu commands to kick in the weighting.

2) Textures.
I haven't changed the texture normal file ... I think this may eaplain some of what I am getting. I will look at that tonight. The texture I am seeing is definitely not showing correctly..but it is showing something! I tried changing the texture back to a stcok texture, and it was clear that the texture changed. Also...the model isn't see through..as I would expect if it coiuldn't find the texture.

3) I have correct values in the model comments tab ( I think ) but I am not 100% sure. I copied these from a stock model, and made sure I had:

class name ( eg head, arms )
part name ( what I had called the part )
0 ( all the bits I looked at had a 0 there! )

Is this right?

What you are describing is a Group comment from the Group Tab. The Model Tab Comment should look like this:-



This is the bounding sphere from a mounted lancer, if you're working on a foot figure just convert a similar vanilla foot swordsman, whatever and copy the values into your Tab/Model/Comments. As the work by Trotski12 shows playing around with the bounding sphere values does affect visibility.

What baffles me is that the texture is clearly not showing correct UV mapping, or is showing some very odd variation on it! Also, parts of the model keep disappearing! Look at a rank of troops, and the middle ones are OK, but the ones to the side are just floating heads! Torsos keep vanishing.... very odd! I know I am close.... but this is just not 100% and it's maddening to be this close and yet not succeed

Try these out and see what happens. If there's still a problem, you can upload it somewhere and I'll have a look (or just wait for the RTW CAS converter next week and convert the CAS skeleton figures directly to m2tw meshes , I think I've still got them on my hard drive somewhere )

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

I know you were bringing in the skeletons as an exercise in creating a new mesh but I couldn't resist playing with the Cas convert tool. I actually found two zips on my hard drive with Cas skeleton figures and I think they're both yours.











Hope you don't mind.

Edit:- Have been playing a game with skeleton archers taking on Urukhai pikemen and there is a distinct slowdown when using large amounts of skeletons, I used the 'med' Cas figure as the base and that has around 1200 tris, this is about twice the normal m2tw tris count (for what is shown for each figure). The m2tw engine does not cull backfaces so rather than make meshes for the ribs (this takes up about 300 tris) you could use a normal body and map the ribs on the texture with alpha transparency, this would help cut down on tri count.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

I think you're wrong there grumpy, most of the meshs I've got converted look to be 1500-2000 tris per ingame model, 300 tris for most heads alone.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

@Casuir and Bwian

I think you're wrong there grumpy, most of the meshs I've got converted look to be 1500-2000 tris per ingame model, 300 tris for most heads alone.

Yes you're quite right Casuir, I must be coming down with 3d fever or something, I've been working so much with converted cas files I was taking their maximums as m2tw's. I just ran it again with even more units and it ran fine. I must have had something running in the background .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

GOM ... I made a new skeleton model for MTW2, with a few extra tweaks nad a better head model. Those are definitely my old skeletons...and I can see some real benefits to having the RTW CAS-MTW2 MESH converter! I can slap together a CAS file for RTW in a matter of minutes with complete certainty .... but I still want to understand what is happeneing and why things are not working rather than have a tool do it all manually. I may need to do things this way again

I will try the bounding sphere thing. I have not looked at that properly, and need to go back when I have my thinking head on!

Bone weighting is OK. I have deliberately set it how it is, and I know it is working OK... or at least...as I expected it to! I will check you suggestion anyway to make sure I don't introduce a problem when I start proper weighting. I am still new to Milkshape as a 'proper' tool, so tips like this will stop me screwing things up while I go!g up the texture a

Also...the normal map thing sorted out my bad UV textures. The screenshot I posted was after I had fixed it, and the textures are showing correctly. It's just that bits of my skeletons seem to be missing! I'll see if the bounding sphere cure it. Fingers crossed!

Finally....those are most definitely my old skeletons! Nice to see someone downloaded them.... and nice to see them looking pretty in the MTW2 engine. These ones should look even better when done since the feet and hands are more defined, and I re-did the proportions slightly. The necks are too short relative to the shoulder position, and the sternum was very much an afterthought! The new ones have clavicles, better defined radius and ulna on the high detail LOD, and feet that look more like feet. It adds a few polygons...but in proportion to the increase in actual base model polys on the stock figures. I am lightening up the texture as well, to make them more 'desert bleached' and improving the definition on the skull for the MTW2 version. Should look a whole lot better!

