Welcome to Warhammer MTW2

[Bwian]

Thanks to the Moderators, we now have a home of our very own here to discuss, comment and show off our eye-candy in

[Casuir]

Just public ones or private ones too?

[Meneldil]

Koul

[Herkus]

How many factions are you planning to include in beta? The warhammer world is very big, would take many years to recreate it in m2.

[Bwian]

Casuir ... so far, just the public one.

Herkus ... faction wise, I plan to do the Tomb Kings, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Empire, Bretonnia, Orcs, Elves, Chaos and Lizardmen. Others may follow.

Yes...the Warhammer world is vast, but we need ot start with the units we know we can build. Dwarves are wanted...but we can't make them until we have a tool that allows proper manipulation of the skeleton. All in good time

[Meneldil]

Yes...the Warhammer world is vast, but we need ot start with the units we know we can build. Dwarves are wanted...but we can't make them until we have a tool that allows proper manipulation of the skeleton. All in good time

And then, Chaos Dwarves will soon follow ;-)

[uanime5]

Herkus ... faction wise, I plan to do the Tomb Kings, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Empire, Bretonnia, Orcs, Elves, Chaos and Lizardmen. Others may follow.

So nine factions in total. What culture will each faction belong to (M2TW uses 6 cultures, though I haven't test if this is a hard coded maximum)? I ask only because the culture affect what the faction's general looks like (along with the apperance of buildings and agents).

[Roberts]

Great, you included my fav faction lizardmens. Looking foward to them, I guess they are one of those who will need skeleton alteration, especially for their heads, hmm maybe also a tail, if it is or will be possible to add more bones to existing default human bone structure in m2.

[Bwian]

Faction and culture differences were something I was concerned about. Some factions need a very unique look, whilst others could get away with a more homogenous kind of feel. If it is possible to add mre cultures, then I would be tempted to make each faction a 'culture' of it's own... but we are not going to rely on this being possible.

Robis... I have made lizardmen for RTW which worked well enough without extra bones. I do not expect it to be possible to make a completely new skeleton with new bones, but fully expect to be able to make working figures with what the game already provides.... done it before, and know it works

The basic nine factions are ones we know can be achieved, and made with a full enough blend of units. More factions exist, and more could be done. I would like to add Kislev, possible split Chaos into different factions too. These would be 'add on' things to come later once the core work was done.

[Tsarsies]

I love the idea for your mod. Quite a challenge set ahead of you. Good luck. I'll definatly be keeping an eye on this mod :)

[Meneldil]

The elves you're planning to include are Wood elves, right ?

[whiterussian]

real nice work this far bwain, keep it up. Best wishes. NOW BACK TO WORK

[Bwian]

Wood Elves would be good, but I don;t know whether they will make first release. Initial plans are for High Elves and Dark Elves, but there is no reason why it can't be expanded to cover the Wood Elves. It sits there with plans to seperate Chaos into independant factions of Khorne, Nurgle etc. We need to see how many factions we can accomodate on the map without overly congesting key areas, and without making the game play suffer. These things are still open for change.

[Meneldil]

So, basically, you'll be trying to cover the whole Warhammer known world, including Lustria, Dark Elves lands and Ulthuan (but without Cathay, India and Arabia) ? That's pretty ambitious. Can't wait to see a map, although it will likely won't be available before a while.

[Casuir]

Not lustria, and ulthuan and naggaroth will probably come later

[Bob the Spork]

I’m interested in two points, if you care to answer them.

Firstly, how you intend to animate a certain race, specifically goblins? For the same reasons you aren’t doing dwarfs these could be a problem, but without them it isn’t really an orc army… I mean, who heard of an orc horde without a few of the little guys?

Secondly, how do you intend to add races such as the high and dark elves, and the lizardmen, without including Ulthuan, Naggaroth and Lustria on the world map?

As an almost complete aside, a line of Hellblasters would be immense fun in RTS awesomeness… I mean… all the misfires…




Ahem, back on topic. On the topic of races...

I agree, wholeheartedly, with Empire, Brettonia, Skaven, Orcs (and maybe goblins), Tombkings and Chaos. High elves, I believe, need Ulthuan, even if it is only half on the map (like America in M2TW). I would then advise you use Kislev and Marienburg as the last factions.

The dark elves can replace pirates, appearing as enemy to all vessels that attack ships and blockade ports, but don't actually fight battles. Bandits, I would replace with beastmen, simply to represent their wide spread and randomly appearing, but also disunified, nature. This means no human bandits, but it would be a price worth paying, in my opinion.

Lizardmen (although being my favorite race, bar the orcs and goblins) I would advise you leave out. Bar the small colony on Albion, they are too far removed from the world to take a great part in it all.

Vampire Counts I would also leave out, because to be honest they don't do much. The great counts are all dead, and they no longer make any great threat to nations. Maybe make 'undead rebels' in some places, but that's it.

