A start on the .MESH file format

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

There's a slight hold-up with the Cas to M2tw converter, I've been testing it with the cas files from various Mods and it seems that the converter can handle cas files if they are in vanilla format, ie weapons, other bits and then body but seems to lose bits if people have used other methods of cas construction. The files are still valid files for RTW but the converter is having some problems with them. I'm looking through the Cas files at the moment but I haven't found the flag that I need to let my program know that there's more to come. I may have to go back and rejig it completely to catch these files.

Edit:- The converter is converting the majority of files, including all the vanilla files. Do people want me to release the converter as is?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

I've got a question for 3dsmax guys. Has anyone
tried exporting to the Alias fbx format from Milkshape
and then importing into 3dsmax? I'm curious as to what
information is preserved and what gets lost. Reason being
fbx is an undocumented format but Autodesk pushes it and provides
an SDK for it which I assume Mete used parts of to make his importer
and exporter. I wonder if this might be a good way to transfer data
back and forth to Milkshape from 3dsmax. If anyone tries this I would be
interested in the results, please post.

[Herkus]

I've got a question for 3dsmax guys. Has anyone
tried exporting to the Alias fbx format from Milkshape
and then importing into 3dsmax? I'm curious as to what
information is preserved and what gets lost. Reason being
fbx is an undocumented format but Autodesk pushes it and provides
an SDK for it which I assume Mete used parts of to make his importer
and exporter. I wonder if this might be a good way to transfer data
back and forth to Milkshape from 3dsmax. If anyone tries this I would be
interested in the results, please post.

Hi, KnightErrant
I exported fbx format into max about week ago and messed around with it for some time in max. So here are few notes and repeated experiment with screen shots.
The most important stuff which gets preserved are the bones and mesh assignments to them. Though I see severe problems with additional bone objects which are huge in size. That's the problem which I haven't figured out how to overcome yet.

Some visual information while exporting fbx to the Max.
This is the Importer in Max, I didn't edit anything, so just imported with default settings.


While importing I get this warning, which imo is the main cause for problems with bones' appearance.


After importing it looks like this. The mesh coordinates are right into (x=0,y=0,z=0) center of the grid, which is good, because importing different formats like 3ds, you get noticeable aberration. As you see the huge bone objects (actually I don't know who they are, looks like skeleton bounding margins from milkshape which you can see pressing show skeleton. You can hide them, but that also hides the skeleton) have moved to left side from mesh.


I put on wired material on those bone objects and clicked on of them which appeared to be bone_torso. You can see the large size in right side.


Made everything transparent so you can see the skeleton.


And here is a screen from skin modifier with assigned vertices from the body to the abs bone.

[KnightErrant]

@herkus
Many thanks for posting your results. It's encouraging to see
that a lot of the information goes over even with the problems
you're seeing. The .ms3d format doesn't have any bind pose
sections in its specification so I don't see a way of fixing it at
that end. I'm sure people will be interested if you find a way of
resolving it, though.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

@KE and herkus

Thanks for the info and exploration, have you tried exporting (the imported .fbx figure) from Max to ms3d with the plugin available from here http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ?

I've been talking to people on other forums about the difficulties in exporting cas figures from Max to ms3d, and one of the likeliest theories seems to be that the figures are set up with point helpers rather than bones. The fix (set up bones and re-rig the mesh) is probably worse than the problem.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Hooray!

Now I can join the proper testing party. After sorting out some bizarre problems with a corrupt patch, I got my setup clean and ready, and ran through the tutorial steps to make a Highland Noble Arquebusier. Worked first time

I am officially happy.

Next job will be to see how easy it is to rig and set up bones on a mesh in Milkshape....If it's easy enough and similar enough to Max, I will be well on my way to putting a full custom mesh in game... which will make me even gladder.

I can already see that the thing is doing proper weighting, which I would use envelopes for. Never done it in MS3D...so here goes!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

Hooray!

Now I can join the proper testing party. After sorting out some bizarre problems with a corrupt patch, I got my setup clean and ready, and ran through the tutorial steps to make a Highland Noble Arquebusier. Worked first time

I am officially happy.

Next job will be to see how easy it is to rig and set up bones on a mesh in Milkshape....If it's easy enough and similar enough to Max, I will be well on my way to putting a full custom mesh in game... which will make me even gladder.

