Fixing the AI money script (preliminary tests)

[Thaatu]

Btw, in what order do AI factions use their money? Do they recruit first, then build infrastructure and then use it for diplomacy or is it mixed, or can we even know? I'm just curious.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Btw, in what order do AI factions use their money? Do they recruit first, then build infrastructure and then use it for diplomacy or is it mixed, or can we even know? I'm just curious.

From what I've seen, it seems like AI factions use money for military first. While the AI rebels seem to go for infrastructure first. Just my observation.

[Redmeth]

I've used the new script in my ongoing Sauromatae campaign.
I was at war with the Seleucids for many years but started steadily making progress but the countless battles against small armies of elites were really starting to bore me, because of my HA armies, they seemed eager to attack even with small forces the battles were won easily but they kinds bored me, I didn't have to fight many full-stack armies but the large battles were entertaining.
After using the new script for about 8 turns they seem to train less armies, but I also started to take some of their heartland territories. The game is more fun, 3-4 battles a turn are too much IMO, but I still think more balancing is in order or it might become TOO easy to take down large empires and that would not be a good thing.
A recent map from 3 years ago, I took 3 more provinces from the Seleucids since then, and I'm now nearly engulfing the lone Parthian province :

A historical explanation for the less bonus money received the larger an empire gets would be that generally small nations were more motivated and worked together and sacrificed their well being for the nation and its growth, while the larger an empire got the more the people cared about their own well-being.

[Watchman]

I'd say that was more of a case of in small realms local and larger interests coinciding sort of by default, whereas big empires had endless headache with all kinds of local power brokers, intractable aristocrats, selfish city councils, grabby landowners, governors and commanders with delusions of grandeur, and God knows who else whose local interests rather diverged from those of the distant imperial capital.

[Dayve]

Here is my first screenshot using your script, Sheep. It's only 265bc so i can't really make any commentery as not much has unfolded. I'm playing as Rome, as always. I'll post a new screenshot every 5 game years.

[Sheep]

All right, let me know how the Germans turn out. Looks like they are expanding already.

[Dayve]

260bc. Still little action... Makedonia is dead i think, Greece has big armies and even expanded into Asia Minor... Seleukids have lost a province on the Arabian peninsula obviously due to rebellion, and apart from that everything seems to be at a complete standstill.

Edit, sorry, made a mistake Seleukia has GAINED a province on the Arabian peninsula... I had both screenshots open on screen comparing the two and got it a little mixed up. I think the province rebelled to the Seleukids, although i can't be sure.

[Sheep]

Makedonia is dead i think

They always come back... like cockroaches...

[Blingerman]

A question is errant´s file compatible with the first cohors mod? or should I change the script using the 2nd post manually?

[The Errant]

A question is errant´s file compatible with the first cohors mod? or should I change the script using the 2nd post manually?

My new script is still unreleased. From the looks of it so far it did not have the effects I was hoping for. I'll post screenies soon.
As for compatibility. Does the first cohorts mod change the EBBS script. If it dosen't then no broblem. If it does I need to know which parts are altered. If it's other parts than the one affecting the AI faction cash bonuses I can make a compatible version for you.

[Ravenfeeder]

To get the effect you want (helping factions with low province numbers and slightly nerfing larger ones), wouldn't it be easier to just give a blanket extra 10,000 mnai to all factions (execept Eleutheroi), in addition to the 10,000 they already get from the VH difficulty level?

Those with over 8 provinces would be slightly restricted from their current state, those with over 20 would be very restriceted. Whilst those with 1-3 provinces would be rolling in it and able to hire all the mercenaries they needed to expand.

The Eleutheroi would still need a graduated script to cope with the changing numbers. 2500 mnai per settlement should do.

[Foot]

To get the effect you want (helping factions with low province numbers and slightly nerfing larger ones), wouldn't it be easier to just give a blanket extra 10,000 mnai to all factions (execept Eleutheroi), in addition to the 10,000 they already get from the VH difficulty level?

Those with over 8 provinces would be slightly restricted from their current state, those with over 20 would be very restriceted. Whilst those with 1-3 provinces would be rolling in it and able to hire all the mercenaries they needed to expand.

The Eleutheroi would still need a graduated script to cope with the changing numbers. 2500 mnai per settlement should do.

But then factions with 1-3 will have way too much cash, no one wants that. Most 1-3 province factions were never going to be able to build huge empires, and in game we don't want them to have the chance all the time.

Foot

[Thaatu]

Maybe 5,000 then? It just might work, as it would give no noticable benefits to large factions and huge benefits for one-settlement factions because it doesn't depend on the number of provinces. Even this unofficial version rewards factions who don't need handouts. It's simple but it could be effective.