[zxiang1983]

Thanks again for your work on experimenting, from your screen pics, it does seem that the 4th values or sphere radius does have an effect on fighting distance. Did you notice that the charge distance, etc for the formation remained the same for both cases?

Hi, GOM.

Due to my observation of the two pics, however I have some different opinions. I think their fighting distance is actually the same. And I noticed that their weapons are the same. I mean though some are longer or shorter, after all they are still pikes. So my guess is the 4th value may have nothing to do with fighting distance? And the one determines how long the weapon is is weapon type. This theory could also explain how those secondry weapons work, IMHO.

I remember something more. Long before mesh convertor came out I tried to dismount a knight templar as a sword&shied unit. So he will swing his lance as if that's a sword. And he is a killing machine in game because his "sword" is much longer than others.

The other thing is an interesting experiment. Two same dismounted feudal knights. Upgrading one's weapon will give him +1 attcak stat only. Upgrading the other one's experience will give him +1 attcak stat and +1 defence stat. So at the first glance we may easily tell who will win in the battle. However, experiments shows that the one with upgraded weapon always win! Do it yourself if you don't believe :D. My guess is that the upgraded weapon model is a little "longer".

Is there anyone who have put a REAL new weapon into the game and what is the result?

[Bwian]

GOM ... still stuck

I checked the bounding sphere, and it was OK ( the same as a stock peasant ). I tried changing it to the values for Highland Rabble ... but that made no difference at all.

IF you want to PM me, I can e-mail you the MS3D file and textures for you to have a look at. I really want to get to the bottom of this! I need to be able to build models with multyiple parts, and the RTW CAS converter won't aloow that... so I have to learn to make things this way to get the effects I need, so I will persevere until I do get it sorted!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

GOM ... still stuck

I checked the bounding sphere, and it was OK ( the same as a stock peasant ). I tried changing it to the values for Highland Rabble ... but that made no difference at all.

IF you want to PM me, I can e-mail you the MS3D file and textures for you to have a look at. I really want to get to the bottom of this! I need to be able to build models with multyiple parts, and the RTW CAS converter won't aloow that... so I have to learn to make things this way to get the effects I need, so I will persevere until I do get it sorted!

PM on its way.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys

Two bits of news, I see from the 1.2 patch thread that the Sprite Generator is now going to be included and Milkshape has released a beta of 1.8.1 and when I get a chance this weekend I'll go through the SDK and also test the converters to make sure the new version doesn't break anything Tried a few conversions and it seemed to be ok.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GubZol]

[Trotski12]

Is there anyone who have put a REAL new weapon into the game and what is the result?

i'm going on

[Bwian]

Flags are flying, cheers are sounding, and the dead are ALIVE ... er..well..actually they're not..they're dead..but they are definitely walking!

After much messing, headscratching, screaming, and asking GOM for help, the first Tomb Kings unit has actually worked.

Don't know exactly what the cure was, but between my adding of a second material for the weapons, re-doing all the weighting ( after GOM spotted the missing bones... ) and going back through the suggested SIMS2 bone fixing, all is well.

All the various unit bits are there. 3 heads, 2 arms, 2 torsos and 2 weapons. All visible, and the bone weighting is looking just as intended. I am a happy modder again!

Next job is to work back through my steps to re-create it with the next set of units...the Tomb King warriors ( these first ones are more 'peasant' level ) and write up every step of the job for the Tutorial section

[Casuir]

Very nice work

[Bwian]

And..of course... no Tomb Kings army is complete without some skeleton archers....



Warriors are in progress too, with quite a few variations on the shield to allow for different bits of decay and decoration. The basic shape is the same, but the alpha texture is being used to show the decay.

[GrumpyOldMan]

@Bwian

It was a difficult birth but worth it

Well done

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Definitely worth it!

I am also glad right now that you added the MS3D merge feature into the tool. I have stripped the weapons off the basic model, and am then merging in attachment sets to create the variations. The archers only took me half an hour to build ( all 4 lods ).

I noticed the problems MS3D has with importing mesh parts ontop of other mesh parts ... the 3D window showed a clear issue with the order of rendering, and I can see that this would have the potrential to really mess stuff up!