I can already see that the thing is doing proper weighting, which I would use envelopes for. Never done it in MS3D...so here goes!

Well done!!

Have a look at http://www.chumba.ch/chumbalum-soft/...84&postcount=1 which is a very basic tutorial on the vertex weighting in Milkshape. To assign vertices in Milkshape, first select the bone you want to assign vertices, select the vertices and hit the Assign button in the Joints Tab. This sets up the primary vertex assignment. If the Vertex weights areas in the Joints Tab are greyed and unusable, go to Menu/Vertex/Sims2 Unimesh Show Bone Assignment 2 (or 3 or 4) and this kicks in the weighted vertices.

Let us know how you go.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Taliferno]

Unfortunately http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ? plugins dont work for me,
and I get a message saying ms3d.dle>is not made for this version of the program-not loading.

Is it because I have the most recent version of 3DS max, or is there another problem?

[Herkus]

Thanks for the info and exploration, have you tried exporting (the imported .fbx figure) from Max to ms3d with the plugin available from here http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ?

I've been talking to people on other forums about the difficulties in exporting cas figures from Max to ms3d, and one of the likeliest theories seems to be that the figures are set up with point helpers rather than bones. The fix (set up bones and re-rig the mesh) is probably worse than the problem.

Hi
@GrumpyOldMan
I just ran some tests with that plugin, so here are some notes:

Here is the screen of unit's mesh and joints after exporting ms3d format from Max with that plugin.

All assignments(mesh to the bones) are still in place, though as you see the joints(blue wired shapes) are way bigger than in fresh ms3d file just converted with your tool. Here is a fresh example, the difference is noticeable:


Apparently the mesh model has dwindled in size when exporting from Max with that plugin.

Decided to try to export fbx format from Max back into Milkshape so here are the results:

While exporting Max threw me warning again about the "bind pose" and not being able to export it, so he(Max) offered me kinda solution with making something like duplicate bones and meshes(which will appear in the real size) with text line "model::" in front. And I had two choices "continue" or "abort".
As you see in the screenshot - there are now two models(both have their own joints) - the big one is in the real size and has groups and joints with text line "model::" in front. All mesh assignments to the bones are still in place for both models.

One side note: exporting fbx format to Max - destroys all texture map layout for the meshes, so you have to remap again.

[Bwian]

GOM ... that looks simple enough. I will copy the standard weighting as closely as possible, and try to assign similar weights to vertices in a similar spot. If I hit trouble with that, then I will resort to RTW type simple absolute vertex assignments.

First job, though, is to modify my exisiting 'first attempt' model so it has the required selection of heads etc. I also need to understand how the hierarchy of the model needs to work for the head models ( assuming it has some! ). It looks from the display in MS3D that there may not be anything so complex to worry about, and that it might just be the naming convention that tells the game what is what, with the skeleton making the bits go where they need to be. Hope so!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

GOM ... that looks simple enough. I will copy the standard weighting as closely as possible, and try to assign similar weights to vertices in a similar spot. If I hit trouble with that, then I will resort to RTW type simple absolute vertex assignments.

First job, though, is to modify my exisiting 'first attempt' model so it has the required selection of heads etc. I also need to understand how the hierarchy of the model needs to work for the head models ( assuming it has some! ). It looks from the display in MS3D that there may not be anything so complex to worry about, and that it might just be the naming convention that tells the game what is what, with the skeleton making the bits go where they need to be. Hope so!

Have a read of the doc that came with the coverters, it talks about the significant entries in the Milkshape comments fields of groups and model.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Herkus

Hi
@GrumpyOldMan
I just ran some tests with that plugin, so here are some notes:

Here is the screen of unit's mesh and joints after exporting ms3d format from Max with that plugin.

All assignments(mesh to the bones) are still in place, though as you see the joints(blue wired shapes) are way bigger than in fresh ms3d file just converted with your tool. Here is a fresh example, the difference is noticeable:


Apparently the mesh model has dwindled in size when exporting from Max with that plugin.

Decided to try to export fbx format from Max back into Milkshape so here are the results:

While exporting Max threw me warning again about the "bind pose" and not being able to export it, so he(Max) offered me kinda solution with making something like duplicate bones and meshes(which will appear in the real size) with text line "model::" in front. And I had two choices "continue" or "abort".
As you see in the screenshot - there are now two models(both have their own joints) - the big one is in the real size and has groups and joints with text line "model::" in front. All mesh assignments to the bones are still in place for both models.