[kain789]

I personally like the idea of fixing the money script so that we can get a better balance between all the countries and not have a monster Seleukid empire...but I was just looking over the ideas for a city mod which came across as a far better idea for balancing the empires than just a money script fix alone. What if we tied the money bonuses to the size of the city specifically? ie. large towns get more than towns, but less than small cities? This seems closer to reality for balance purposes, because the Seleukids didn't have tons of super-sized towns (it wasn't the ancient world's McDonald's or something...hehe) but rather a few cities with tons of smaller towns. Meanwhile, I would say that even though Ptolemy's kingdom was smaller, the percentage of cities to towns was greater for him than Seleukids. How about merging the two mods into one...in order to solve this quandry?

Brian

[Dayve]

255bc... And still, almost no AI expansion from what i can see... Except for Ptolemoi taken a big chunk of Arabian peninsula, and me taking northern Italy of course.

[Wolfshart]

I personally like the idea of fixing the money script so that we can get a better balance between all the countries and not have a monster Seleukid empire...but I was just looking over the ideas for a city mod which came across as a far better idea for balancing the empires than just a money script fix alone. What if we tied the money bonuses to the size of the city specifically? ie. large towns get more than towns, but less than small cities? This seems closer to reality for balance purposes, because the Seleukids didn't have tons of super-sized towns (it wasn't the ancient world's McDonald's or something...hehe) but rather a few cities with tons of smaller towns. Meanwhile, I would say that even though Ptolemy's kingdom was smaller, the percentage of cities to towns was greater for him than Seleukids. How about merging the two mods into one...in order to solve this quandry?

Brian

I rather like that idea! Wish I knew how to do it.

[Ravenfeeder]

OK. Here's another idea to chuck into the mix.

Give every faction (barring Elutheroi as usual) 1200mnai per settlement * ((100 - no. of settlements)/100)?

Factions with 20 settlements get 240 mnai per turn less, those with 30 360 mnai less and those with only 1, only lose 12 mnai.

This keeps to your original aim, but loses the arbitrary cutoff points you've put in and leaves the larger factions some income to survive with against rapacious players.

[Gaias]

Could you not just porportion the money gained incrementally? Say instead of giving 1200 mnai every settlement/1 turn, why not give them 300 mnai every settlement/20 turns (up to the original 1200 mnai)? This way the larger empires would gain the same amount of money as smaller ones, just not as quickly.

[Sheep]

If you have a suggestion, go ahead and write some code and test it. If it works, post it here so others can test it too.

[MoROmeTe]

Well, I ran the new money script with the BI.exe. Played the Aedui. In 12 years most factions seemed to begin expanding, but what struck me was the fact that the Eleutheroi seem to have to much money on their hands, so they garrrison their places way to much. Even remote places like Gordu-Neurij or Gelonius have garrisons of over 10 units. So I guess this means less money for them...

[Sheep]

Well, I ran the new money script with the BI.exe. Played the Aedui. In 12 years most factions seemed to begin expanding, but what struck me was the fact that the Eleutheroi seem to have to much money on their hands, so they garrrison their places way to much. Even remote places like Gordu-Neurij or Gelonius have garrisons of over 10 units. So I guess this means less money for them...

The modified script is exactly the same for the Eleutheroi.

[The Errant]

I finally got to 200 B.C. so I'm posting the screenies for my game on the testscript.

