Stength of units in MTR

[AnthoniusII]

The idea for this discation came when i played M2TW with several factions.I notised that when i attacked against artilery crews (balista,catapelt etc) even whith heavy cavalry somehow i safaired many casualties.The real nature of these crews was from pessantry and such a straingth was unnatural.I hope that in the mod such unnatural behaveure will not exist. Pessants should run away when attaced by heavily units,pessant archer shoud safair heavy losses against much more experianced units too.There should be a discution obout what a unit can do against who and what can not do in the battlefield.

[Vazul's Ghost]

I second that, many times when I have failed to break the enemy's first line of troops in a siege with my initial infantry, I simpley rallied my siege crews into one force, overwhelmed the remaining defenders in melee combat and took the settlement, which is ludicrouse. Ontop of that, many times ive seen single squads of paesants kill an enemy 6 or 7 star commander and his entire bodygaurd, late period bodygaurd included. This just brings us back to the issue of the weakness of knights, which i am sure i have seen in a previous thread somewhere...

[AnthoniusII]

You are right..There must be a clear separetion in what units can or can not do...For examble even spearmen can defeat archers not only swordmen.In the start of the mod there must be a balance between eastern and western type of units.In reality Roman(byzantine)cavalry had much heavier armors but less efective lances.The cause was that roman since the wars with sassanids provided their cavalry with baboo lances to be lighter to carry.On the other hand they equiped themselfs with much more effective bows addapting the steppe type one.Western knights started to use chain mails with plate parts after 1200.Modelers and programers of a total realism mod must make a list of weapon and armor efectivenees of each era.and I think that we (the others) must provide them whith any kind of help we can...

[AnthoniusII]

GENERAL IDEA!!!! If we have to compare armors and weapons of medeival age we must create a list begining from the last medeival era.For example if we accept that the ultimate weapons and armors are the chivalric ones we must give them the greatest rank...let's say 20 points for lances and 17 points for armors.The diference of those 3 points is the ability of a weapon to penetrate an armor..Of cource the where many more weapons like swords,bows etc.Now we put the highest level of weapons and armors of the game we must return to the starting point ex.1071ad...Curent status of weapons and armors acording to historical data.For many years even centuries people beleived that in the east wasn't any heavy armor tradition. That's was untrue...Having a heavy armor tradition of ahaimenidic heavy cavalry 600-300bc and hellenistic one 300-100bc,nations of the east continued to develop heavy armors for nobility and profetional units (parthians,sasanids etc).In time of the first crusade western units even the knights equipted whith lighter armors than the arabs.A point of superiority of the western knights was the lances they had...In the east cavalrymen having allready the wheight of the armor prefered lighter lances made for example from baboo!Byzantine historians mention that against heavy armored troops byzantine,arabic and others aimed to the oponet's head because lances often fail to penetrate the 3 levels of armor.It was common for crusaders to equipt themselvs whith byzantine or arabic style armors to encrease the survival chances of their own.In the start another point of eastern superiority was the steppen bow used by all nations of the region.Only the english longbow has a biger range and power of the steppe bow but the last one can be used by also cavalry and infanty!In byzantine army steppe bow was used only by professional units and not by thematic(militia)ones... TO BE CONTINUED

[AnthoniusII]

How about an examble list?
[Knights:armor 10,shield 2,total 12
weapon lance 15,sword 10]
[Klivanophoroi:armor 13,shield 1,total 14
weapon lance 13,mace 10
Kavalarioi:armor 7,shield 1,total 8
weapon steppe bow 11,sword 10]
What I'm trying to say with this example is that knights are a formidable type of unit is very vanurable to eastern type of bows atleast at the first era.Combosite bows where afective even at the high era against heavy chain and partial plates.An other examble might be the bows..
[Short bow:range 4,power 4,rate of fire 4
steppe bow:range5,power 11,rate of fire 4
crossbow:range 3,power 14,rate of fire 5
longbow:range 6,power 14,rate of fire 4]
What is your opinion of these? TO BE CONTINUED [/LIST]

[Vazul's Ghost]

lookin god, although i don't quite have the level of historical knowledge in that field to confirm you're accuracy . Sorry i havent replied in a while, been busy.
OK, how about other armours, i always found that the damage of gunpowder units was not accurate against light mailed units, e.g. splatter damage. Speaking of gunpowder... how do aquebusiers/hand guns and other forms of firearm fit into this list??

[AnthoniusII]

Gunpowder weapons existed in two separate types.Canons for example where used even at the late 13th centhury but the only use they had was against walls and cavalry as well.Walls where a target who couldn't move but cavalry was another isue.Horses from midlle east to western europe didn't have the expiriance of the sound,smell and ofcource the fire canons prodused.Fear was the greatest afect canons use to create.Hand guns had a simulare use like crossbow...They where easy to use and easy to train to.Just like british lords create huge militia units equipted with bows and just like south europeans formed ellite crossbow units,north europeans equipted their nobility at first and their peasantry later with hand guns.The first generation of these weapons had the same use with canons aiming not the opponets but their moral.They had no accurasy at all,sorter range even crossbows but they had a great penetration power against partial or full plate armors.Those weapons forced armies of this period to reequipt whith cotton and leather type armors becaouse those materials offered better protection against them. A great example are the italian militia forces 1400-1560ad.For the second generation of gunpownder hand guns we'll talk in the future... TO BE CONTINUED

[buujin]

its important to learn how the combat mechanics in M2TW work
before u attempt to rebalance the units. there are many hidden factors which effect a units effectiveness in combat not just its core statistics

[D. Afonso Henriques]

Anyone who played RTR will agree with me on this. A big diference that I noticed in RTR was that the cavalery charges were very powerfull, some even had 50! This was great because it dellivered very mutch realism to the cavalery charge.
It has oftenly apend to me having the heavy cavalery charge and only kill 5 enemies, in reality the heavy cavalery charge was deadly. I soppuse they are going to work on this to right?