The next set of units will be the true warriors. I aim to have a simple spearman unit, with a shield as well as a similar swordsman unit. Then some axe/mace units. I want some of these guys with helmets, and lots of shield variations. The Tomb King deisgns have quite large shields, and variations here will be quite prominent. I plan to have 6 or 7 ( at least ) options here.

There is a BIG question looming now though....

Can we change the position of the bones and have that work in MTW2?

I know in RTW the animations just stored the rotational changes to the bones, and that the actual bone positions were stored in the CAs file. This part of the CAS file, though, was not touched by the editor. There was a link, I recall, between the skeleton.dat file which defined how each skeleton was put together, and this was all a bit of a mess. We could scale...but we could not translate a bone pivot and have the change implement in game. If your tool does/can make this possible, then many doors open. Has anyone tried to move or re-size the bones?

[Ciaran]

The dead look great. The RTW version already was very neat, but the variety M2TW allows makes them all the better. I´m so looking forward to what you´re up with the Orcs...

[Bwian]

To answer my own question..... I took one standard soldier, re-positioned the bones, and gave it a try. The mesh was squashed to match, and the bones were re-sited.

The mesh was displaying correctly, but I don't think the bones follow suit. As soon as the model actually moves, the mesh was stretched and the bones were pivoting in their original locations. Whatever the game was doing with the mesh, it was doing itbased on the original pivot positions and was ignoring the changes I had made. When we get around to re-designing animations for the game, we might be able to do more, but it looks rather as though the MTW2 game engine stores the base positions of the skeleton in the DAT file as before, and applies that to the mesh. A way to make a new skeleton would be required to make things possible that RTW never managed to crack.

[Herkus]

Great work, Bwian with those skeletons, I am really happy that you were able to get that mesh in game. I will soon try something similar once I finish one unit which will have five different parts for each mesh group.

Speaking about your skeletons - with the bloom effect the texture seems to be too white and "shinny", maybe desaturate a bit, otherwise the bones look like tooths from toothpaste commercials. :D
Looks like your mod is going to be a cracker.

[Bwian]

I know what you mean! I lightened them from my original effort, since I wanted them to look 'sunbleached' ... but the difference between the archers in full sunlight, and the troops in the shade ( the swordsmen ) is huge. It's the same texture...but the effect is extreme.

The background weather and atmospheris really make a lot of a difference, and I need to adjust my textures to cope with this. I'm just glad they are working!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

There is a BIG question looming now though....

Can we change the position of the bones and have that work in MTW2?

Short answer is not yet. I'll look at skeletons and animations next.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Cheers GOM!

No pressure, since what you have achieved so far has really got things moving. God alone knows how much of your time has already gone into getting a working converter, and I really appreciate it

What bugged me greatly about RTW was the fact that we never actually got to grips with being able to re-site a bone. We could move them in Max, but the game ignored them. Your converter seems to actually transfer the bones as they were in Milkshape... but the animation routines overwrite this.

I don't know exactly how the game does it, but I recall it all boiled down to the ocntents of the DAT file. It defined for each skeleton where the start points were, and the animation was applied as rotations to those positions. Being able to re-write the start positions ( using stock animations or custom ones ) would allow us to make orcs and dwarves with correct proportions.

Hopefully...if I am wrong ... Calban could give us a few clues as to how the whole skeleton / animation thing fits together.

Damn...I wish I could read Hex

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Bored so I tried importing a Valve type smd and exporting it as a m2tw mesh but I don't think anybody will take me seriously:-





Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Grumpy,

You are scaring me....

What is coming of this??? Who's next cookie monster?

[KnightErrant]

I want Smurf Warriors!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE

I want Smurf Warriors!

Just to prove that I'm really a very, very, sick puppy:-





Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@GOM
Thank you! Now the French will tremble
in their boots at the advance of the English
Smurf Warriors! Unless it rains, then we'll
have tea.

KE

PS: Documentation done and posted, ready
for animations.

[Trotski12]

Argh... my milkshape licence prematurely ended, and the technical support don't want to help me...

crap.



cannot pursue testing, sorry guys.

[Bwian]

KE ... please DO NOT ask for Sonic the Hedgehog troops to repel the advance of the feared Smurf Warriors.... it may happen, and I don't think my sanity will hold out!