As you can see there is very little movement until about 230 B.C. which is the magic number. After that things started to heat up pretty fast.
In 238 B.C. the Pontics bought it. And were the first faction to die. The same year the Getai woke from their slumber and conquered Kallatis on the coast.
Around 230 I finally decided to involve myself in continental affairs by expanding into northern Iberia.
The Lusotannan (my allies) had unsuccessfully tried to take Baikor from the Eleutheroi until the opportunistic Carthies grabbed it from under their nose after the Lusotannan had weakened the garrison during several failed sieges.
When I showed up they decided to focus their efforts north. They took Tyde and stayed a good neighbor for a while.
Meanwhile I got into conflict with the Carthies after taking Burdigala and Tolosa. I gave the Carthies Tolosa after they besieged me in order to get them off my back.
I took Numantia as a replacement but the Carthies besieged even that. After repelling a couple of sieges I decided to let the city revolt. The Lusotannan got it, but that started a war in northern Iberia that I tried to avoid so I simply withdrew to Burdigala leaving the Lusotannan in control of my cities. Since the Carthies were unwilling to leave me in peace I decided to vacate Burdigala since a saw a small Lusotannan stack conviniently coming my way. The Carthies were faster and sent a quarter stack from Tolosa to take my undefended city.
This prompted a war between the Carthies and Lusotannan whose results are quite apparent at the final screenshot from 200 B.C.
My next effort a continental conquest was directed at the Belgae region. Where I managed to take Bratosporios after six sieges. The last one occured after I kicked out a Roman sieging army trying to take advantage of the weakened garrison.
The Romans made peace soon after along with trade rights and map information to boot. Weird. So I decided to backstabb them by bribing Bagacos in the next province which belonged to them while they were busy fighting the Sweboz. They tried to take it back with an army but I managed to beat them with a bunch of mercs and an insane general.
Since then their diplomat has been coming to me threatening to attack unless i refrain from attacking the Romans?!
I didn't know what was going on until I disabled fog of war. Apparently Rome is fighting a nice little 5 front war against the Epirotes, Carthage, Sweboz, Arverni and Aedui.
In the rest of the world the Sabyn or on the rise after being stuck in their home province for a long time they finally overcame the Eleutheroi and are starting to look like an empire. The Ptolies are more or less finished.
Around 240 B.C. they lost their home provinces in northern Egypt but managed to survive in the south and west for a long time until the Carthies allied themselves to the AS. Since then the majority of Ptoly holdings have been carved up between the two allies and the Sabyn.
The Greek expedition to Asia Minor is loosing it's momentum although it has cost the AS heavily. The Pahlava and Saka are still not moving although Baktria seems to be on the rise.
Macedon is like the cockroach Sheep mentioned. After being stuck on their little island for a couple of decades they took Pargamon and Ipsos from the AS. Now they have exchanged those holdings for Sardis and Halikarnassos.
The Koinon are steadily moving up the coast of the Black Sea while the Sauromatae are loosing their holdings to the Hai.

The Eleutheroi power was the largest issue with my modified script. I gave them too much and it stalled the faction progression.

Also putting no income cap on the Carthies has turned them into a big white African monster, so no surprises there.

The AS is still too rich. I checked the financial stats and they seem to often get an income of over 100000 which I realised since there is a steady climbing curve on their financial stats that comes rapidly down after hitting about 90000 due to Eminos new script.

Also the Hai have decent income so they can expand in time but the rest of the steppe factions are still too weak/poor.

And the Pontics need weaker Eleutheroi if they are ever going to expand and not just die out. Same goes for the Getai.

[Ower]

the one think i don't still like, is Pahlava and the Nomads. When I finish me curent campain I'll trz to find a solution.

[The_Mark]

Could you not just porportion the money gained incrementally? Say instead of giving 1200 mnai every settlement/1 turn, why not give them 300 mnai every settlement/20 turns (up to the original 1200 mnai)? This way the larger empires would gain the same amount of money as smaller ones, just not as quickly.

The only maths operation that the RTW script engine supports is addive. And that is only with counters, "variables", that cannot be used as input for, well, anything. Having proper math and variables would make everything much easier.

What we have to do is to define a separate case for every permutation.

[Gaias]

The only maths operation that the RTW script engine supports is addive. And that is only with counters, "variables", that cannot be used as input for, well, anything. Having proper math and variables would make everything much easier.

What we have to do is to define a separate case for every permutation.

Would something like this work at all them?

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType romans_julii
and not FactionIsLocal
        if I_TurnNumber > 20
           console_command add_money romans_julii, 200
        end_if
        if I_TurnNumber > 40
           console_command add_money romans_julii, 200
        end_if
        if I_TurnNumber > 60
           console_command add_money romans_julii, 200
        end_if
        if I_TurnNumber > 80
           console_command add_money romans_julii, 200
        end_if
        if I_TurnNumber > 100
           console_command add_money romans_julii, 200
        end_if

console_command add_money romans_julii, 200

end_monitor

[fallen851]

If you are worried about the spamming of armies, I think it would be far easier to control the population, and not the cash flow, since the script replenishes population lost to military units for the AI.

That way, you won't see a nation with 2 cities have 5 stacks, the amount of units they can produce will be proportional to their populations.

[Thaatu]

If you are worried about the spamming of armies, I think it would be far easier to control the population, and not the cash flow, since the script replenishes population lost to military units for the AI.

That way, you won't see a nation with 2 cities have 5 stacks, the amount of units they can produce will be proportional to their populations.

It's not so much about small factions spamming armies as it is about large factions doing so. Plus, it would still leave bribing.

[fallen851]

I guess I'm not sure I understand, some people are complaining that a huge empire has lots of stacks, and they get sick of fighting?

Look at Redmeth's post and map. He has a massive border, thousands of miles long with the Seleucid. He is at war with them, wouldn't you think there would be a lot of fighting? Wouldn't you think there would be many stacks fighting along that border? That would be realistic.

I honestly don't see the problem, it seems to me you guys want to roleplay only to the extent you are winning the entire time. There should be wars where there is lots of fighting and things stalemate, and if you can't beat them, don't fight. Now that Redmeth has taken away the money, he is advancing. Where is the glory and honor in that?

