Welcome to Warhammer MTW2

[Bob the Spork]

It's based on length of leg. Humanoids have normal legs. Little stumpy dwarfes and halflings have less movement. Big ogres and trolls, as well as prissy, yet lanky, elves, have more movement. Always look at the legs!

The only one that doesn't fit is the zombies... Who heard of a zombie matching anyone for speed?

[Bwian]

I made some for RTW, and the easiest way I found to make them 'slow' was to replace the charge and run animations for the walk. All they ever did was walk. They were virtually useless in a fight, since every other unit on the field could get away from them. Trouble was...if you actually got engaged by other units, then they caught up and started to eat brains

I have high hopes that animations will be possible in the same way. It allowed me to create artificially slow units without hte need for huge amounts of new anim sets. Lots of new animations = much work!

[uanime5]

A unit that can't run will be at a big disadvantage since it can't escape from infantry. A whole race that's slow will be vulnerable to skirmishs (can't catch the unit) and flanks (can't change position in time). By contrast a unit that always runs will have a large advantage over a normal race and a huge advantage over a slow race.

It may be helpful to decide how each race will fight. For example Skaven have lots of infantry and some siege equipment but few archers and cavalry. Since they cannot rely on outflanking an opponent (cavalry is far more effective than infantry) and will have trouble shooting at their enemies from a distance (siege equipment is not accurate and they lack missile units) their main attack pattern would involve attacking with waves of infantry to wear an opponent down (attrition). Though if they have a lot of infantry they're vulnerable to skirmishing archers and being flanked by cavalry.

[Bwian]

In the case of zombies, the slow movement and relatively weak attack would be backed up by the difficulty of 'killing' them and the lack of morale problems. You could use them as a 'sponge' to soak up an assault or as a bulwark to defend archers. They would be cheap to obtain, and easy to replace... I mean... after a big battle, there would never EVER be a shortage of new recruits to a zombie force!

[Bob the Spork]

uanime: You almost got the skaven right. The thing is, their siege weaponry is actually quite accurate. Jezzails, in particular, are more like massive rifles than siege weapons. These should be able to hit when they need to. Waves should be usuable for skaven, but siege weaponry should also be capable of killing enemy infantry. In addition to this, skaven have some rather nastier combat units, like rat ogres and gutter runners.

I agree completely with stopping zombies from running. It's perfect in every way. It also differentiates them nicely from basic skeletons, who could run. I can only image what a massive wave of zombies climbing ladders would be like in a siege...

[DrZoidberg]

uanime: You almost got the skaven right. The thing is, their siege weaponry is actually quite accurate. Jezzails, in particular, are more like massive rifles than siege weapons. These should be able to hit when they need to. Waves should be usuable for skaven, but siege weaponry should also be capable of killing enemy infantry. In addition to this, skaven have some rather nastier combat units, like rat ogres and gutter runners.

I agree completely with stopping zombies from running. It's perfect in every way. It also differentiates them nicely from basic skeletons, who could run. I can only image what a massive wave of zombies climbing ladders would be like in a siege...

Well, we've got musketeers models for Jezails. I know they're suposed to be small teams but bending it a bit wouldn't hurt.

I checked both the undead source books. Zombies also have move 4.

Beside various freaky units, the faster units are horses and various ghosty things.

If we want to be true to Warhammer movement isn't really a problem. We could have the wraiths and banshees as run-all-the-time units. And we can have them as a fear spreading unit. Would be cool.

Next problem is that they're suposed to be imune to ordinary weapons. They can be harmed by magical weapons, but how possibly could this be worked in to the TW engine? We could just ignore it though.

[DrZoidberg]

To make the game more interseting I suggest that we decide now how the factions will differ from each other. Which factions are weak in the begining and which are strong in the end and in what way. I'm suposed to write the troop descriptions. But it's hard to do without knowing if they're good or not for their period. It's kind of what's informative about the text.

The Warhammer army lists assumes only one age. We can off-course place equipment anywhere in the tech tree.

The undead I assume are strong starters but weak enders, since they kind of start with the pinnacle of their technological development.

Humans have a lot of technological research going on, so they I think should follow MTW2's western trees. ie strong in the end. Since they bassicly are the Holy Roman empire and England/France, why not keep them as such?

Elves? I don't see them as a tech savvy research gang. More into just acting uppity and being arrogant. I'd love to see their troops, very good but expensive. Just as in the WH sourcebook. The best archers in the entire game. Maybe starting with lots of experience. And if castles regenerate slowly we'll have a faction that's very strong but will lose an atrition war.

Skaven off-course being retards in the beginning and very advanced toward the end. In the source books. Clan rats are even cheaper than skeletons or Zombies (= sucky city). I wouldn't mind having Skaven Jezails in the end just like musketeers are in MTW2.

I have no idea where we fit orcs into this. I'd assume they're the least likely to advance in any way or form. Strong start weak end?

How about making Chaos non-playable? And have them like Mongols and Timurids. Just come in now and again and fuck everybody over. It is kind of what they're suposed to do, right?