One side note: exporting fbx format to Max - destroys all texture map layout for the meshes, so you have to remap again.

All very confusing, if you export to fbx from Milkshape and then import fbx, you get the bones with the model:: prefix, etc but no changes in size. To check on the size of an imported model in Milkshape go to Menu/Tools/Show Model Statistics - for a normal m2tw figure the Min y should be around -1 and the Max y should be around +1, this is independent of the size of the bone joints. Did you check on the size of the bone joints in Milkshape Menu/File/Preferences after import, it should be around 0.025 to work with m2tw figures.

The texture coordinates are preserved in the Milkshape export then import fbx.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Taliferno

Unfortunately http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ? plugins dont work for me,
and I get a message saying ms3d.dle>is not made for this version of the program-not loading.

Is it because I have the most recent version of 3DS max, or is there another problem?

I don't really have much knowledge of Max, but the plugin shows up in www.maxplugins.de/ database for Max9 32 and 64 bit versions. Maybe a trawl through some Max forums can come up with some answers.

edit :- I found an email contact for the writer of the plugin mailto:mcg01001@student.mdh.se

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Taliferno]

Thanks Grumpy, I downloaded the plugin from www.maxplugins.de/ and it works fine-must have been a problem with the one on his home page.

[Herkus]

Hi Herkus
All very confusing, if you export to fbx from Milkshape and then import fbx, you get the bones with the model:: prefix, etc but no changes in size.

Yes.
Ah, the thing about that smaller model was kinda silly. I forgot that importing stuff doesn't delete previous scene but merges together my bad. That small guy was ms3d model from Max export ms3d plugin.

To check on the size of an imported model in Milkshape go to Menu/Tools/Show Model Statistics - for a normal m2tw figure the Min y should be around -1 and the Max y should be around +1, this is independent of the size of the bone joints.

After checking that here are the results in milkshape:
Using export ms3d plugin in Max - cuts the size of model three times.
Using export fbx in Max - doesn't change the size.

Did you check on the size of the bone joints in Milkshape Menu/File/Preferences after import, it should be around 0.025 to work with m2tw figures.

Hmm, size of bone joints was set to value "1". I thought that's the default version so I didn't change that value.
I changed as you advised to 0.025 and it looks as it should, I suppose. Thanks. Probably milkshape preferences were discussed before in this thread which I missed.

The texture coordinates are preserved in the Milkshape export then import fbx.

Well texture coordinates were already lost in Max after importing fbx format from milkshape.


*Also the mesh group comments are lost after this exporting/importing in milkshape.

[AlphaDelta1]

16:08.718 [data.invalid] [error] DATABASE_TABLE error found : max records exceeded from file Broken_Crescent/data/export_descr_unit.txt.

I got this error after adding my 100th new unit. It's interesting that the error has come from the export_descr_unit file. I always thought the limit would come from the battle_models.modelsdb file.

It's not a massive problem as you can simply delete out units you dont want.

Cheers

[KnightErrant]

Was your unit count 500? I thought this was the EDU limit from RTW so maybe
it's the same here.

[AlphaDelta1]

I just put the file through vim, and yes the limit is 500. That's a bit of a shame really.

Cheers

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1

I just put the file through vim, and yes the limit is 500. That's a bit of a shame really.

Cheers

Is the EDU one of the files that can be moved to Mod folders under 1.2?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I've put the alpha RTW cas to Milkshape converter out to test with a few people. Unless anything major turns up, I'll release it shortly.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Lusted]

Is the EDU one of the files that can be moved to Mod folders under 1.2?

It could before 1.2, i've had the edu in a mod folder since 1.0.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Lusted

It could before 1.2, i've had the edu in a mod folder since 1.0.

Thanks for the info

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

After I sent off the alpha RTW cas to m2tw milkshape converter to be played with, I got a bit bored and seeing I had about 100 converted CAS files I thought I might as well get them into M2TW and see how they look. The results are below:-









I think the Hoplites are vanilla RTW, the Indian Golden sword is from Blue Lotus and the UrukHai Pikeman is from one of the Middle Earth mods. All these cas files are starting to merge together for me now

There seems to be one issue with the weapon textures on one figure, I was trying to use the same texture for both figure and attachments, but the weapon texture looked a bit strange. I'll check my text entries and also try moving a copy of the texture to the attachmentsets folder.

