Northern Crusades?

**OldSchool** · 03-08-2007, 12:37

I've been working on a personal mod for MTW/VI which involves setting up a pagan faction in Lithuania as a last resistance to all those evil Catholics and Orthodox and Muslims. Anyway, I just ran across some references to the Northern Crusades and was quite surprised to find that I had accidently put some historical accuracy into my mod.

Also, in my first test-run, the Germans, having first taken Prussia, are crusading most heinously at me which coincides with what I've read so far. I thought that was pretty cool.

At any rate, I've gotten interested in the actual history of the region and want to add in some more historical flavor. I was wondering if any of you history buffs can point me in the direction of some good online resources. Of course, I'm doing my own research, but if you just know a great site that's off the beaten path or have already researched it, any pointers would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot.
-Oldschool

**Martok** · 03-09-2007, 00:54

Hey OldSchool! Unfortunately, I can't answer your question (as I'm no historian myself), but I would encourage you to post your question in the Main Hall as well. Guys like Adrian II can probably point you in the right direction.

**Lord Cazaric** · 03-09-2007, 00:59

Wikipedia, but no pets are allowed!

I know that may seem totally irrelevant, but on your 76th birthday it will all come clear...

**OldSchool** · 03-09-2007, 12:07

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll try in the main hall and see what kind of discussion I can get going.

Yes, wikipedia is always a nice starting point. In fact, I've found quite a few good sites. I even found a site with Lithuanian music that will work well for the battles. All in all, a fascinating history about the baltic region and Lithuania in particular. I'm going to try my hand at turning the Battle of Grunwald into a custom battle. Should be a lot of fun, and challenging. This account gives a good overview:

http://www.mwart.com/history.asp

Here's a good primer on Baltic history:

The Balts

And here's the music, in case anyone is interested:

Stary Olsa

It looks like the guys making the Fury of the Northmen mod did a ton of research on this area. That looked like it would have been a great mod to play.

**PseRamesses** · 03-09-2007, 13:21

Originally Posted by OldSchool

Yes, wikipedia is always a nice starting point.It looks like the guys making the Fury of the Northmen mod did a ton of research on this area. That looked like it would have been a great mod to play.

Feel free to use any info posted in our FotN-thread. If u´ve any q`s regarding this era/ area just pm me. Beware of any info on Wikipedia, always check the sources and/ or the posters possible motives for making the post there. Back with FotN we ran across alot of nationalist and in some cases fascist posts. Good luck!

**Don Esteban** · 03-09-2007, 13:35

Originally Posted by OldSchool

I've been working on a personal mod for MTW/VI which involves setting up a pagan faction in Lithuania as a last resistance to all those evil Catholics and Orthodox and Muslims. Anyway, I just ran across some references to the Northern Crusades and was quite surprised to find that I had accidently put some historical accuracy into my mod.

Also, in my first test-run, the Germans, having first taken Prussia, are crusading most heinously at me which coincides with what I've read so far. I thought that was pretty cool.

At any rate, I've gotten interested in the actual history of the region and want to add in some more historical flavor. I was wondering if any of you history buffs can point me in the direction of some good online resources. Of course, I'm doing my own research, but if you just know a great site that's off the beaten path or have already researched it, any pointers would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot.
-Oldschool

there is also a book (offline for once) which is entirely about the history of the Northern Crusades, it's very detailed. When I get home i'll find it and post the name.

Now you need to mod the game so that you can have battles on frozen lakes.......

**cegorach** · 03-09-2007, 14:11

[QUOTE=OldSchool]

I'm going to try my hand at turning the Battle of Grunwald into a custom battle. Should be a lot of fun, and challenging. This account gives a good overview:

http://www.mwart.com/history.asp

Only good, actually.

There are better sources, more modern which have some claims removed and some numbers re-researched.

I will address only two things.

1. The Polish knights were hardly any different than the Teutonic counteparts - similar weaponry, same tactics.
Also there was a number of Germans fighting on Polish side and a number of Poles fighting on the Teutonic side - the clash was hardly a battle of different cultures as it is so often described.
Lithuanians were of course a different case - their mostly Rus forces were using equipment preferred in eastern europe so their cavalry was lighter than Polish.