Thoughts on this?

[Bob the Spork]

Firstly, on the zombie issue. Yes, zombies have a similar movement to skeletons, however the braindead rule (in the latest army book, that is), which is made to highlight their slowness, gives grounds to stop them running.

This raises a good point. Are we adapting the warhammer table top game, or the warhammer IP world? Gamewise, zombies are as quick to move as skeletons, but background-wise, they're far slower.


Orcs and goblins are a horde. Lots of bad troops, a few silly troops, and the odd stupid troop. Goblins will, essentially, be rubbish in everything bar the number you get and the cost to get them. Orcs will cause massive damage, and have two or three hitpoints, but they'll have quite a low defence, and quite a low morale. They have quite a balanced army, with weak and strong infantry, cavalry and siege weapons, but only mediocre archers. They should be a strong competitor from start to finish, neither weak nor powerful at any stage of the game. High stamina here but, as I said, low morale.

Brettonians and Empire, basically any humans, should be weaker earlier on, with a strong late game as they unlock more powerful knights and blackpowder weapons, respectively. Early on their units should be moderate at best, with Brettonia possibly having a slighty stronger early game, in return for a slightly weaker later game. Brettonia should also have a far more limited army, being focused almost completely on heavy cavalry, while the Empire has a more flexible selection.

Skaven should be similar, having hordes of chaff for an army at the beginning, and hordes of alchemical killing machine equipped loonies at the end. They should have a lot of very bad troops, and even their elites (like plague monks, gutter runners, and rat ogres), shouldn't be able to stand up to powerful enemies in an even fight. No bows or crossbows, but a lot of firepower later on, as artillery, jezzails, and other crazy stuff comes into play. Low morale here, though not so bad as orcs. Generals should give massive bonuses to it, because the little rats are scared of their leaders. Some units, in contrast, should be very brave, because they're plain bonkers.

The Undead should have a powerful early game, but fall behind as the game goes on, though not too much. Having elites from the start gives them power, as well as hordes of rubbish troops (in the case of vampire counts (ie zombies)), but by the end they're using the same units, in the same limited numbers, while others have caught up in power, and overtaken in number. Their armies are mostly based around horde, with a few incredibly powerful units to give some punch. Little missile weaponry for the counts, but quite a bit of it for the tomb kings. Immune to morale and stamina damage if possible, but a huge blow to the morale, maybe even enough to instant break the entire army, if the general dies.

Elves should be a early-mid game, only falling behind in the very last reaches of the campaign. Their armies should be balanced, with every troops type, but with all of them being very expensive. Very high morale and stamina.

Dwarfs, if they are included, should be the other way, being slightly weaker at the beginning, but stronger mid-late, as they build cannons, handguns, organ guns and all that. Also very expensive armies. Very high morale, even higher than elves, and just as high a stamina.

Lizardmen should also have expensive armies. Their saurus should be the most powerful infantry in the game, capable of taking on elites with basic units. Very expensive armies, very low rate of recruitment. Massive morale, though average stamina. Skinks provide high stamina, low morale, missile fire, using blowpipes and javellins. These have short range, but plenty of ammo and medium damage. The skinks should be quick enough to get away from all but light cavalry. No longer ranged missile fire. Some very powerful elites, which only Chaos will be able to compete with unit for unit. Strongest early on, but still capable later on.

Chaos, finally. Making them an emergant one would be good, so long as you can have four or five (one for each power, not sure whether to include undivided in that). Basic and elite troops with good morale, good damage. Chaos warriors should be on par with Saurus, or other races elites, but most other troops should have low defence. No missile fire at all, but some siege weapons (ie hellcannon). Daemons, the best troops, will vary depending on power, but be universally immensely powerful in their own ways. Khorne should be based on killing power and defence, Slaanesh on fear and killing power, but low defence, nurgle on near invulnerability, but mediocre offense, and Tzeetch should be based around ranged combat, making it unique. Chaos should be powerful from the moment their attacks begin, and not lose a shred of power as it goes on. Very strong from start to finish, especially if they come in as an emergent nation.

[Sno]

Nice day and greetings from germany. Wow a Warhammermod for MTW2, with Camaign. i think this is the best engine for this mod for a long time.
Where can i get it?
is it ready ? DO is the best, MOC sucks. theres no tactical deep, only mass
win! you make a great thing with this mod. thanks !

[Myrddraal]

Hi Sno, the mod is in the early stages of development and so can't be downloaded.

[uanime5]

DrZoidberg and Bob the Spork would this be an accurate summary of each faction? The Infantry, Missile, and Cavalry refers to how each faction's Infantry, Missile, and Cavalry compare to other faction's Infantry, Missile, and Cavalry of the same technological level.