The best thing to do is develop some tactics, both in battle and on the strategy map that allow you to win. For instance, if I were Redmeth, I would open up a second front around Judea or Asia minor by sending a couple stacks in ships. Take some cities quick, then hold them, that will relieve a lot of pressure from the border as the Seleucids send the stacks to retake the cities. The defender gets a huge advantage in the cities. I've done that many, many times to big empires, and it works.

I really like having a huge superpower to fight later in the game though, I should probably just stay out of this thread.

[Eminos]

I guess I'm not sure I understand, some people are complaining that a huge empire has lots of stacks, and they get sick of fighting?

Look at Redmeth's post and map. He has a massive border, thousands of miles long with the Seleucid. He is at war with them, wouldn't you think there would be a lot of fighting? Wouldn't you think there would be many stacks fighting along that border? That would be realistic.

I honestly don't see the problem, it seems to me you guys want to roleplay only to the extent you are winning the entire time. There should be wars where there is lots of fighting and things stalemate, and if you can't beat them, don't fight. Now that Redmeth has taken away the money, he is advancing. Where is the glory and honor in that?

So suck it up and stop being wimps. You are not destined to win, and you shouldn't be, if you lose, get better. Big wars require big time, and mental toughness. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

The best thing to do is develop some tactics, both in battle and on the strategy map that allow you to win. For instance, if I were Redmeth, I would open up a second front around Judea or Asia minor by sending a couple stacks in ships. Take some cities quick, then hold them, that will relieve a lot of pressure from the border as the Seleucids send the stacks to retake the cities. The defender gets a huge advantage in the cities. I've done that many, many times to big empires, and it works.

I really like having a huge superpower to fight later in the game though.

Being one of the wimps I guess I both agree with you and disagree. I perfectly understand what you're saying and I must admit that the thought is not new. I've said it to myself at a number of occasions, "get real, get down there and dig some dirt and be a man" or something like that, "fight those bloody stack parades it's meant to be tough". That kind of thinking does not work for me in the long run. Maybe its not the right way to interpret and look at this game, but since battles in this game seldom involves more than one to two full stacks on each side per battle I think those battles should represent crucial historical battles (i.e. each soldier should count as at least five to maybe fifteen or something depending on what unit size you are using so we get numbers like those at e.g. Cannae.) You're probably already guessing where I'm heading. The problem with this game is that the battlefield AI (which have nothing to do with EB as we all know) is so bad that even a mediocre player like myself always wins these battles. The only way the AI can give you trouble is by sheer numbers, throwing stack after stack after stack at you. As I have stated earlier I think its quite tedious and boring with these stack parades, and also unrealistic if you interpret the game as I have done, but that may be wrong. In my dreams I would prefer an A.I. with a lot of levels, the hardest should be as good as the chess computer that gave Kasparov a hard time. Huge battles should not be as frequent as they are now in my opinion. The outcome of huge battles should in many cases be crucial for the future development of the factions. Some factions, like Romani could come back with vengeance after crushing defeats, some couldn't.
Sadly the dream is not going to happen in reality I guess. As far as I know, after reading some threads at the Guild, some really sharp people have given up after realizing that they can't do anything about it since its hardcoded. (Hate to write that last word, how many times have we read that?) I guess the conclusion is that I'll have to give up on this game, it will never be the really Great game it could have been if everything had held a quality matching the level of what the EB team have done. That is not going to happen either, I'm still in love with this game and I think its up to each players personal taste and to some extent modding/scripting skills to fix a tailor made copy that is as close to what you want as possible. Thats what I'm going to do anyway.

[Redmeth]

I tend to agree with what fallen said but fighting 3 battles every turn maybe more because I'm at war with the Maks now (backstabbing @#!$!#!) gives me phalanx bad dreams and in what war were there 3 major battles every season for 20 years or more if it keeps going this way.
The fault is the game's though it can't simulate the importance and outcome of a big battle and encounters of small armies vs small armies are too frequent and you have to control them or get defeated on auto-play.
I still get sieged every 2 turns or so by the Seleucids but only 1 max 2 cities at a time and not huge armies of elites. They're also fighting Ptolies to she south as I managed to get Memphis to rebel back to the Ptolies and Baktria got a province back by way of rebellion too (gotta love the spies, didn't know you could do that before having to do it in EB).
Well, in conclusion it's better but I think more tweaking is needed it's getting a bit too easy right now.. (because for some time they still had a lot stacks built before I installed the new script)
This is my progress in 6 years of using the new script most of it would have happened anyway as my raiding parties were already ready for raiding and keeping few of their huge cities for the booty and income before the new script was installed (and the saying goes "the sinews of war are infinite money") but some of the tediousness was reduced.
Before:

After: