Faction Thread 1: Tomb Kings

[Bwian]

These are the outline plans for this faction in terms of units. Please feel free to comment, suggest and generally say what you think! Anything obvious mising or anything not worth adding...just say why!

One caveat though ... give thought to HOW the unit could be made. I can't include things i the mod that stretch beyond the reach of the core engine, and this will put limitations on what is possible. I am assuming we will be able to ( ultimately ) scale skeletons and re-set animations at least as far as RTW could. I hope for more, but won't count chickens until they hatch !

1) Basic Warrior ( axe or bronze sword )

2) Warrior ( spear and shield )

3) Elite Warrior ( spear primary plus sword and shield )

4) Archer

5) Skeleton Light Horse ( basic warrior mounted )

6) Skeleton heavy horse ( Warrior mounted )

Each of the above would have an 'upgraded' variant with armour remnants attached

5) Tomb Guard

6) Ushabti

7) Bone Giants

8) Skull catapult

9) Tomb Swarm

General units will be made to represent the Tomb King or Hierophant. Loss of these should result in massive morale loss to represent the disolution of the force that the loss of these cause.

Problem units:
Chariots ( none in MTW2 that I can find )
Tomb Scorpion ( don't know how much skeleton bending we will be able to do )
Carrion - they are supposed to fly, and we can't do flying units properly. At best they will hover just off the ground. May look shoddy!

[Bob the Spork]

Pity about the chariots, as they're a big part of the Tomb Kings. I can't think of any in M2TW either. Other than that though, it all looks pretty damn good. Only extra I can think of are ballista type weapons. They aren't in Warhammer Fantasy, but the Tomb Kings had them in Warmaster, and it would be good to have a bolt thrower type weapon as well as a catapult. I think they were called Bone Throwers (good pun, no?), but I'm not entirely sure.

[Bwian]

It would be easy enough to build a ballista decorated light the Skull Catapults. Use bones in the construction and decorate with skulls. Bone Thrower ... if they DIDN'T have one called that, they should have! Can you post any relevant details you have from the sourceworks to flesh ( sorry ) that out

[Bob the Spork]

From http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/WATomb.pdf

"Bone Thrower: As with the larger artillery pieces the undead build smaller bolt throwing machines and for the same reasons their chief material is bone. These machines are based upon those once used by the living armies of the Kings and long since crumbled to dust."

Basically, they are literally a bolt version of a Skull Catapult. Also made of bone, also fire bone, also crewed by skeletons. Act as a normal bolt thrower/ballista in every way. Don't think they'd be able to use fire ammo though, for the obvious reason that bones don't burn too well.

[Bwian]

Thanks Bob.

I will add that to the list. I think it gives them quite a nicely rounded unit list with that there. The Bone Thrower would be a light siege weapon with mainly anti-personnel effects. The Skull Catapult would then sit more like a heavy catapult/ Trebuchet kind of effectiveness.

I am still trying to figure out if a chariot can be built based on what we have, or if there is some way to mock one up based on what we have. If scaling is achieved for skeletons, we could probably butcher the elephant skeleton and make something...only the wheels would not move. Use the legs for horse part, and make the mesh extend back to carry the crew. Wheel turning would be a problem though..... Much pondering needed.

[uanime5]

1) Basic Warrior ( axe or bronze sword )
2) Warrior ( spear and shield )
3) Elite Warrior ( spear primary plus sword and shield )

In M2TW most basic units have spears because they're easy to use, while the more advanced warriors have swords and axes, which require more training. Though if these are the weapons they have in Warhammer its probably best to stick with the original.

Also the castle barrack can have up to 6 levels, while the town barracks can have 5 so there is room to add more units, eg skeletal warrior and armoured skeletal warrior. Also which units are going to be trained in a city and which in a castle.

4) Archer

The archery range can have up to 4 levels, so you can have more types archers. Also will they have any long range archers?

5) Skeleton Light Horse ( basic warrior mounted )
6) Skeleton heavy horse ( Warrior mounted )

You can have up to 5 levels of stables so you can have more horses. If you're not going to have a lot of archers you may want to add cavalry archers.


Unless you are going to reduce the number of tech tree levels you will need more units (especially since Tomb Kings are meant to have verstile armies, since they only have expensive, weak units). For example in M2TW Egypt has 9 infantry units (including militia 3), 7 archery units (including 2 gunpowder and 1 militia), and 8 cavalry units (including 1 horse archer and 1 camel archer).

If these are the units that are prodiced in castles then will skeletal militia be produced in cities?


Also when I made skeletal units for my Mythology mod I removed any penalties associated with temperature (the dead do not care about heat) and edited the units so they would not route (the dead have no fear of death). Incorporating this may be a good idea.