Ogres
Type:
Infantry: strong (weak later)
Missile: strong (they carry canons)
Cavalry: average (Rhinoxen)
Siege weapons: strong
Advantages: high hit points, defence, and strength
Disadvantages: very low moral and discipline
Allies:
Enemies:

Orcs (Green skin)
Type:
Infantry: average (weak later)
Missile: low-average archers
Cavalry: average (weak later)
Siege weapons: average
Advantages: high hit points and strength
Disadvantages: very low moral and low defence
Allies:
Enemies:

Goblins / Gnoblar (Green skin)
Type: (part of Orc / Ogre faction respectively)
Infantry: weak
Missile: weak
Cavalry: weak
Siege weapons: weak
Advantages: large number of cheap units
Disadvantages: weak soldiers
Allies:
Enemies:

Brettonia (Human)
Type: France
Infantry: weak
Missile: average (stronger later)
Cavalry: above average (stronger later)
Siege weapons: weak
Advantages: strong heavy cavalry
Disadvantages: moderate infantry and missiles
Allies: Empire, Wood Elves, High Elves
Enemies: all Chaos factions, Skaven, Dark Elves

Empire (Human)
Type: Holy Roman Empire
Infantry: average
Missile: average (stronger later)
Cavalry: average (stronger later)
Siege weapons: average (strong later)
Advantages: balanced faction
Disadvantages:
Allies: High Elves, Dwarves, Brettonia, Kislev
Enemies: all Chaos factions, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Orcs, Ogres

Kislev (Human)
Type: Poland?
Infantry:
Missile:
Cavalry:
Siege weapons:
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
Allies:
Enemies:

Skaven
Type:
Infantry: weak (moderate later)
Missile: weak (strong later)
Cavalry: none
Siege weapons: weak (strong later)
Advantages: strong late missile and siege weapons, cheap units
Disadvantages: low moral for most units
Allies:
Enemies: all other factions

Tomb Kings (undead)
Type: Egyptian
Infantry: strong (average later)
Missile: strong (average later)
Cavalry: strong (average later)
Siege weapons: average
Advantages: strong starting army and high moral, appearence frightens the enemy
Disadvantages: lacks good late game army
Allies:
Enemies: all other factions

Vampire Counts (undead)
Type: Byzantine (East European) / horde army
Infantry: weak (becomes strong later)
Missile: weak
Cavalry: weak (becomes strong later)
Siege weapons: none
Advantages: large starting army and high moral, appearence frightens the enemy
Disadvantages: few missile units, lacks good late game army
Allies:
Enemies: all other factions

High Elves
Type:
Infantry: strong
Missile: strong
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons: weak
Advantages: balanced and strong army, high moral and stamina
Disadvantages: expensive soldiers, slow unit refresh rate
Allies: Empire, Brettonia, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Kislev
Enemies: all Chaos factions, Dark Elves

Dark Elves
Type: horde
Infantry: strong
Missile: strong
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons: weak
Advantages: balanced and strong army, high moral and stamina
Disadvantages: expensive soldiers, slow unit refresh rate, low defence
Allies:
Enemies: all other factions

Wood Elves
Type: English (they have long range archers)
Infantry: average
Missile: strongest
Cavalry: average
Siege weapons: weak
Advantages: strongest archers, high moral and stamina
Disadvantages: expensive soldiers, slow refresh unit rate, weak infantry and cavalry
Allies: Brettonia
Enemies:

Dwarves
Type:
Infantry: average
Missile: weak (strong later)
Cavalry: none
Siege weapons: medium (stronger later)
Advantages: very high moral and stamina
Disadvantages: expensive soldiers, slow unit refresh rate
Allies: Empire, Kislev, Brettonia
Enemies: Skaven, all Chaos, all elves, all undead, all Greenskin

Lizardmen
Type: Aztec
Infantry: strong
Missile: average
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons: strong
Advantages: highest moral, fast units
Disadvantages: very expenisve, slow refresh rate, average stamina
Allies:
Enemies: all Chaos factions, Dark Elves, Skaven, all Greenskin

Undivided / Daemons (Chaos)
Type: West Roman rebels (emerged from rebeling cities) or a guild unit
Infantry: strong
Missile: none
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons: moderate
Advantages: strong infantry and cavalry
Disadvantages: medium-low defence, no missile units
Allies: Dark Elves
Enemies: all other factions (except Dark Elves)

Khorne (Chaos)
Type: West Roman rebels (emerged from rebeling cities)
Infantry: strong
Missile: none
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons:
Advantages: strong infantry and cavalry, moderate unit defence
Disadvantages: no missile units
Allies: Dark Elves
Enemies: all other factions (except Dark Elves)

Slaanesh (Chaos)
Type: West Roman rebels (emerged from rebeling cities)
Infantry: strong
Missile: none
Cavalry: strong
Siege weapons:
Advantages: strong infantry and cavalry, appearence frightens the enemy,
Disadvantages: low defence, no missile units
Allies: Dark Elves
Enemies: all other factions (except Dark Elves)

Nurgle (Chaos)
Type: West Roman rebels (emerged from rebeling cities)
Infantry: average
Missile: none
Cavalry: average
Siege weapons:
Advantages: high hit points, high defence
Disadvantages: average infantry and cavalry, no missile units
Allies: Dark Elves
Enemies: all other factions (except Dark Elves)

Tzeetch (Chaos)
Type: East Roman rebels (emerged from rebeling cities)
Infantry: average
Missile: strong
Cavalry: average
Siege weapons:
Advantages: strong missile units
Disadvantages: average infantry and cavalry, low defence
Allies: Dark Elves
Enemies: all other factions (except Dark Elves)

[Bob the Spork]

You're not too far off... My opinions...