As other races to add, I would suggest the following:

Tilea, Estalia and Araby, to the South. Not only are they human (easy to make), but they are also big nations. Finally, though more challengingly, I would suggest the ogres, as an emergent nation that floods over the Worlds Edge Mountains. Obviously, Dwarfs would make a fine addition as well.


Anyway, you have my tuppence on it all. Hope it made you think, as I know seeing all this you've already thought of did.

[Casuir]

Whats this bout a small lizardman colony on albion?

[Bob the Spork]

After the battles of Albion, the Slaan, or maybe Slann, I forget which, altered the climate of Albion. The centre, so far, is the only bit affected, and is now like a jungle. The plants of Lustria have been taken over as well. A new temple city is being built, under the rule of a fourth generation Slaan, if my memory serves correctly. Basically, as Albion is where the Old Ones lived, and is a focus of so much 'anti-chaos power', for want of a better term, the Lizards decided they should protect it. As a result they're slowly but surely turning it into a tropical paradise, and are driving out the local humans and giants. Considering just how far north it is (comparable climate to real world Scotland, near enough), warming this place up is quite an achievement.

[Casuir]

Whats the source for this?

As for your other suggestions, Ulthuan, Naggaroth will be on the map, they're not high priority though so other areas will be done first. Lustria was omitted because it was too far from the other areas and including it would have made the map too small. There is place to put lizardmen without stretching credibility just not their main centres of power. I dont think Marienburg merits a faction though, its just one city stuck between the empire and bretonnia. personally I'd rather see the main races split up into sub-factions rather than be spread over the map.

Dark elves should certainly appear as pirates, but not exclusively. Likewise beastmen as rebels, no good reason not to have other types of rebels, a roving orc warband, a renegade necromancer, lots of possibilitys there.

Vampire counts wouldnt be a major player in campaign, think they should be in there though, in the border princes area maybe. Ogres are way to far east, even as a horde its stretching credability, they wouldnt be playable and it'd have to be a major event in the game, far better to have them in custom battle only and maybe recruitable mercs for the relevant factions. Culture is a big thing here too, we're limited to seven at the mo, not important for custom battles but its a big thing for campaigns.

[Bob the Spork]

Hmm... Difficult question. I do believe it is from White Dwarf, one of the issues that came out shortly after the conclusion of Dark Shadows. I checked Wiki, but although the fact is mentioned, there is no quoted source, which is a pity because it would have been an easy way to work it out. I think I may have to get back on you for this one. It's late and I need to sleep, but I'll try and find it for you tomorrow.

[Casuir]

Aye any stuff like that is appreciated, the main areas are well covered but info on settlements in norsca and the border regions in particular is lacking. I had 3 settlements listed in albion, think theres an army list for warmaster as well.

[DrZoidberg]

When we did the Civ3 Warhammer mod we first took what we could from the basic game, which meant the human factions, (ie Empire, Bretonia, Tilea, Estelia, Albion). Easy factions. What makes them different is their knights and ideologies. Also Albions giants. Resised humans skin as an elephant unit?!?

The next thing we did was to focus on what made the factions different and made it more extreme. In civ the major difference between races was attack-value, defence and speed. Off-course it's different of TW. Now we've got so many great new tools.

I think we should focus on defrinciating the factions untis on the battle field.

Orcs should be extremly strong and have super defence but have no moral at all. Bad artilery. Slow.

Skaven should have to rely on their artillery. All other units basicaly protect and suport them.

Undead are hard to kill, (extremly high defence) and have impecable moral, but are otherwise pretty bad. Slow and weak.

Dwarves are painfully slow and easy to out-maneuver but strong and highest defence.

I'd make elves strong and fast but extremly low in defence.

We should build from this. Making all factions units lacking in a particular stat. It'll be a bitch to balance. But should prove to be a smashing game. We can start balancing and playing the game now, way before we have the graphics and units. Not to mention the various buildings they can and cannot build. Ork cities being able to build growth boosting buildings and happiness buildings cheap, but everything amazingly expensive.

Personaly I'd put my focus on first getting this baby to fly at all. Making it pretty is phase 2.

I've also wondered about flying units. Isn't it possible to make a unit with it's lower part transparent? As if it sits on a transparent pillar? If so making a flying unit shouldn't be impossible at all.

[DrZoidberg]

We can also mess around with prices. Undead having everthing either superexpensive or dirt cheap.

Elves having everything expensive and orcs having it all for almost nothing.

[Bob the Spork]

Found it! Quoted from the latest Lizardman army book which, coincidentally, is much more of an official a source than I'd believed existed. Here it is:


"2520 The threat to Albion. Gates are opened to the island. Scar-Leader Kroq-Gar leads the first war parties to cleanse the isle of warm-bloods. Under the manipulations of Lord Mazdamundi, the climate of the isle is altered, and the start of a new jungle is formed. Work begins on the founding of the new temple-city of Konquata, Place of Resistance, in the interior of Albion."

Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen, page 9, sub title 'The Age of Recompense'.


So, as you can see, a new temple city, nice and close to the Old World. Admittedly it's in early stages, but the Lizards have a way of getting things done quickly, so no doubt it won't take long to expand.

[Bwian]

No flying units will be in the mod. Period. Sorry, but they do not work. Yes...you can move them high up in the air. Yes..you can re-write the entire animation routines ( in theory ) to make them swoop to attack ... but as far as the game is concerned, the unit is standing on the ground. Unless someone is able to re-code the game to allow the AI to react correctly to a unit like this they have no effect on the game. It's a nice idea, but impossible in this game engine.

We also have to be careful about battlefield speed. This is a function of animation routines, which we cannot change yet. It would laso mean we would have to re-manufacture EVERY animation routine to make a minor change in unit speed. It's a stat on the strat map... but it's not a stat on the battlemap. I have done this before with the animations I made for Metal Mayhem, and it took weeks....and I was avoiding doing the people anims. There are masses of those!
It may be something we can do later.... but not now. We lack the tools.

As far as flying goes... that's why I have got Casuir working on the map, and have recruited a couple of text editors! Casuir can model and texture too, so between him and me, we will continue to crank out models and pretty things. The team is being built to make sure we have enough crew to get all the other things done too

[uanime5]

When we did the Civ3 Warhammer mod we first took what we could from the basic game, which meant the human factions, (ie Empire, Bretonia, Tilea, Estelia, Albion). Easy factions. What makes them different is their knights and ideologies. Also Albions giants. Resised humans skin as an elephant unit?!?

The human units can all be different factions of the same culture. This would leave 5 other cultures for the other races.

Orcs should be extremly strong and have super defence but have no moral at all. Bad artilery. Slow.

As Bwian stated you can't change the speed so units can't be made slower. Also artillery refers to siege weapons such as catapults, not archers. High attack and defence, and low moral are easy to code.

Skaven should have to rely on their artillery. All other units basicaly protect and suport them.

By giving them lots of archers and less infantry / cavalry this is possible.

Undead are hard to kill, (extremly high defence) and have impecable moral, but are otherwise pretty bad. Slow and weak.

The undead don't need high defence to be hard to kill, you could just increase their hit point. Also you can lock their moral so they won't rout.

Dwarves are painfully slow and easy to out-maneuver but strong and highest defence.

Only strength and high defence can be coded. They could also start with better armour.

I'd make elves strong and fast but extremly low in defence.

Their defences could be low by giving them low level armour, such as padded.

We should build from this. Making all factions units lacking in a particular stat. It'll be a bitch to balance. But should prove to be a smashing game. We can start balancing and playing the game now, way before we have the graphics and units. Not to mention the various buildings they can and cannot build. Ork cities being able to build growth boosting buildings and happiness buildings cheap, but everything amazingly expensive.

Faction's don't just need their units to lack stats to be at a disadvantage. They could lack unit diversity or even a whole type of unit, start out poor, start with cities that are in revolt, have buildings / units that are expensive or take a long time to construct, have units that are prone to routing.

[Bwian]

The essence of balance is in getting the 'rock/paper/scissors' dynamic right. Every faction should have advantages and disadvantages. Success should only come by correct use of what the race has.

This can take a variety of forms, and will take time to perfect. Especially since the campaign is the key, not just the battles. Dwarves, for example, are good warriors, but they reproduce slowly. Cities and populations expand slowly, so you can't afford to waste troops in battle.

[Casuir]

Plus dwarfs are going to be at a disadvantage from the start as their cities are spread out a bit. I think guys before we get carried away with this rock/scissors/paper stuff we should remember that the units and heir characteristics are already set in stone for us, we have to accurately reproduce the dynamics of the boardgame and work around that. What you guys are sayng about high elves and skaven's totally out of whack with that for example, elves are very well armoured, their lowest troops wear breast plates and scale skirts, skaven as bwian pointed out are short on missiles troops. If we put bow heavy skaven up againt leather armoured elves it just isnt warhammer. Theres an awful lot of stuff here that needs to be balanced right, morale, kill lethality, attack and defence values are only a part of the combat dynamics. Lot of other factors involved. Theres lots of stuff we can do to balance the campaign, but the battles need to stay true to the tabletop game.

[Bwian]

Nail hit on the head:

The battles are the key.

[DrZoidberg]

With Skaven artillery I didn't mean archers. Siege engines. If Skaven can produce a cannon with lots of experience from the start they'll be deadly. The rotting cow carcas damage would be great as any of their pestilence units.

Is it possible to forbid troops from being able to run. So they can only walk. That would put a definate limit on speed.

edit: I just checked the Tomb King manual and skeletons have the same move as humans, 4. I guess they aren't slow.