2. Number of Ttars was certainly higher than those 1500 or so, at least 3000 were fighting at Tannenberg, but many were from Lithuanian Grand Duchy, not Crimea.
Moldavians and Czech/Moravians were not too numerous too - about 5 units, maybe more.

Also there is a historical battle made by somew modders ages ago - the armies look quite realisitc and you might want to try it - check the Main Hall for the links.

**OldSchool** · 03-10-2007, 02:48

Originally Posted by PseRamesses

Feel free to use any info posted in our FotN-thread. If u´ve any q`s regarding this era/ area just pm me. Beware of any info on Wikipedia, always check the sources and/ or the posters possible motives for making the post there. Back with FotN we ran across alot of nationalist and in some cases fascist posts. Good luck!

Thanks a lot, PseRamesses. That's very generous of you, considering the amount of work you guys put into that. I'll try to put the info to good use.

Yes, I definitley have my filters on when doing historical research online (or offline, for that matter). My main interest here is to use a general idea of the history to enhance the gameplay, rather than try to force the gameplay to represent anything as elusive as historical "fact". As long as the campaign plays well and gives some realistic representation of the cultures involved, I think I will be happy with it.

Originally Posted by Don Esteban

there is also a book (offline for once) which is entirely about the history of the Northern Crusades, it's very detailed. When I get home i'll find it and post the name.

Now you need to mod the game so that you can have battles on frozen lakes.......

Thanks, Don Esteban, I would be very much interested in reading a more detailed account. The name of the book would be much appreciated.

As for frozen lakes, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.

Originally Posted by cegorach

There are better sources, more modern which have some claims removed and some numbers re-researched.
...
Also there is a historical battle made by somew modders ages ago - the armies look quite realisitc and you might want to try it - check the Main Hall for the links.

Thanks for the details, cegorach. If I decide to recreate the battle, I will definitely consult more sources and try to make it as accurate as possible. Although, if it's already been done, I'll be happy to play their version and concentrate on my campaign mod. Thanks for the heads up.

Strangely enough, in my campaign test, I ended up having to defend against the German crusade with an army of slav warriors with a unit of avars, a unit of lith cav, and my general's unit of Lith Nobles as my only cavalry. It played out eerily like the report in that link. It could have gone either way, but in the end, my reserve unit of woodsmen made a last desperate charge and saved the day. One of the funnest, toughest battles I've fought in TW. When you're reduced to using your general as the anvil and a unit of woodsmen as the hammer against Knights and Foot Orders and survive, that makes for a great victory feast, although it was a decidedly small gathering.

**PseRamesses** · 03-10-2007, 12:14

I can strongly recommend a book called "Deus vult" by the Swedish professor Dick Harrison, 2005, ISBN 91-7037-119-9. It contains an overview of all crusades to the holy land, towards other christians, northern Germany, Baltics and Russia. It focus more on the general concept of crusades and the historical facts revolving around them rather than battles, units tech etc.

**zoyclem** · 03-10-2007, 16:51

Old School,

The following site isn't too bad for quick reference. Your best bet would to search through the sources and then find some of those authors' works at a library. The Internet is great for quick checking but is not always reliable. It's always best to go to a printed source (and usually more than one--historians can be an opinionated lot) because online text is still too easily manipulated by hackers and vandals.

Anyway, here's the site:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

Good luck on your game mod.

Zoy

p.s. If you do a search using 'Pope Celestine III' or 'Northern Crusades' you will find a number of items on this period.

**OldSchool** · 03-10-2007, 22:39

Thanks for the links and books, guys.

PseRamesses, that is one marathon thread y'all put together. I'm about halfway through it. Looks like it's about to become Finnish civil war.

I'm sorry that one didn't turn into a release. I know the feeling. I've got a thread about that long collecting dust somewhere in a NeverWinter Nights forum. May it rest in peace. I blamed its death on NWN2 at the time, but if I was honest it was really fatigue on the part of the crew, and over-ambition on my part. Good thing I'm not honest. Stupid NWN2...