Orcs
I'd say the infantry and cavalry should only decrease to medium, but otherwise fine.

Goblins
Rubbish in every way! Damn right there! Definately cheap as well. The phrase 'breed like rabbits' is a serious understatement from these guys. They quite literally pop out of the ground! From mushrooms! However, these should be part of the same faction as orcs really, as they are one race, simply different 'breeds' of it, and they all live together, usually with the goblins firmly under orc control.

Brettonia (Human)
Infantry are weak, rubbish even, unless you include some dismounted knights.

Empire (Human)
Siege weapons... weak? No! These guys have cannons, mortars, even the hellblaster volley guns! Think of a medieval minigun! Very powerful siege weapons. Very!

Skaven
Fine on this one.

Tomb Kings
Siege should be medium, which you didn't put anything for. Otherwise also fine.

Vampire Counts
Poor everything, moving into strong later in the game, though missile should stay weak. Mainly a horde army. Causes fear. No siege weapons, ever.

Elves
Elves? Which sort? High, or Dark, elves would have very high everything but very expensive and few in numbers. Wood elves would have the best missile units in the game, but weaker infantry and cavalry, and little, if any, siege.

Dwarves
No cavalry, obviously. Siege, infantry and archers should start off medium, and get better from there on in.

Lizardmen
No siege. Cavalry are strong, as they're the same guys that make their infantry strong (the Saurii). Considering you managed to class Vampire Counts as Byzantines, I fail to see how you didn't see these guys' connection with the Aztecs though!

Daemons (Chaos)
You'd be better off saying 'Undivided, (Chaos)'. Comparitively, daemons are rare compared to mortal followers, unless you're in the North of the Chaos wastes, and if you are you're dead. Defence... not sure it should be low, but neither medium. Say medium-low-ish?

Khorne (Chaos)
Fine.

Slaanesh (Chaos)
Fine.

Nurgle (Chaos)
Fine, but high defence, definately high!

Tzeetch (Chaos)
Fine.


Generally that was pretty good, just a few details here and there. A few minor tweaks is all it takes.

[alexader]

I want to add something to the whole game.Why you have to make the early,high and later stages in some factions like the Empire.I believe that Empire is supposed to have handgunners and cannons from the begging beacuse what the will have from the begging:archers millitia and with no artilery.I think we should stick with what warhammer is today (also Emprire always had gunpowder) and with what Game workshop allow us.(for the end,Bwian I think it's better to make Empire handgunners us musketeers and no us handgunners from the Medieval 2 TW and darwves thunderes us arcqebusiers).

[uanime5]

I made the changes you suggested Bob the Spork. I left some areas blank because I was unsure about what the should be. Also I listed the orcs and goblins seperately because they are so different. I also added a list of allies and enemies for the various factions to show how they are view one another.

I can't belive I forgot to say the Lizards were Aztecs.

[Bwian]

Alexader ... there are 2 possible approaches to doing a mod like this:

1) You have all the units available, and the armies are limited only by the money you have. This is how the tabletop game goes. You have army points, and each side selects an army, and you fight the battle.

2) You have a more TW style of game, where empires and factions develop from simpler beginnings and develop technology to allow recruitment of more advanced units. This is a game spanning centuries, and developments will happen for those races that do things like this! Elves...for whom a few centuries is nothing.... undead...who are probably pretty set in their ways, and such like would determine how much/little a race would advance. This in turn would driver the strategy you would need to make best use of a given faction.

We prefer the second choice.

The first option is available for those who want it.....it's called a' custom battle' and can be done in EXACTLY the manner a tabletop battle would be done. This will ALWAYS be there for those who want to play it that way and just have a battle.

For a campaign..more depth is required, and that is why the campaign is structured the way it is, and why we are thrashing ideas around to try and come up with a good structure that will allow the mod to be challenging, fun, and true to the Warhammer ethos.

[Casuir]

Most units in warhammer and total war have one hitpoint, so I dont know if those high hitpoints in there are really relevant. Also this hording thing is off the mark, the Skaven, Orc and Gobbos all have named settlements in the fluff, none of them need to be hordes. If youre trying to find a faction which resembles them theres none really. Likewise chaos, other than the rebelling thing you mention, which I doubt would work, they have absolutly nothing in common with the roman empire, rebels or otherwise. Huns or Vandals would be nearer. They have space on the map too, some of the northern wastes will be included, although its not ideal and it remains to be seen how the AI will handle it.