Edit:- Checked my text entries and I forgot to put the '0' at the end of the attachment normal texture , so yes you can use the same texture for both. Incidentally has anybody come up with the modeldb animation entries for foot spear_primary and sword_secondary.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Herkus]

Hi, great work GOM.
Hoplites have longer spears than M2:tw vanilla spearmen, does spear length make any difference in melee?

[SigniferOne]

To piggyback on the previous post, it seems that the bounding sphere affects from how far away the soldier can cause damage, is that right? Have you tested this with long spear units, and do they have second and third rows pitching in on the fight. Also, how does this affect soldiers with a spear and a sword, since from what I understand only one bounding sphere is provided for each soldier.

What modeldb entries do you mean? To give the hoplites a different animation?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys

Hi, great work GOM.
Hoplites have longer spears than M2:tw vanilla spearmen, does spear length make any difference in melee?

I've just tried it with vanilla bounding sphere lengths for a spear, I'll leave the testing for intrepid test pilots

To piggyback on the previous post, it seems that the bounding sphere affects from how far away the soldier can cause damage, is that right? Have you tested this with long spear units, and do they have second and third rows pitching in on the fight. Also, how does this affect soldiers with a spear and a sword, since from what I understand only one bounding sphere is provided for each soldier.

What modeldb entries do you mean? To give the hoplites a different animation?

Yes the bounding sphere dictates how far away the weapon is effective, from the battle I fought with these models (in 1.1 vanilla) it seemed that the AI could get all ranks of the spears involved. This is just a guess but maybe if the enemy soldier is within the bounding sphere then the model switches to secondary weapon - just from observation.

The modeldb entries are to give the hoplites the secondary sword, in the system log it shows that it can't find the animation for it. I've tried a few alternatives from the animation folder but all I get is the Eternal Black Screen of the Infinite Loop . I couldn't find a vanilla spearman with secondary sword to copy from.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

Swiss pikemen seem to have one, havent got the game unpacked so cant tell you the entry, sorry.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir

Swiss pikemen seem to have one, havent got the game unpacked so cant tell you the entry, sorry.

Yes there are lots of pikemen that have secondary swords but I haven't found any spearmen yet, being usually lazy I like to copy where I can. So I was looking for a sword and shield armed figure, maybe I'll try copying from the dismounted feudal knight again, maybe it was my pudgy fingers that brought on the EBSIL (Eternal Black Screen of the Infinite Loop ).

Edit:- I went right through the modeldb file and there are NO spear and sword armed foot figures. Below is the code I've been putting in:-

4 None
10 MTW2_Spear 0
19 MTW2_Swordsman 2
18 MTW2_Spear_primary
14 fs_test_shield 2
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary
14 fs_test_shield

Any clues on what I'm doing wrong? If I leave out the secondary sword, I don't get the EBSIL but there is an error message in the system log that it can't find the secondary weapon animations and the figures go back to idle poses if any enemy gets within the bounding sphere.

Edit2:- I found that if I replaced MTW2_Swordsman with MRW2_Slow_Swordsman it now works, you must be only able to use MTW2_Swordsman with primary weapons ?? Also there's no skeleton for it in the animations folder. An important point to note is that once enemies get within the bounding sphere, figures turn to secondary weapons, so many spear fights rapidly turn into sword fights - this is probably why there are no vanilla foot spear and sword armed figures. Possibly decreasing the bounding sphere radius will allow hoplites and such to retain their spears longer

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

Hi GrumpyOldMan,

The count on your
19 MTW2_Swordsman
entry is off. Try 14.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

Hi GrumpyOldMan,

The count on your
19 MTW2_Swordsman
entry is off. Try 14.

Curses, I hate simple solutions , did work but there is still the problem of secondary weapons taking over. At the first part of a melee, all the spears for a regiment are exchanged for swords (even the rear ranks), gradually they return as the melee develops but this is probably why there are no vanilla spear and sword foot troops. Maybe Caliban or somebody else at CA can provide further guidance or information, any fixes for something similar to this mentioned in 1.2?



edit Did try it against spear armed opponents but it was the same.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan