V1.21 Rebuild-ProblemFixer BETA testing thread

[vonsch]

Byz gets a lot of guaranteed enemies though, so it probably needs that. And Constantinople is on a lot of victory condition lists. If it's an easy faction to play as a result, no biggie. Nice to have a range. What's not good is if it either always gets taken out by AI factions or always rolls over everyone. I have seen more of the former. Never seen it become a big threat except under player control. I think your changes have helped it be more viable.

As to the Danes, yeah, I forgot they have those from the start. That's probably part of why they do so well now. Maybe you should actually tone down their money script a little! They seem to get the low countries and become a juggernaut. I see a lot of stacks of Danes about already. Fewer Poles and very few HRE.

[Carl]

As to the Danes, yeah, I forgot they have those from the start. That's probably part of why they do so well now. Maybe you should actually tone down their money script a little! They seem to get the low countries and become a juggernaut. I see a lot of stacks of Danes about already. Fewer Poles and very few HRE.

Thats weird as in my game they are stalled with only Hamburg in their hands. They have 3-4 full stacks wondering round, but are doing nothing.

Byz gets a lot of guaranteed enemies though, so it probably needs that. And Constantinople is on a lot of victory condition lists. If it's an easy faction to play as a result, no biggie. Nice to have a range. What's not good is if it either always gets taken out by AI factions or always rolls over everyone. I have seen more of the former. Never seen it become a big threat except under player control. I think your changes have helped it be more viable.

The problem is the AI seems to limit itself to so many units per province or so much upkeeps wort of units per province so that helps hold them back. but as a player I could afford to build and maintain 2-3 full stacks of very high quality castle units early on. Using auto-resolve I could probably blitz my way through most of Italy within 10 turns of that and then do the same to Iberia and Britain. I've also got enough money that all my allies are getting 1K a turn off me and i'm STILL making nearly 10K free at turn 30 odd. My allies are:

Russia, Egypt, Hungary, Poland, HRE, France, and Turks. All are Bribed to perfect rep before turn 30 and I had Very Reliable rep, that means if i'm careful about where and when I expand I can probably ensure they NEVER attack me.

Thats the real issue, with so much money and with trusted alliances in the game it's fairly likely that a player could avoid any conflicts he doesn't want, and finish any he does within a matter of a few turns.

[vonsch]

I've never played Byz. Do their cities start developed? If so, that's a money sink that's missing. Take away most of the trade buildings if they start with them. Or give the player a negative balance to start.

Russia's economy is very tight at first. Really can't build more than a build a turn anywhere, at most, at the start. But conquest helps expand the tax base and garrison units are upkeep free in cities (and don't need much early, as distance is your best defense, but that's where kazaks are important too). So I think the 0 starting cash is okay. Just don't want to see growth of cities bog down without a governor. It's okay if growth is SLOW without one. But should always be positive a hair (0.5%), even with high taxes. But it may be there now. What I wasn't considering is how slow I'm building trade buildings. Can't afford to build them faster.

Oh, and Russian generals are not a chivalrous bunch on the whole.

Heh, council keeps wanting me to reinforce regions. No thanks.

Personally, I like the economic dilemma though. Deciding what to build where is not a casual thing for Russia. Putting a grain exchange in Helsinki versus Vilnius can make significant difference in immediate income. The latter has more land borders and thus more trade to boost. And building ports waits until there are more friendly ports to trade with. Trade with cities without ports is pretty low. And need to get those trading rights going too.

But building farms to the max they can support is first priority. That means both growth boost and income... and the income boost compounds. Though, that first trade building does help growth too...

For reference, at turn 20 I'm running 5000 in upkeep and salaries. My total income is 9000. That's 4000 net. Still building mostly 600-800 cost buildings though. But they take 2 turns or less to complete and I have 6 regions. Novgorad is in the 1600-2400 series now mostly. And to expand, I need units, which means more upkeep. And I need priests. And another spy and dip would be good too. Merchants will break the logjam though, as soon as these grain exchanges come online. Until then it's avoid wars!

Heh, Kiev has a large (in numbers, at least) garrison. But it's a wooden wall. So gonna try to tempt them into sallying right away, and whittle them down with my Tzar if he doesn't die of old age on me. If it's mostly archers, should have a chance with Kazaks and him to make a significant dent. Then I can storm in a couple of turns. That's my plan...

I have a merchant there and no seeing any Poles so far. But am still about 3 turns out.

Heh, "tell me, do you always disappoint the ladies?" Getting a bit personal there! That was the Milanese princess.

[Carl]

I've never played Byz. Do their cities start developed? If so, that's a money sink that's missing. Take away most of the trade buildings if they start with them. Or give the player a negative balance to start.

Not really, only Constantinople has a port or market, ad only the first levels, the real issue is that even at ow level taxes they make enough from all their provinces early on to afford to build port in all their coastal territories that have them. With 4 Silk, 3 Marble, 1 Sulfur, 2 timber, and 1 Dye and 1 Wine to trade right of the bat and 4 port they can go from a decent Tax income to massive trade income inside the first 5 turns. Eventually Egypt will eclipse them on trade but they have it good to start with. And if you convert Smyrna, and Nicosia to towns and force grow them on low taxes you get another Marble and 2 more ports, and most of these ports can trade with each other if needs be. In addition, farms can double their basic farming income too, and with a decent number of provinces under their control it's not a low-level of income either. Give me 10 mins and I'll re-start a campaign and tell you exactly what the income/outgoings are at turn 1.

Personally, I like the economic dilemma though.

Agreed, it adds a lot of challenge, Byzantine is already boring me by turn 40 because I can build whatever I want and it doesn't matter.

[vonsch]

I've been playing at my Celt campaign in RTW/BI a little off and ofn and one of the things that makes it so different is the economic puzzle. It's really hard to stay out of the red until you learn the importance of running lean and being vicious about destroying buildings in captured cities. There I exterminate population (since I am not a horde and can't sack) and then retrain what units I can, then the next turn I destroy everything I can (except maybe advanced ports that I can't build) and move out and let the rebels have it. That's allowed me to fund development of the Isles and build up a decent treasury to actually start conquest in Iberia soon. I even had the forces to take on the Romano-British emergence head-to-head. But I'll do the same thing in Iberia for a few decades the beat the populations way down to prevent early unrest. And to clear out cultural penalties from too many advanced Roman-style buildings.

Once I start rolling in conquest in M2TW I tend to destroy buildings some too. Not trade buildings though. Mostly it happens when I convert captured castles. I destroy all the military stuff first (still not sure if those are automatically 'salvaged' when converting... another thing that needs testing). But I also will take out some I just don't use. And a lot of thieves guilds.

I think removing unrest as a real penalty has hurt the late game of M2TW. Having cities on the edge of, or in, rebellion gives the player more to worry about when expanding fast. And distance plays a larger role then. I haven't found much issue in running very large cities... except very early when there are major religious conflicts and my budget is tight.

If it's something you can control, a higher unrest threshhold in all cities and castles would not be a bad thing. But keep in mind it interacts with the tax penalties, and don't go wild. Another way to do something similar would be boosting the distance penalty a bit, if that's moddable. But that hurts the N Europeans disproportionately due to crusades and Holy Land victory conditions.

[Carl]

Got those Figures. Heres the Financial Summary for turn 1:



Constantinople 1958 Normal Taxes
Nicaea 1311 High Taxes
Corinth (Castle) 1036
Thessalonica 1450 High taxes
Nicosia (Castle) 824

With Ports added to Nicaea, Corinth, and Thessalonica No Trade rights. Took 2 Turns from game start as I used Add Money command. I had 17K in the bank at this point.

Constantinople 2105 Normal Taxes
Nicaea 1742 High Taxes
Corinth (Castle) 1127
Thessalonica 1892 High taxes
Nicosia (Castle) 864

And the Financial Summary for then:

I think removing unrest as a real penalty has hurt the late game of M2TW. Having cities on the edge of, or in, rebellion gives the player more to worry about when expanding fast. And distance plays a larger role then. I haven't found much issue in running very large cities... except very early when there are major religious conflicts and my budget is tight.

If it's something you can control, a higher unrest threshold in all cities and castles would not be a bad thing. But keep in mind it interacts with the tax penalties, and don't go wild. Another way to do something similar would be boosting the distance penalty a bit, if that's moddable. But that hurts the N Europeans disproportionately due to crusades and Holy Land victory conditions.

I don't think I can control the rebellion point, but I can make various unrest penalties larger, which should help matters.

Heh, "tell me, do you always disappoint the ladies?" Getting a bit personal there! That was the Milanese princess.

Haven't heard that one before.

[vonsch]

Yeah, that's pretty good income for that early. That's just a rich area, as is Italy. I'm not sure you should do much though. It's okay for it to be an easy faction for the player. The only reason to change it is if you think it's behind the problems with Venice and Sicily. But I doubt that it is. It seems fairly balance with Turkey now. And Hungary is always gonna be a hard faction, since it's surrounded and poor. (Unlike Milan and Venice, which are, or should be, rich!)

One way to increase the difficulty of Byz is to improve Sicily and Venice.

Hmm, I need Halych. The e-w roads run through there along what should be my border. Wonder if Poland will sell it (not that I can afford it at the moment!)

Darn, one move from Kiev the Grand Duke croaked. Gonna have to do it the hard way. Hungary is picking fights. First Byz, now the Turks. Interesting. Only turn 24 too. Must have soaked up the local rebs fast. At least they should be anxious for an alliance... and distracted. My dip is a long way off. These princesses keep waylaying him. Or something. Since they are from far off places, makes sense to catch them all at Hamburg.

Heh, 3 kazaks and a low level general provoked a sally at Kiev. Now to shoot them up a bit. Big stack arrives next turn, though I guess it's possible I won't need them. It gives me 2:3 odds, so if they chase me far enough I could possible get in if the gates are still open. My spy had them open. Lots of militia archers. If I can keep them moving, they can't shoot. And my kazaks can take out the spears if ammo holds.

Heh, gates wouldn't open. The archers all died rather than go through the gate. Hadn't seen that before. My general went from no experience to one gold chevron. Most of my casualties (general down to 7 from 21, and lost about 1 unit of kazaks spread among the three) were the darned towers when they got close enough to activate them from outside. Routing units! Seems wrong. But nothing you can do about that, I suspect. But I can walk in pretty much with the big stack almost there. And it can move on, see if Iasi is still rebel. It's all spear and archer militia and the FL. Only other thing I can make so far is kazaks, which I will now start doing steadily since they will be recruited with max armor (saves on retraining costs).

They keep coming out in bedraggled clumps. If I can rout them all at once... down to 4 in general's unit, got too close chasing routers again. But charges from all sides with kazaks rout them nicely. Even completely exhausted, as they are. Don't think they get any stamina.

That's the first time I've done this as a deliberate ploy. It's very eastern. Sucker them out thinking they have superior force, shoot them to shreads, then starve the remnants, or just ride in, depending on the outcome.

Heh, at that state where they come to the gate, step out, see me a mile off and rout back in. Time ran out. Draw. I killed 322 and captured another 452. With 141 men. Lost 50. Still never been paid a ransom by rebels, and that was 2019 I could use. The garrison is down to 95 MS and 49 MA, and the main force has arrived. Kiev is mine as soon as the rams and ladders are built.

[Carl]

Hungary is picking fights. First Byz, now the Turks. Interesting. Only turn 24 too.

Strange, must be navel somehow as the AI code specificlly prevents AI attacks on each other prior to turn 30. They are simply incapable of launching such attacks. Before I quite my Byzantine game. France did finally take Rennes about Turn 34 with the General's upkeep change.

[vonsch]

Oh, good about France. Did you decrease the upkeep? Or the generals? I guess the generals would reappear pretty fast though.

Hungary starts with landlocked regions, so they must have grabbed Iasi or Bucharest pretty fast, or Sophia. Then build a port, and ships... and blockade. Possible. Haven't seen it before.

Turn 28, 13k at start of turn. Very thin military. I rank 8th overall, I think. 7 regions, doing okay on that one. And as region count goes, the steppes should be mine until the Mongols come. That's 5 more when I get round to it. Darn, Hungarians have Iasi. The Thorn-Halych-Iasi line is nice defensively because the roads run nicely among them. Once the real wars start, those will be my first targets.

But for now, Go east, young man! I just had a son mature, Ivan. He's a natural 5 star general. Gotta get him some dread and see if he can become Ivan the Terrible. He's lazy though. Born night fighter too. I think I'll send him east. The long marches will do him good. Logistics can counter lazy.

It's interesting. Turn 31. Treasury up to 18k. The main reason it's climbing is that I can't build because growth is slow. But a couple of towns will hit city size soon, and it also means I can hire more troops and move east. And maybe talk Hungary into selling me Iasi. I'd love a second castle production center there. Not that 18k is a large treasury, just that it's growing. And I've hired 10 kazaks in that time too.

Oh, it just occurred to me that buth Byz and Russia lack an easy mechanic for gaining piety. No jihad nor crusade. That won't help them with managing growth (mostly a Russian issue though). Not that they were much good at it historically.

Milan just made France a vassal. (turn 37) Russia is ranked 4th overall. Largest in territory. Loads of alliances. Hungary broke off when I tried to buy Iasi, but they came around and are allies again. I haven't tried to buy Iasi again. Probably need more treasury.

[Carl]

Hungary starts with landlocked regions, so they must have grabbed Iasi or Bucharest pretty fast, or Sophia. Then build a port, and ships... and blockade. Possible. Haven't seen it before.

They always get Sofia in my campaigns, even as Byzantine I can't get enough troops together to get it before they do!

Oh, good about France. Did you decrease the upkeep? Or the generals? I guess the generals would reappear pretty fast though.

I cut the Upkeep for the bodyguards to zero. I'm going to do the same to the wage cost of the generals themselves.

Probably need more treasury.

If they're below a certain number of regions they simply won't give one up unless you offer them plenty of money and another region to replace their lost one.



I just tried starting a campaign as Milan with altered Unrest values. Within 5 turns most of France and HRE had gone rebel.

So A) I don't think we can really increase the unrest too much, (despite it feeling quite good as a player), as it hurts the AI too much, and B) i'm now convinced the issue with France/HRE is that they have such high unrest even with default penalties that they can't make any real money and as a result thats whats slowing them down. the effects of the upkeep changes with regards gens only seem to confirm this.

[vonsch]

Do HRE and France have something that boosts their unrest? Or is it regional? Sounds like whatever is boosting it needs to be toned down.

Or give them a perpetual money script. The cash alone can't keep AI factions alive, they need production sites too, so the player can still beat them (and the other AI factions can too, it seems). But maybe you can keep them in the game better, at least. Doesn't mean they will get aggressive enough to do well though.

Hungary always getting Sophia is not a bad thing, I think. It's making them a threat. And it's not crippling Byz that I can see.

Maybe the York garrison should go back to vanilla so England gets it. That might bootstrap England better. Scotland is just doing too well by comparison.

[Carl]

Maybe the York garrison should go back to vanilla so England gets it. That might bootstrap England better. Scotland is just doing too well by comparison.

Bad idea, as if England Gets York it also gets Canveron by default, and even with a heavily reduced Garrison, Dublin takes a bit to fall, it's tough in vanilla anyway and in fact is only a couple of units above vanilla now.

Much better would be to further de-buff the powerful Canveron Garrison.

England's real issue is the way the English Channel splits it's forces in 2. Half of them are across the channel at the start of the game and that really slows England down on the isles. if I moved a Significant chunk of them over into London I think England would do better.

That and Scotland has much higher quality starting forces, as a result it's in a much better position to grab York regardless of the Garrison.

York needs to be made a town, as does Dublin i think.

Hungary always getting Sophia is not a bad thing, I think. It's making them a threat. And it's not crippling Byz that I can see.

I'd agree.

Or give them a perpetual money script. The cash alone can't keep AI factions alive, they need production sites too, so the player can still beat them (and the other AI factions can too, it seems). But maybe you can keep them in the game better, at least. Doesn't mean they will get aggressive enough to do well though.

I'd rather not go the infinite money route, but they are definitely in a much better position IMHO with generals costing nothing in upkeep for their bodyguards or in wages for the guy himself. HRE is doing great in fact. France is a bit more so-so but I think it's getting their, it's just slower than the rest. Portugal even made an attack on Bordeaux that succeeded before turn 20. My guess is the troops per province limit is upkeep based which means that the 900 less upkeep on 2 generals is allowing them to Field a slightly larger force and thats helping them out considerably.

Do HRE and France have something that boosts their unrest? Or is it regional? Sounds like whatever is boosting it needs to be toned down.

It's a case of poor trade (so they don't seem to be wiling to keep as many troops as someone with good trade), lots of regions (so lots of garrisons), and lots of targets they send stacks after. In effect they never have enough troops for all their attacks whilst leaving a good enough Garrison to keep unrest down. Add to that a lack of Pop boom happiness factors and trade happiness factors because of lower trade and poor basic fertility and you have issues.


Just had a random idea. Cutting all Cav from starting forces for all factions would cut upkeep tremendously. that would especially help HRE/France as they have a lot of Cav in their forces, and at nearly double the upkeep of most other foot troops of that time period and a fraction of the strength calculator and Garrison value of said troops it's killing some factions. probs the same for Portugal too thinking about it.

[vonsch]

England's real issue is the way the English Channel splits it's forces in 2. Half of them are across the channel at the start of the game and that really slows England down on the isles. if I moved a Significant chunk of them over into London I think England would do better.

That and Scotland has much higher quality starting forces, as a result it's in a much better position to grab York regardless of the Garrison.

York needs to be made a town, as does Dublin i think.

I agree on the last point, definitely.

And as to the first, well, you see how I play England. So it would help ME about 2 turns, but would probably make the AI a LOT more competitive. It has Caen to build more units with on the continent once it's stabilized on the main Isle, at least... or lost to the Scots. Leave Caen with a basic garrison, Robert and a couple militia and maybe a peasant archer, just enough to hold off a light Frog swarm. It's a castle, it has organic defenses. move the cav and rest to Nottingham. That gives the English the strike force to hit York and compete. If they lose out at York, maybe they can take Caernavon. Debuffing that garrison a bit wouldn't hurt. Leave Dublin at current levels so neither has an easy shot. Scotland has the advantage of a land bridge there, but they seem to often attack that before York (or used to). If Scotland takes Dublin and England York/Caernavon, it should be interesting. Or Scotland Dublin and York. England gets, at a minimum, an income boost from Caen.

And the changes won't make it THAT much easier for the player as England.

Just had a random idea. Cutting all Cav from starting forces for all factions would cut upkeep tremendously. that would especially help HRE/France as they have a lot of Cav in their forces, and at nearly double the upkeep of most other foot troops of that time period and a fraction of the strength calculator and Garrison value of said troops it's killing some factions. probs the same for Portugal too thinking about it.

This worries me with Muslim and HA factions. They already are hurt there with the wall removals. I understand the idea, but if we do that, need to find a way to let the cav dependent (and this includes France) more easily adjust to cav armies when they can afford it. It's a lot less fun for the player to have to wait for the sort of force he's supposed to start with. Like longbows for England, etc. I know not having kazaks easily is affecting my enjoyment of Russian. It was turn 30 before I could sensibly start building them. I had 3-4 to start. Take those away and I may as well play... Denmark.

[Carl]

I agree on the last point, definitely.

And as to the first, well, you see how I play England. So it would help ME about 2 turns, but would probably make the AI a LOT more competitive. It has Caen to build more units with on the continent once it's stabilized on the main Isle, at least... or lost to the Scots. Leave Caen with a basic garrison, Robert and a couple militia and maybe a peasant archer, just enough to hold off a light Frog swarm. It's a castle, it has organic defenses. move the Cav and rest to Nottingham. That gives the English the strike force to hit York and compete. If they lose out at York, maybe they can take Caernavon. Debuffing that garrison a bit wouldn't hurt. Leave Dublin at current levels so neither has an easy shot. Scotland has the advantage of a land bridge there, but they seem to often attack that before York (or used to). If Scotland takes Dublin and England York/Caernavon, it should be interesting. Or Scotland Dublin and York. England gets, at a minimum, an income boost from Caen.

And the changes won't make it THAT much easier for the player as England.

Glad they all sound good to you.

This worries me with Muslim and HA factions. They already are hurt there with the wall removals. I understand the idea, but if we do that, need to find a way to let the Cav dependent (and this includes France) more easily adjust to Cav armies when they can afford it. It's a lot less fun for the player to have to wait for the sort of force he's supposed to start with. Like longbows for England, etc. I know not having kazaks easily is affecting my enjoyment of Russian. It was turn 30 before I could sensibly start building them. I had 3-4 to start. Take those away and I may as well play... Denmark.

TBH I think only Russia has serious issues here, as everyone else can make enough money and has enough starting castles to make fairly large amounts of Cav when they want to (it's also worth bearing in mind that Cav, (and especially HA), are VERY poor on the strength calculator and in Auto-Resolve), so it's probably better if the AI uses as Little as possible most of the time. Don't worry though, I am going to keep an eye on things. I've buffed basic farming rate growth though now, (I found a few castles that wouldn't' grow to Fortress or above size, re-introducing farms might cure this but I think it's still best to buff basics a bit), so you should get more income as Russia as you should be able to either grow faster or tax higher whilst still growing. It will still probably take a few turns to get going, but it Will be better than before.

[vonsch]

At turn 37 I can see Turkey has been beating on Sarkel (north of Tbilisi) and they have another small force there (no way that will succeed). It's good that they are expansionist in this direction too. But gonna have to take it first. My Ivan the Terrible (to be) force is north of there and will come south once it takes Ryazan to seal off the Turks in the south. Then he can swing up to Bulgar and Moscow which he bypassed to the south. The new Grand Duke is stuck at Caffa a couple of more turns, but has a decent militia force there if needed. He's still pacifying and building towers. Once the church and town watch are up he will be able to spring most of his army free. Gotta get a God Squad down there soon. Pagan outpost, prone to heresy to.

Helsinki still waiting to grow to large town size (1724 pop now). Sent a new governor there, but he has one chivalry so far so he's no help. I have to boost taxes to normal to avoid getting him bad traits, which counteracts his one chivalry. But he should pick up another point fast for the lowish taxes. Riga and Vilnius are actually a little ahead of Helsinki, which I start with. Riga is due to having a governor a while with 3 chivalry now. 2.5% growth. Helsinki was running at 2% with low taxes, and 1.5% with this governor (until he sproings the new trait.) Vilnius is running at 2.5% with low taxes. Ah, Helsinki is getting less road trade since it only has one land connection, so no trade icon for 0.5% boost. Riga is lacking that also, but the decent governor is boosting it 1%, which exactly counteracts running it governorless with low taxes. But in the long run a governor pays: more taxes and he gets good traits to lower building costs, increase trade, tax and farm revenue, and his charisma will rise if takes stay normal, which means the growth rate increases. The order bonus helps too.

Heh, one problem Ivan ran into: no infantry for hire in the merc pool out east. Was hoping to hire some ram pushers on the spot. I can starve them out, or use a spy though.

A thought: any way to restrict the biographer to FL and FH? It just wastes a slot on most generals as it boosts authority. Alternatively, make it nudge up something else in addition to authority. Maybe morale in leading troops? Or popularity in governing? The latter is probably more appropriate. Soldiers would probably see it as sissy.

Okay, not that's weird. Miroslav, who just got to Novgorod, picked up the Iron Fisted trait. Taxes are at normal, order is at 205%! If anything you'd think he'd get a negative order trait for running things so loosely. (Not that I'm saying he should, just that it would make more sense... I don't think there should be negative penalties for normal taxation, aside from revenue loss.) So now he's back to dinging growth. I don't know what the trigger for that one is though. It's probably a totally random trigger.

[Carl]

Spotted you teasing people in the patch thread lol~:P.

I'll look up the trigger for that trait as it's an interesting one. As a side note you can pick up strat Chiv at any tax level except very high if you have a green face happiness. On the flip side if your population is blue faced then any tax level except low will give you Strat Dread. Although if you have to set the tax rate to low and the pop is still blue or worse then you won't pick up bad taxman.

[vonsch]

I'm running all green. Gotta pump growth, so everything is set at normal unless there's no governor, then it's set at low. And still running positive cash flow now that my city count is up and I'm running a lean military (while I can!) Hungary is visiting near Kiev with a general and a short stack. I THINK they are heading east, but considering we are allied, and at perfect relations, and they have no military access, I'm a wee bit surprised. Don't think that short stack can take the small Kiev garrison and willing to let them try if they like. I have reinforcements 3 turns away or so in Caffa and Smolensk. And if they want to start a war, I do want Iasi...

My rep is up to very reliable. Definitely not moving as fast as 1.22. I have 10 alliances at present. It feels much better. Was just too easy before.

Ryazan is about to sortie or surrender. Either way they will fall. That's Ivan and his terrible kazaks. I had a marriage that dropped a new general in Caffa, so the Grand Duke rode east to take Sarkel. The Turks, as predicted, failed. They had a bit more support that may have tried to help too, but no sign of them now. The garrison is more experienced, but has a few less men. Be a challenge for the GD solo, but he can hire a few mercs if he feels the need. He has seven mostly virgin militia units against the garrison's eight with mostly 3 chevrons. And it does have a motte and bailey's defenses. In the open it would be easy, with his heavy cav taking out the archers right away. Tougher inside walls.

Poland is bankrupt. Stettin is still rebel, so gonna see if I can't grab it. Maybe Poland will swap Halych for it. I prefer the shorter line with better communications, though I'm sure Stettin is a better deal economically. No wars with factions for me yet, but they have been doing some fighting. No one eliminated yet.

Oh, Miroslav picked up "noble in rule" next turn, as I expected, so he's back to 1 chivalry. Should be 2 now though... Have to find some rebels for him to beat up on and capture and release a bunch.

Yep, Hungary attacked Kiev. Okay, time to find something to attack Iasi while he's besieging Kiev. Heh, GD hired all the mercs he could and stormed Sarkel so he can head back west. Expensive, but effective. I think I will make all these castles so they have a chance against the Turks and Mongols. They won't grow as towns very fast anyway, and too far to tie up a general. Let's see if they have any growth rate at all. Ugh, 0.5% at Sarkel, and it's below 1400. One grain icon. But the steppes are not known for fertility. May have to pump a high chiv general (somehow) and let him ride the route. We need to be able to disband inits for population . Resettling serfs was something the Russians certainly did. As was giving the retiring vets land. Too bad they took out that mechanic.

Hmm, maybe each castle level should get a nudge in growth rate. Can one be attached to the walls? Or maybe a building, a conscription center? Or have you adjusted to handle this already?

Wow, Kiev is stormed first chance, and they have a 1:3 ration. Must have some good troops in that small stack. May lose it. Or may get lucky and burn the single ram. Ohoh, they have DCKs, general, axmen and spear militia. DCKs are the trouble. And no luck on ram and it's drizzling. Oh, wait, got the ram! After it started ramming. Wood walls let you keep shooting at it, unlike stone walls. Whew.

Byz declared on Hungary. They honored the alliance. We Orthies have to stick together! Not that I can trust those despicable southerners. And they are already at war with the Turks and Venetians. My relations with Hungary are still perfect. Seems odd, but it's really a measure of what they think of me, not what I think of THEM. Apparently they think I am easy . They may besiege it again this turn. I bet the force ratio is still in their favor. But the GD and 2 kazaks and some rent-a-cav are arriving this turn and they have only the general ahorse and no missile troops. They will get plinked to death or into ignomious retreat! And I really don't mind a bit if those expensive merc troops end up dead.

Hmm, I've barely gotten kazaks and I'll be able to build Cossacks soon. I still say Kazaks need to come sooner. Can't you use them as the militia unit for castles instead of the militia archers and spearmen? Somehow? If it means building a more expensive stable earlier, and then skipping a stable tier, that's okay. That would mean allowing building the basic stable at motte & bailey, but nothing at wooden castle. Rest as is, except you could yank the basic barracks and have them be truly a cav/HA culture at the frontier. Leave all the eastern regions castles, except Moscow then. Change Vilnius, Riga and Helsinki to towns. This way western expansion will delay HAs, eastern will see them earlier (which models history and fits the terrain... they NEED mobility in the east... well, everywhere, but more so there.)

Sheesh, it takes decades just to get watchtowers to cover the east! Not to mention dealing with the bandits. Going broke again, even with some expansion. Partly due to retaining castles on the frontiers since I need the walls to help my puny military. Held off several sieges. Took Stettin and promptly had a full stack of rebel militia class besiege it. Heroic victory. Motte & bailey, my wooden castle was one turn from being done. Then Denmark decides to blockade. I took Iasi from the Hungarians and am waiting for them to sue for peace. I could take Bran too, but I'm pretty extended. Still haven't taken Moscow, but working on that while Ivan is towerbuilding all over the eastern steppes. I can see why some argue to just let the Turks have them!

Is there anything we can touch to change the whole ceasefire request is very demanding thing? Or is this in the code? It's annoying. An example: Hungary attacked me at Kiev. I beat them soundly, then they besieged again. I beat them, then obliterated them halfway to the border. Then I took Iasi. I obliterated an attempt to retake Iasi. I could easily take Bran and Bucharest as all the Hungarian forces are off threatening Byz. But I don't really want to. I can't afford to deal with more border. But so far they haven't sent a dip my way, and ceasefire offers from the player are ALWAYS very demanding. Silly. Ideally the code should look at the strategic situation and a battle history and decide who's "winning." My offer of ceasefire should be at least generous, if not very generous! But that part is beyond reach, I bet. I'd settle for basic ceasefire offers always being balanced.

I think the conversion rate for heretics is still too high. I don't mean the spawn rates, that's okay. I mean the rate they change good believers into heretics. They seem to be about 3x as powerful as regular priests for every point of piety, and they also move faster. I had one leading 3 of my priests on a 5 turn chase, and now the involved regions all have 20+% heresy, despite the three priests having more piety among them. Let's see, right now it's 31, 25, and 41 a turn after his bonfire. And all those provinces have tier 2 churches too. The priests were at 5, 4 and 1 piety. He was a 5 piety heretic. That's more than 3x as powerful. More like 5x.

It will take at least 10 years to clean this up, probably 20. And more will spawn in the meanwhile since the levels are high.

[Carl]

Is there anything we can touch to change the whole ceasefire request is very demanding thing? Or is this in the code? It's annoying. An example: Hungary attacked me at Kiev. I beat them soundly, then they besieged again. I beat them, then obliterated them halfway to the border. Then I took Iasi. I obliterated an attempt to retake Iasi. I could easily take Bran and Bucharest as all the Hungarian forces are off threatening Byz. But I don't really want to. I can't afford to deal with more border. But so far they haven't sent a dip my way, and ceasefire offers from the player are ALWAYS very demanding. Silly. Ideally the code should look at the strategic situation and a battle history and decide who's "winning." My offer of ceasefire should be at least generous, if not very generous! But that part is beyond reach, I bet. I'd settle for basic ceasefire offers always being balanced.

I've asked about it but haven't got any replies back yet. As an idea, get an alliance with as many of Hungary's enemies as you can, it considers the power of all your alliances bordering it in the ceasefire accept thing. So if you and Byz are allied it would make you appear much stronger.

I think the conversion rate for heretics is still too high. I don't mean the spawn rates, that's Okay. I mean the rate they change good believers into heretics. They seem to be about 3x as powerful as regular priests for every point of piety, and they also move faster. I had one leading 3 of my priests on a 5 turn chase, and now the involved regions all have 20+% heresy, despite the three priests having more piety among them. Let's see, right now it's 31, 25, and 41 a turn after his bonfire. And all those provinces have tier 2 churches too. The priests were at 5, 4 and 1 piety. He was a 5 piety heretic. That's more than 3x as powerful. More like 5x.

I'll tweak it and lower Heretic speed too.


Playing as england ATM, turn 48 and diplomacy is all over the place. got Canveron, but Scots got York. I got Dublin by sea though, and Rennes. France then broke their alliance with me, (also got Hungary, Poland, HRE, Turks, Russia, and Papal States as allies), was a double marriage alliance too. got a man of the hour early on vs. Rebels, is proving very useful. Got ceasefire and re-established my alliance with France. Cost me Rennes to get, then crusaded against excommed Milan, but thats was canceled next turn due to pope death. Still at war though, and grabbed Dijon, gave t to France for military access and got into a war with Portugal by being close enough to help France in a siege. going for Bern right now so I can replenish losses and Scots just hit Nottingham. stopped their as i got a CTD in the Siege at Nottingham.

[vonsch]

So if you and Byz are allied it would make you appear much stronger.

We are.


And on the heresy issue, heresy is also more resistant to conversion than regular infidels. So the problem compounds. I dumped about 10 priests into Helsinki with 39 piety combined. One turn saw 6% convert of the 31% there.

The growth rates of the cities is too slow. I can see it being slower than central Europe (or Western), but it's just too much more so. Helsinki hit 3024 on turn 61. Growth rate is at 3% and it will go to 3.5% with the next tier farm being built now. There's nothing more to build except the brothel which for strategic reasons I can't build there... except in this case I may have to. I can't built my target theologians guild until pop hits 6000, and that will be 30 turns or so more. So it will hit city size around turn 100. Vilnius is the same but a little ahead. Riga is 0.5% better due to the sea trade. Novgorod is growing at 3% with a 3 chivalry governor living there and normal taxes. So at low it would be lower without the governor. It's at 10707 pop. Smolensk is at 5388 and 2%. All not mentioned are running at low taxes. This makes staying alive very hairy, especially with (1) the LONG borders and (2) the huge interior to police and maintain. I still have 3 generals tied up doing bandit hunting and tower building, and the latter will take at least to turn 100. Kiev is at 1.5% growth with a 5 chivalry governor, but is building trade buildings still and tier 3 farms... and it's running at high taxes. Just took Moscow. 3787 pop, 0.5% growth, but it's still building wooden walls, so only has cleared land. I expect that to settle at 2% also at low taxes. It has no sea trade for that line of buildings. Caffa is 3660 and 4% at normal, but it has a 4 chivalry general (and had the GD there for a few turns at about 8-9 chivalry). It's still building tier 2 farms. That's also at normal taxes. Along with the sea trade, it appears to be more fertile. (And I thought it wasn't in the Turk game compared to the other cities south of there.) Oh, just took Stockholm too. It had a palisade still. I;s at 1395 population, and 1.5% growth with no governor. Can't do any building until it hits 2000. That's another 25 turns or so off. I sent a chiv governor to boost that to 3.5%, but he's 46. It MAY hit 2000 before he dies.

Everything else is castle and sort of needs to be for strategic reasons. The three easternmost regions are: Bulgar, Ryasan and Sarkel. All three of those are infertile also, though. They are running at 1%, 1% and 1.5% respectively, the last is the sea trade. Thorn is my main production center and strategic defensively. Stettin is my leading frontier and under siege as I write by Denmark.

Meanwhile I'm seeing DCK-class stuff attacking and I can build fortress-level units (and city level, for that matter) in one region (each). And I'm looking at 20+ turns to expand that. And most walls are wooden, but that's less of an issue since I've held the key defensive cities as castles (not much choice).

This would be fine if the neighbors weren't so far ahead on the curve. A backwards Russia was historical for much of the time. We could retain the backwardness, but Russia needs something to compensate. Traditionally that was bulk of cheap units they could throw away (thus kazaks everywhere). An alternative to that would be to give Russia a (cheap!) building for cities (especially) and maybe castles too that expands the free upkeep by a couple of units. That would help Russia maintain slightly larger garrisons at no cost. This will not help a lot at the frontier, but it will create more of a defense in depth as if a frontier castle falls, the cities behind won't be as vulnerable as most rear cities... in the garrison size sense. They will lack walls to compare though. I'm not sure this would make a significant difference, but it would help.

But the growth adjustments we already discussed may be what's needed.

I can see a stack with 7 DCKs just outside the border at Stettin sitting in a fort. If Denmark had sent that at Stettin, it would be lost. HRE, my ally, is pressuring them, and that's probably what's saving me there. I'm hitting Scandinavia to cut down the Danes a bit. Poland seems neutralized. HRE is doing okay this game, I suspect because my aggressiveness at NW expansion kept Poland from growing easily. Hungary is still doing okay considering I prevented NE expansion there. Interestingly, England has York and Caernavon, and Bruges. Antwerp is still rebel, it appears. Denmark got distracted. The Poles and Danes are allied. Last I heard France was fighting Portugal, probably over Bordeaux. Don't have much knowledge of anything SW of Paris. Milan is at war with Portugal, Sicily and HRE. Yeah, interesting alliance blocs formed.

And Hungary has been throwing DCKs at Iasi too.

My rep, btw, is Immaculate. My relationship with Hungary was perfect when they backstabbed my, but my rep wasn't that high then, and theirs was low. It's gonna be hard to get a solid alliance with anyone as long as their reps are so bad. Only real chance will be with landlocked, "protected" neighbors. If they have borders with other factions, or navies, they are gonna pick silly fights and ruin their reps. But the system is still a lot better than vanilla.

[Carl]

A lot of points.

Meanwhile I'm seeing DCK-class stuff attacking and I can build fortress-level units (and city level, for that matter) in one region (each). And I'm looking at 20+ turns to expand that. And most walls are wooden, but that's less of an issue since I've held the key defensive cities as castles (not much choice).

Bear in mind that Hungary's DCK are the eastern type and are significantly worse stat wise than the western types that France and Co get. (They are actually worse overall than DFK too). They are available at the same time as DFK, (Fortress barracks), I also think the pop is pretty high on Hungary's starting castle which helps explain why you see so many. They get to fortress VERY fast.

On the other hand, i agree that the growth rates are too low.

My rep, btw, is Immaculate. My relationship with Hungary was perfect when they back-stabbed my, but my rep wasn't that high then, and theirs was low. It's gonna be hard to get a solid alliance with anyone as long as their reps are so bad. Only real chance will be with landlocked, "protected" neighbors. If they have borders with other factions, or navies, they are gonna pick silly fights and ruin their reps. But the system is still a lot better than vanilla.

Their rep doesn't matter for trusted alliances. What they do is check if your a trusted ally of them or the target of a potential attack, and if they are they won't attack it, same when it's 2 AI factions. Does matter a bit for AI vs. AI alliances, but I can just buff the artificial Rep boost AI factions get to fix that.

I also slightly upped the requirement on rep for trusted alliances in V1.22. I'll drop it again as it's too high IMHO for V1.23 where good rep is hard to come by.

Turn 52 now as england and have taken Bern and got Stauffuan off Milan for a ceasefire. (Papal_States has Genoa and Venice was too cut off for my liking to demand that). If you want I'll send you the saved game so you can look at it?

[vonsch]

Sounds like you're doing pretty well with England at that stage.

I am #1 overall (despite my complaints!) but feel like its very fragile. The only thing keeping me from being swarmed is the other wars my neighbors are fighting. In that sense alliances are paying off as at least one of those was triggered when I was attacked (Hungary). And I think my relations are improving with my allies as I attack mututal enemies (is that the case?) I saw my relations with HRE increase one turn with no direct assistance via diplomat. That might have been coincidental, though, and driven by a rep-based mechanic.

[Carl]

If your allied with someone their is a steady increase in relation with said ally. it isn't very big, so you still need to bribe to get enough relations for a trusted alliance before turn 30 rolls round, but it is useful for keeping them up.

Sounds like you're doing pretty well with England at that stage.

So-so actually, first because the only non-isles grabs I've made have been Rennes, Dijon, stauffin, and Bern and Rennes and Dijon are in French hands now as part of treaty agreements. Also i'm nearly bankrupt as all the possible trading partners I have, (Denmark and Scotland mainly), are at war with me so my income is really low, i'm fighting for money and Milan has at least 4 full stacks of troops, many with plenty of high quality stuff in them. I only have 2 decent stacks out that way and can't afford more ATM
I've saved the game separate and started a new campaign as Scotland, so i can go back to england at will, but seeing how Scotland pressed me i was interested in seeing what i could do as them.

And I think my relations are improving with my allies as I attack mutual enemies (is that the case?)

Their are no triggers, but i think any time the enemy makes a transgression against you which hits rep you get a rep boost equivalent to their hit. Just a guess though as their no obvious triggers causing it but my rep skyrockets when i get into wars, and am attacked a lot.

[Carl]

Bit of good news. As Scotland i started with the proposed starting changes regards Cav. EVERYONE did MUCH better. France and HRE where still slow, but better by a long way. Hungary went utterly crazy, as did Turks, Egypt. Even Russia did better. Sicily was still passive and HRE/France need a bit more speeding up, but they made a lot more attempts and had a lot more stacks running round.

[vonsch]

That is indeed encouraging.

I haven't played many more turns, but saw the Mongol announcement. And I'm no where near ready to deal with THEM, of course. But no sign of them in the steppes so far. But the warning was last turn, I think.

Still chasing heretics around. I think they teleport .

[vonsch]

Well, Hungary never sued for peace, so now Bran is mine. So I can make almost every castle-based unit there, at least. It's nicely built up. Even had the SM HQ. And Bucharest is next. Then we see if they get smart. Sophia is theirs and a fortress with a big garrison, so they aren't a pushover, but they will be hurting for money soon, I suspect. Budapest is wide open too.

Meanwhile, moving on Oslo on the other end of the world. So far the Danes are frozen in fear of twitching with HRE and me sitting on their border. But Scandinavia was undergarrisoned. Nothing else looks too skimpy though. Taking Oslo should knock them back to 2 regions, I think. Unless they've picked up Antwerp. Still looks rebel to me though (old maps). HRE may prove to be my big threat if the Mongols enter to south. Otherwise... serious problems in the east. No way I will be able to upgrade to fortress there for about 100 turns (need to double pop, and growth is 1%). And that means it's peasant archers and spear militia, with woodsmen support, in castles. Maybe some Boyar Sons if I get time and feel inclined. At least they can do some damage.

But Dismounted Dvor in the west, which would be really nice out there, but takes about 15 turns to get them out there! Spearman would be handy too. And Dismounted Boyar Sons and Druzhina for the walls, though against Mongols Dvor may be better. Anything climbing the walls isn't apt to have a lot of armor, I'd guess.

Oh well, I'm dreaming again...

[Carl]

Just thought I'd update you on my Scots campaign, Russia is currently beating on both Poland and Hungary whilst I try to take on Denmark and Milan who have been going after HRE like crazy.

Not having much success though, just lost one of my 3 main armies to them, took out the first army and should have Had the first reinforcement army cold but for some unfathomable reason my Highland nobles stopped charging at the last minute whilst i wasn't looking and it walked right past them, leaving them left out of the battle and dooming my main forces, losing my general to a mistake didn't help. I killed as many of them as they did of me but still lost my entire force to a chain rout. Trouble was I thought their third reinforcement army was pretty small for some reason and I didn't pay it proper attention, by the time i did half my force was out of position and the other half was mauled and scattered so they defeated me in detail. Had i been able to get my lines formed up and stop the firs reinforcement army as intended I'd have had them probably.

Fortunately the game CTD right after battle end so I'll get another shot when i go back.

Got Burgess and Antwerp, pushed england off the isles and grabbed Caen before giving to the French. Pope is so-so with me. Mongols showed up last turn too. First time I've seen them myself, (I've had the warning before but not the actual invasion). Seem to be missing a stack and both stacks seemed to be under-strength when they arrived. Good otherwise. Near Yerevan.

[vonsch]

Heh, for once a CTD at a convenient time!

Is this 1.23000x you're playing?

[Carl]

Heh, for once a CTD at a convenient time!

Sort of, except it keeps happening on the same turn, even if i go back to an earlier save. So I'd like you to play past the Mongols arriving ASAP as i'm thinking i messed something up in their script and it's that thats causing crashes.

Is this 1.23000x you're playing?

Roughly V1.235 , it's had a few modifications made compared to 1.23 but i'm not yet ready to call it 1.24 and send it out.

[saurial]

Hi Carl,

I've been using the PURE version of PF since I got M2TW and have been extremely pleased with it. I'm excited by the work going on with the Rebuild and I'd like to help out with Beta testing if thats possible.

Thanks,
S

[Carl]

OK, give me a minute and i'll PM you a link to the download.