[alexader]

I don't have a different opinion,I like the idea of developing a faction and I don't only stay on custom battles.I just wondering what will be available in the early stages of the game from what we have

[uanime5]

Bwain certain technologies, such as gun powder, can only be obtained when the game reaches a certain point. We could introduce similar limits to prevent factions getting too many good units early on.

[Bob the Spork]

Hmm… I must admit, I never considered ‘Horde’ to mean ‘no settlements’; I was more thinking in terms of army composition.

You’re right. There are grounds to make orcs and gobbos a horde or a fixed faction, though the latter is probably preferable. The skaven, on the other hand, are definitely a fixed one. Skavenblight is the biggest city, in terms of population, in the warhammer world, after all, and Hell Pit is second.

Unanime, I’ve looked over it again to fill in the blanks. The allies… hmm… shaky ground there. This is warhammer, after all…

Ogres… are allied to no one. They get hired as mercenaries, but they don’t make friends.

Orcs… are allied to no one. Some ogres join their armies, as do trolls and giants, but they aren’t allies on anything more than a small scale. You won’t find an orc tribe and an ogre tribe living together, one would take over or destroy the other.

Basically, orcs are everyone’s enemies, and ogres are everyone’s neutral but untrustworthy neighbour.

Goblins, or gnoblars, are slaves. They have no allies (especially not their masters, who are in reality their worst enemies, quite often). When they exist independently, they’re a royal pain in the backside for everyone, so these guys are an enemy for everyone as well.

Brettonia… enemies of Chaos, yes. Also enemies of the undead. Krell, the wright king, was one of the nation’s greatest enemies (three times and counting). Wood Elves aren’t really an enemy. They’ve fought, maybe, but Brettonia has had wars with the Empire as well. On the other hand, the Wood Elves have also been their allies on numerous occasions. Therefore neither can be called a true ally or enemy, they change to suit the needs. Enemies of skaven too, as there are a lot of the rats in the south of the country. Dark elves are another enemy, from coastal raids. They get on alright with the High Elves though.

The Empire… well we have our first proper alliances! The Empire is a staunch ally with Kislev, and the two have never fought. Dwarfs are generally friends of the Empire as well, though minor disputes have come between them, usually over some human noble not paying the dwarfs for building his castle. Unfortunately this ends with the dwarfs taking the castle back, by force. As I said before, they’ve had wars with Brettonia, some quite recently. Definitely an enemy of Chaos, dark elves, as these guys raid the coast, orcs and ogres who come over the mountains and from the south, and the undead, who exist in Sylvania. Skaven are an enemy, as usual. High Elves… could get away with them as an ally, like the dwarfs. They’ve had their problems, but it’s generally ok.

Skaven… are allies of no one. They had a massive war with the lizardmen a long time ago. They’ve attacked the Brettonians, the Empire, Kislev and Tilea (they destroyed the city of Miragliano lately, one of the biggest in Tilea). They take orcs and goblins as slaves so the green guys hate them too. Basically, everyone hates the rats, even other rats.

Tomb Kings fight only for themselves, so they have no allies. Enemies of everyone.

Vampire Counts: Lahmians and Nechrarch’s have caused a lot of trouble in Kislev. Blood Dragons have been annoying in Brettonia, and some parts of the Empire. Von Carsteins are obviously the worst, being one of the biggest enemies of the Empire. Strigoi are all across the south of the Empire, as well as the Border Princes and Tilea, and are generally horrible and gribbly. Basically, everyone’s enemy and no ones ally again.

High Elves can ally with Brettonia and the Empire. Neutral with the Lizardmen, Estalia and Tilea, Kislev and Albion, and the Wood Elves. Enemy of everything else, especially Dark Elves.

Dark Elves are enemies of the Lizardmen and High Elves in particular, but are also an enemy of everyone else. Maybe Neutral with Chaos, but shaky ground there.

Wood Elves are neutral generally. They don’t leave their wood. Anyone who comes in dies, whoever you are, if you don’t come in they don’t care whoever you are. Completely Neutral.

Dwarfs. Allies of the Empire and Kislev. Reasonable terms with Brettonia, Tilea and Estalia. Enemies of all things spiky (Chaos), pointy eared (elves), green, big (ogres, trolls, giants and whatever), dead (undead of all sorts, mainly Lahmians) or rat-like (skaven).

Lizardmen are neutral to the high and wood elves, and to the humans of Albion. Everything else is part way between insignificant and annoying, but isn’t really an enemy, except Skaven, Greenskins, Dark Elves and Chaos, who they want dead.

Chaos… well they just want everyone dead. Maybe neutral to Dark Elves. Maybe.


I hope you get the idea. Basically, most folks hate each other, and if they don’t they still aren’t on good terms. A lot of races have few friends and a lot of enemies (in fact they all do). This world is pretty dark and gritty, remember. No happy fellowships to take on the bad guys here.

[Bwian]

That is EXACTLY why the Warhammer world is so wonderful for a mod basis. There is no annoying Pope telling you to lay off a fellow Christian state, and then inoring hte fact they just marched a huge army into your backyard.

Diplomatic options are possible in some cases, but even when they do happen, they are not solid and unsakable. At some point in history, every faction has duked it out with every other faction, or has had enough tension and misunderstandings to make it possible!

or now, though, we need to focus on the broader mechanics of the game to get everything under control.

I've starter on the unit construction, and will be turning up the pressure on that. We need to get the basic build and tech trees finalised, and also need to look at building a couple of new cultures to make the less 'standard' factions look and feel correct.

Diplomacy is an issue we can look at...but we could just as easily make everyone neutral or hostile to their neighbours and just fight for control!

[DrZoidberg]

he he. I did a list just like it, but scrapped it because WH doesn't have a tech tree. It's all their at once. We have totaly free hands here to make it fun. But thanks Uanime5 for doing the work. As far as the MTW2 inventions go, as in locking up new buildings, I’m not sure how to utilize it well. Skaven would be in a terrible starting position without gunpowder.

Just by looking at the army books, here's my opinions on adjustments.

Orcs.
I don't think they should be horde. They’ll work great as playable races They're not menacingly evil, just dumb. They’ve got below average but very cheap armies, which should lend them well to getting the swarming greenskin Orc feel to them. I think we should make it uneconomical for them to use the elite units.

Infantry.
The core unit is the Orc. Strong but catastrophic moral. Goblins are extraordinarily cheap but can still fight, (2 points in the source book).

They’ve got the elite Black Orcs, but they’re supposed to be uncommon. Not so much stronger, just better moral. Trolls are more uncommon and very strong. Expensive.

Ranged
Below average, but cheap, which should make them a good buy for Orcs. No crossbows.

Cavalry.
Boar Boyz, aren’t the best cavalry but at a low cost.
Goblin Wolf riders are very very cheap, (10 points) considering how relatively good they are.

Siege weapons.
Rock Lobba and Spear Chukka, (catapult and ballista). Cheap and average. They’ve also got the Doom Diver Catapult and Snotling Pump Wagon, which may be a tad harder to use.


Bretonnia, Empire
Both are heavy on the cavalry but the Empire is slightly better balanced. I'd love to see the gunpowder units come later in the game.

Infantry
Both have pretty crappy infantry. Bretonnia being the bottom of the barrel. They've got unhorsed knights, but they are very expensive. Their core unit is the lightly armoured men-at-arms. Sucky. The Empire are a notch about with Swordsmen and spearmen.

Ranged
Empire has crossbows and hand gunners, Bretonnia at best has archers.

Cavalry
This is where they shine. Bretonnias cavalry are superior to any other in the Entire WH universe. Empires is just below them in points.

siege weapons
Brettonias best atillery is the trebuchet. Empire has the mortar. So nothing impressive here.



Skaven.
I think Skaven should be playable, (ie non-horde) of the simple reason that I think they’d be great to play. I suggest that we make their siege weapons extremely cheap and very powerful, but that everything else sucks, and basically live to protect the siege engines.

Infantry:
Sucks ass. Even weaker than human infantry. They also have slave units that are even weaker.

Ranged:
Jezzails, (basically musketeers), Poison Wind Gglobadiers, (Naffatun?). No archers or crossbows.

Cavalry:
They don’t have any at all.

Siege:
This is where it gets interesting. Ratling gun, (We could use the ribault for this). Warp lightning cannons.

Special: Screaming bell. Just like the Milanese moral wagon.

Disadvantages: Extraordinarily low moral. According to the source book it’s one of their defining features.
Advantages: Siege weapons. Cheap and great.

Advantages: I think it should be price. Cheap units all around. If we introduce gunpowder just as in MTW2, the Skaven goal should be to just survive until gunpowder comes, and then just kill ‘em all.

Tomb Kings.

Good summery. I do think these would lend themselves good for a horde. Though.

Elves.
Good summaries.

Vampire Counts.
In the Warhammer books. These are charecterised by having a few extraordinarly powerful vampire units supported by garbage. They’ve got Banshees that can whiz around and frighten.

Dwarfs

We’re not having them in the first installment of this mod are we?

Lizardmen

Infantry
The core unit is the Saurus warrior. Strong but expensive, (12 points). Temple guards are stronger and even more expensive.

Ranged
Weak but cheap Skinks armed with javelins or blowpipes.

Cavalry
Kroxigor and Saurus cavalry. Strong and expensive.

Siege weapon
Stegadon. 235 points. Super expensive but tough as a mofo. I have no idea how to implement this in MTW2. We could have their Slann Mage Priests as siege weapons. Shooting cannonballs. But change the graphics.




Chaos.
These I’d love to see as a horde. We can have them come in waves. Same army but different times. They’re heavily based around magic, so I’m not sure how we’d translate that to MTW2.

They don’t really have any weaknesses but are characterized by having expensive but strong units. Their most basic core unit, Chaos Warrior, costs 14 points, which is almost double of other faction’s core unit, (8 points in average). There’s no problem translating that to MTW2. Reminds me a lot of fighting the Timurids, where every single unit is massively over-powered.