5) Tomb Guard

They seem to function like the general's bodyguard, so they could act like this (it's possible to have the general look different from his soldiers). Though neither they, nor the Tomb Kings are shown riding a horse.

6) Ushabti
7) Bone Giants

Their size makes them difficult to create. Though smaller versions are possible.

8) Skull catapult

Several factions in M2TW have catapults, such as Denmark, so this is no problem.

9) Tomb Swarm

This unit's shape and movement makes it hard to create (it looks and moves like a puddle of insects).

General units will be made to represent the Tomb King or Hierophant. Loss of these should result in massive morale loss to represent the disolution of the force that the loss of these cause.

Both the Hierophant, Tomb King, and Tomb Princes are good units for generals. However their relationships to each other makes it difficult to determine who should do what. Tomb Kings rule a Tomb King Faction, Tomb Princes are the sons, and Hierophants (High Liche Priests) are needed to maintain the armies.

If there were several Tomb King factions, each could be lead by their own Tomb King with the 1st Tomb Prince (to distinguish him from the other Tomb Princes) acting as the Faction Heir. The Hierophants could be a recruitable general unit that does not belong to the Tomb King's family.

Thess websites are good for reference.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/tombkin...ature-gallery/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_Kings

[Bob the Spork]

In my opinion the tomb kings shouldn’t have much of a tech tree. After all, none of their warriors are ‘trained’ as such. There could be workshops for the production of siege engines, and basic buildings, basically ‘armouries’, which allow progressive sets on units. For example, with the first the worst units can be made, to represent low production capability, working up until you can make fine armour and weapons for units like Tomb Guard and Ushabti.

After all, it isn’t as if they’re advancing. They died millennia ago!

As for the chariot idea of stretching an elephant… That made me laugh. Funny image of a stretched elephant running about.

[Meneldil]

Well, AFAIK, Tombs Kings draft their troops from fallen soldiers who were supposed to be buried with their lords.

If that's so, getting more advanced units would be simulated by excavating more part of Tombs king's burial complexes.

They could start out with a simple Pyramid, and find (ie. build) whole burried dead-cities.


As for the list itself, I think you should stay as fluffy as possible and get ride of units that aren't in the TT game (either Warhammer or Warmaster).
Tomb Kings have blank Warriors and Mounted Warriors, I see no need to add basic, normal and elite warrior (furthermore, they'll get tomb guards and things like that).
I'd rather see them with only Mounted warriors, warriors with spears, warriors with swords/axes, and warriors with bows.

All these guys were former veteran and hardened warriors, and as such, they were "elite". I don't see any reason* some would be more elite than other now.

*other than gameplay-wise, but even so, I'd prefer trully different armies than all factions with "Light Spearmen, Spearmen, Heavy Spearmen" as their basic units.

And yeah, the lack of chariots is quite a shame. The tomb kings' ones are great.

[uanime5]

In that case perhaps the Tomb Kings should be able to recruit all almost all units from the start but in very small numbers, the numbers of each unit allowed would increase as the settlement grew. Weapon / armour upgrades could be upgraded when the barracks is upgraded.

[Casuir]

MTW2 is an upgraded version of the rome engine, I dont see why chariots shouldnt be possible in it, theres other stuff in there left over from rome that isnt used.

[Goncalou]

If u guys still havent figured out how the tomb kings will be able to get better units here's a suggestion: The tomb king player should need to build heirophant palaces, ya no since the heirophant summon and maintain the army. So they'll research new summoning spells there, allowing them to summon and maintain more soldiers. I think its a good idea tell me what u think.

[Caradrayan]

I like the idea of a simple tech tree, very cheap troops, very minimal economy. I suggest trade should be near zero, farms should be non-existant, and indeed, the main income should be mines. This has the advantage of making the faction very predictable. Your income will not vary depending on harvest or trade blockades. It will roll in so long as you have the mines.

I also like the idea of a simple tech tree. These troops are all already there, they died millenia ago.

Edit: Another thought has occurred to me.

How will Tomb King succession work? More importantly, what could possibly increase the Tomb King family tree? I think this might have to be fudged a bit for the mod. Maybe they recruit new Tomb Princes for the empire?

[Slanted]

Maybe you could have it as new tomb princes are awakening from their long lumber.

[Goncalou]

Salnted good idea, for the coming of age type message it should be "One of the many Tomb Princes has at last awakened from his long rest, he may prove a worthy heir if our true lord ever dies." something like that. And nobody has yet commented on my suggestion please tell me if it's good or bad, PLEASE!!!