The difference between the gods and their followers is pretty deep. Khornates are the only ones where we really can discuss strength and weaknesses. They should just roam around and sack cities. Tzeentch and Slaaneesh aren’t really into war and weapons at all. Slaaneesh followers just want to have fun, (at others expense) and Tzeentch would rather avoid war all together and corrupt from the inside. Nurgle followers welcome decay. Their major weapon isn’t really its troops is it?

How many hordes can we have in the game?

I love to see them come time and time again swarming the map at regular intervals.


Dogs of war.
This will be super easy to implement in the game because the mercenary system is perfect for this.

My two cents at least.

[Bob the Spork]

The Empire has some good infantry. Swordmen are pretty good. Greatswords are good. Also, the Empire's siege? Nothing Impressive?! They have more than mortars, friend. Think of the cannons! The Hellblaster Volley Guns! The Empire is second only to the dwarfs in its power of artillery.


Skaven have some good troops on foot. Rat Ogres are good, and plague priests or stormvermin can hold their own as well. They have warpfire throwers as well. Flamethrowers. Yay!


Stagadon would be easy. They're practically elephants, after all, at least in proportions and size.


Chaos's most basic core unit is not the Chaos Warrior, it is the Marauder, a Chaos clansman from the North. They are much more like other factions. If you go background wise, Marauders make up a lot more of the Chaos armies, with Chaos Warriors being more elites than basic.

For all you say, the other Chaos do use armies and do attack and fight wars. Khorne, admittedly, is more focused on it, but not by that much. They all want to conquer, and you can't do that from afar, no matter how hard you try.

[DrZoidberg]

The Empire has some good infantry. Swordmen are pretty good. Greatswords are good. Also, the Empire's siege? Nothing Impressive?! They have more than mortars, friend. Think of the cannons! The Hellblaster Volley Guns! The Empire is second only to the dwarfs in its power of artillery.

I missed the cannon. Sorry. They've got more sweet stuff.

Greatswords are a "special unit" which means they should only be a small part of the army. When I look at the army lists I only look at core units, because of the simple fact, that they suposed to be the core of the army.

Skaven have some good troops on foot. Rat Ogres are good, and plague priests or stormvermin can hold their own as well. They have warpfire throwers as well. Flamethrowers. Yay!

Same here. I only look at core units. And even then, Rat Ogres are a bit over priced don't you think? Not really worth it.

Stagadon would be easy. They're practically elephants, after all, at least in proportions and size.

Off-course. Didn't think of that.

Chaos's most basic core unit is not the Chaos Warrior, it is the Marauder, a Chaos clansman from the North. They are much more like other factions. If you go background wise, Marauders make up a lot more of the Chaos armies, with Chaos Warriors being more elites than basic.

Chaos warriors are a core unit, but this I think is down to style of play perhaps. The marauders are very cheap though.

For all you say, the other Chaos do use armies and do attack and fight wars. Khorne, admittedly, is more focused on it, but not by that much. They all want to conquer, and you can't do that from afar, no matter how hard you try.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that the other chaos factions don't fight wars. It's just that their weapons of choice don't really fit into the MTW2 engine. It's all various forms of magic.

[uanime5]

Okay I've made the changes. Also in M2TW you can only set a faction to be allies (won't attack each other), enemies (will attack each other), or neutral (may attack each other). So I listed a lot of the neutral factions as allies so they won't attack each other early on. Since allied faction's don't fight for one another it should not cause too many problems. I noticed that factions seemed to have good relations with others or are at war with everyone.

I also added Kislev because it was mentioned a lot. Can I have some info about its military and relationships with others.

[Meneldil]

In the actual fluff, Bretonnia and Athel Loren aren't allies anymore. The last edition clearly stated they've made some kind of official alliance, this is not the case anymore, and the Wood Elven are all but friendly to their neightboors.

No more alliance, no more "we get along fine when it comes to fight beastmen or skavens". They just don't talk anymore, and the Elven kill on sight any human coming near their forest. I'd even say that wood elven shouldn't be considered "good". They pretty much kill everyone they dislike, be it human, beastman, dwarf or anything else.

Kislev is officially allied with the Empire and to a lesser extend Bretonnia, though they kislevites quite frankly dislike their southern allies.

[Bob the Spork]

Dr Zoidberg, I think where we disagree, judging by your responses, is that you're basing your suggestions upon army lists, while I'm basing mine on background material. Although I admit there are faults with my views as well (more often than I admit, as well), I feel I have to point out the the table top game isn't a full view of what the armies are like. A lot of things are changed to make it work better, such as making Chaos Warriors a core unit, when in the background they seem much more like an elite unit, as rare as the Empire Greatswords even, according to some sources.

So, I think I've asked this before, but I'll do so again. In this project, are we translating the warhammer table top wargame into a RTS format, or are we translating the warhammer world into RTS format? Unfortunately, we can't do both without clashing. This is a question for you, Bwian, and it would be immensely useful to know the answer before we go any further with this.

[Bwian]

My personal intention was to bring the Tabletop Wargame to the MTW2 engine. There is extra material in the wider world that will help to fill in the campaign and add details the wargame misses out... but the core of the mod is combat, and the core combat is the wargame.

We need a degree of flexibility all round, since the game engine puts limitations on what can be done, and the complexity of some elements will be limited. When it comes to unit availability, we will have to lean towards the wargame. I want to give the thing a good balance..so again, if units are too powerful, then they will be necessarily hard to recruit and expensive to retain.

I am aware, naturally, that the wargame does not have the depth of info..which is where other source material can be drafted in. After all, all you were doing was building a force from your stock of miniatures to an agreed count of army-points. That does not translate to a campaign ( but is exactly what you do in a custom battle )

The fine detail of the balance of units, cost and availability will be something we go over in detail when we balance the game up ... and playability will make it clear how good we got it!

Right now, there is room for plenty of opinions, and plenty of information. The right and wrong of it will be proven when the thing is more playable.

Priority now is deciding what units we need to build, what variations of the models are needed to fill out the ranks, and how we are going to work the recruitment/build/tech trees to best reflect the ethos of ht egame and hte mechanics of the engine.

[DrZoidberg]

My personal intention was to bring the Tabletop Wargame to the MTW2 engine. There is extra material in the wider world that will help to fill in the campaign and add details the wargame misses out... but the core of the mod is combat, and the core combat is the wargame.

We need a degree of flexibility all round, since the game engine puts limitations on what can be done, and the complexity of some elements will be limited. When it comes to unit availability, we will have to lean towards the wargame. I want to give the thing a good balance..so again, if units are too powerful, then they will be necessarily hard to recruit and expensive to retain.

I am aware, naturally, that the wargame does not have the depth of info..which is where other source material can be drafted in. After all, all you were doing was building a force from your stock of miniatures to an agreed count of army-points. That does not translate to a campaign ( but is exactly what you do in a custom battle )

The fine detail of the balance of units, cost and availability will be something we go over in detail when we balance the game up ... and playability will make it clear how good we got it!

Right now, there is room for plenty of opinions, and plenty of information. The right and wrong of it will be proven when the thing is more playable.

Priority now is deciding what units we need to build, what variations of the models are needed to fill out the ranks, and how we are going to work the recruitment/build/tech trees to best reflect the ethos of ht egame and hte mechanics of the engine.

When it comes to chosing which units to include I think priority number one should be using what we have allready as much as possible, and not making more work and units than necessary. I'd hate to see this turn to shit because of unrealisticly high set goals. There is no problem in making the advanced ones in the 2.0 release. I think we should initially put all our focus on core units and leave the specials for last.

I don't think it matters if we translate Warhammer tabletop or WFRP. It's suposed to be the same game. And then we've got Games Workshops cynical marketing system, where they constantly introduce new units in White Dwarf that are just a tiny little bit better, in order to sell more blister packs.

I also think that petty squabling about minor details, doesn't really add anything. I personally don't really care if Chaos Warriors or Marauders is the most common unit in the chaos army, (even though chaos warriors would be way cooler). This is where Bwain our friendly mod dictator can do a lot of good by arbitrarily deciding.

My goal is to get all the basic details about the Warhammer universe correct. It would suck if we would find out we got something major wrong.

Flexibility is the key I think.

[Bwian]

Mod Dictator ... AND MODELLER....so when it comes to making decisions about how many new units we are going to have in the mod, not only do I make the decisions, but I do the work too... which makes me well qualified to decide!

We also have, in Casuir, ANOTHER modeller capable of putting units in game. This puts us in a very comfortable position when it comes to this sort of thing. I have no intention of relying on the stock units with a quick re-skin .. it just doesn't work very well. You do things like that when you have to .. and we don't have to. The unit roster for each faction is realistic in terms of workload, achievable in terms of the tools, and is going to get finished.

What we really need is for our text editors to get stuck into some work to back up the modelling, skinning and mapping effort.

p.s. Dr Zoidberg ... clear out your PM box.... you have no room in your inbox for extra messages.

[DrZoidberg]

Mod Dictator ... AND MODELLER....so when it comes to making decisions about how many new units we are going to have in the mod, not only do I make the decisions, but I do the work too... which makes me well qualified to decide!

We also have, in Casuir, ANOTHER modeller capable of putting units in game. This puts us in a very comfortable position when it comes to this sort of thing. I have no intention of relying on the stock units with a quick re-skin .. it just doesn't work very well. You do things like that when you have to .. and we don't have to. The unit roster for each faction is realistic in terms of workload, achievable in terms of the tools, and is going to get finished.

What we really need is for our text editors to get stuck into some work to back up the modelling, skinning and mapping effort.

p.s. Dr Zoidberg ... clear out your PM box.... you have no room in your inbox for extra messages.

The only reason I haven't started yet is because we don't have a tech-tree and haven't decided the units yet. I could get cracking anyway though.