MTW Pocket Mod: Units, Buildings and Unit Stats

[Martok]

(split from post in the other thread)

I was messing with the unit rosters today, removing redundant units (I'm no where near done as yet). I have renamed Chivalric Sergeants and Vanilla Square Shield Spearmen to "Sergeants". They are now effectively Sergeants for the three eras. The first have been given a +1 morale bonus as they were severely lacking previously. The others are unchanged for now. As to the faction association:

[Early - Catholic Square Shield Spearmen] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Danes, Hungarians and Poles.

[High - Feudal] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Italians

[Late - Chivalric] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Italians

Armoured Spearmen are renamed simply Spearmen and are Russian/Novgorod High/Late only.

[Early - Round Shield] Spearmen (same stats as Early Sergeants): Hungarians and Poles

[Muslim - Square Shield*] Spearmen (same stats as Early Sergeants): Moors/Turks Early only.

*broken off into a separate unit

In the Early era the Danes have their own Spearmen, namely Viking Carls (originally thralls), so they don't need the Early Sergeants nor the Round Shield Spearmen.

The Egyptians have the Nubians in all eras, so don't need the Muslim Spearmen.

The Rus and Novgorod have the Rus Spearmen in Early.

So that does it, for now, for the spear units. The Byzantine have their own Kontaratoi, the Italians have Italian Infantry for High and Late, the Turks Saracens from high onwards and the Moors al-Muwahhidun Infantry ("Almohad" Infantry) for High/Late. So I think I have that pretty well covered. This is all based on an idea posted by YourLordandConqueror.

Sounds good, Cambyses.

The next stage is the Militias, then it's onto the training dependency buildings. Nearly all of those need changing, and I mean logical changes.

You mean you're going to change them from the Town Watch/Town Watch tech line? What did you have in mind instead?

[caravel]

Sounds good, Cambyses.


You mean you're going to change them from the Town Watch/Town Watch tech line? What did you have in mind instead?

Well so far we have a line of militia buildings that do nothing apart from to provide provincial happiness bonuses, and turn out some mediocre units. I have my doubts about Pikemen and Halberdiers being "Militias" as such, I also have my doubts about the militia being a unit training building at all, they certainly shouldn't be the sole dependency of any unit (but I'm not going to cover that as yet). It is my opinion that the militia buildings should somehow effect income and perhaps bestow a title at level 4, also perhaps providing an income as Noir suggested to represent the lessened crime rate, order and their capacity as fire fighters. This would make them more valuable to, and useable by the muslims and orthodox.

I would be interested in ideas (and sources) as to what constituted a "militia" in Feudal Europe and what type of arms and equipment were used. I'm not entirely convinced by the urban militiaman / militia sergeant with the 'tommy' helmet and pole axe. From what I've read of militias they were variously armed, but usually swordsmen in the style of the FMAA.

[ULC]

Strange idea, but what if you were to restrict the UM/MS to the Italians, and possibly the Byzantines? Use the Islamic version of the UM/MS as the basis for another unit type, Almohad only? Just a suggestion.

[caravel]

Strange idea, but what if you were to restrict the UM/MS to the Italians, and possibly the Byzantines? Use the Islamic version of the UM/MS as the basis for another unit type, Almohad only? Just a suggestion.

I'd always assumed that the wide brimmed helmets were used in the warmer climes to keep the sun off? With regard to the Byzantine, the militias look unsuited due to the style of weapon and gear which has more of a Frankish or western appearance. To me their equipment looks like it is adapted for use in the holy land. I was thinking Outremer troops? It may be that they could be infantry recruited by the Catholics, or some of the Catholics, but only in Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine?

The Muslim Militia Sergeants and Urban Militia are currently Almohad only. These would probably have to be split off and or removed altogether. I'm not so sure what they are supposed to represent, perhaps Andalusian troops? I need more info on this before I can do any more.

[The Unknown Guy]

One thing I´m curious about is the weaponry used by Spanish muslims. It occured to me that maybe they purchased most of their weapons from the Christian kingdoms. I´m making a google search on it.

[Martok]

Thread moved from the Main Hall per request.

[caravel]

One thing I´m curious about is the weaponry used by Spanish muslims. It occured to me that maybe they purchased most of their weapons from the Christian kingdoms. I´m making a google search on it.

I do know that the Taifa kingdoms had armour and weapons more like the Christian kingdoms, than the Moors, but I'm not sure of the source.

[ULC]

I thought up a few ideas last night...

1) What if you were to add a "disloyalty" bonus to military buildings, and a "loyalty" bonus to ecomic buildings. This may cause the AI to do one of two things: either increase its garrison, or build up it's economy. It may also slow down the computer in it's tech advancment, so it will need some testing.

2) Remove the militia building line entirely. Or better yet, rename them so they represent military training centers. They could hold all the morale, valour and discipline upgrades. I have a few name ideas, but I'd prefer to hear about you think.

3) Add titles to "master" rank buildings. You could have "Master of the Emperor's Citadel" or "Warden of the xyz".

[caravel]

I thought up a few ideas last night...

1) What if you were to add a "disloyalty" bonus to military buildings, and a "loyalty" bonus to ecomic buildings. This may cause the AI to do one of two things: either increase its garrison, or build up it's economy. It may also slow down the computer in it's tech advancment, so it will need some testing.

This is a difficult one, as the AI often goes military mad, especially in valour bonus regions, and could end up with a province revolting because they built a lot of military buildings first and not a lot else. The historical/real life relativity is also an issue. Let's suppose that you build an impressive new town swordsmith in Normandy. I doubt the populace would be effected by it. If you had converted to paganism and built a sacrificial shrine there, they might be annoyed, but worried by new military buildings? I'd say not. I would have fought that a stronger military presence would help to cow the population?

2) Remove the militia building line entirely. Or better yet, rename them so they represent military training centers. They could hold all the morale, valour and discipline upgrades. I have a few name ideas, but I'd prefer to hear about you think.

Barracks? I had thought about this but wasn't sure about it's historicalness in a feudal society. For the Byzantine yes, but I'm not sure about the others. Still it's a good idea. Perhaps the Militia buildings could be renamed as e.g. "Barracks", "Town Barracks", "Barracks of the Citadel" and "Barracks of the Fortress" or something similar. These would then be added as the main training facilities for almost all troops such as Sergeants, men at Arms Mounted Sergeants etc. The valour bonus could be added to the highest level barracks and not to the weapons makers. This would represent better training as opposed to better weapons. Certain units such as Knights, Vikings and Highland Clansmen would not come from the barracks, but perhaps the muster field from VI could be added as a lower level barracks than the current town watch? This would depend on the fort only and allow the training of units such as clansmen. Note that this wouldn't replace a units other dependencies (in particular the proposed specific dependencies that I will be working on soon) it would instead add to these. A foot unit armed with a basic sword and shield would still need at least a swordsmith and armourer for example.

3) Add titles to "master" rank buildings. You could have "Master of the Emperor's Citadel" or "Warden of the xyz".

I'm not so sure about that, for me a Master Spearmaker would give someone the title "Master Spearmaker".

This may work for the highest level Militia Building and the Royal Court buildings though (remember the title to the highest level Royal Court is technically the title to the province anyway, so I'm thinking about lesser titles (the Duke's right hand man for example?)). We just need to come up with some historical titles.

[Belisario]

During the period covered by MTW "urban militias" were the main source of infantry troops for the Castilian-Leonese rulers (and I suspect the same in Aragon, Catalonia, Navarre and Portugal). These infantrymen provided by the "concejos" (town council) were called "peones" in the historical sources and their terms of service were regulated by the "fueros" (code of laws) of each city. Their weaponry included a varied set of weapons such as spears, maces, poleaxes, axes... The concejos also provided important contingents of cavalrymen, known as "caballeros villanos" (villager or commoner cavalrymen). In the context of the frontier warfare social promotion was common, so a "peón" could became a "caballero villano" if he was able of maintain war horse and good arms. Some "caballeros villanos" were influential figures in the social and political life of the "concejos", and they could became members of the lesser nobility ("infanzones") after a successful career.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

May I suggest that for the highest level of the Millita Line of buildings, or perhaps even lower at say level three or two, we could have a "Sheriff of x" Provincial Title for Catholic factions. Perhaps providing a small loyalty and a dread bonus to represent the fear he will instil upon criminals and brigands.

[caravel]

That is actually a good idea, but it would have to be localised for different factions, otherwise we would have a Turkish Sheriff!

Once I get some ideas together for some equivalent titles for other factions I'll definitely add the sheriff title though.

[ULC]

Originally Posted by Cambyses II

This is a difficult one, as the AI often goes military mad, especially in valour bonus regions, and could end up with a province revolting because they built a lot of military buildings first and not a lot else. The historical/real life relativity is also an issue. Let's suppose that you build an impressive new town swordsmith in Normandy. I doubt the populace would be effected by it. If you had converted to paganism and built a sacrificial shrine there, they might be annoyed, but worried by new military buildings? I'd say not. I would have fought that a stronger military presence would help to cow the population?

Thye idea behind it was to curve the AI's tendency to go for military buildings and to appeal to happiness buildings. By making "military" buildings have a negative loyalty bonus and giving economic buildings a positive loyalty bonus, the AI MIGHT start caring about it's economy as much as the player does. Needs testing though.

Originally Posted by Cambyses II


Barracks? I had thought about this but wasn't sure about it's historicalness in a feudal society. For the Byzantine yes, but I'm not sure about the others. Still it's a good idea. Perhaps the Militia buildings could be renamed as e.g. "Barracks", "Town Barracks", "Barracks of the Citadel" and "Barracks of the Fortress" or something similar. These would then be added as the main training facilities for almost all troops such as Sergeants, men at Arms Mounted Sergeants etc. The valour bonus could be added to the highest level barracks and not to the weapons makers. This would represent better training as opposed to better weapons. Certain units such as Knights, Vikings and Highland Clansmen would not come from the barracks, but perhaps the muster field from VI could be added as a lower level barracks than the current town watch? This would depend on the fort only and allow the training of units such as clansmen. Note that this wouldn't replace a units other dependencies (in particular the proposed specific dependencies that I will be working on soon) it would instead add to these. A foot unit armed with a basic sword and shield would still need at least a swordsmith and armourer for example.

You could tie them into the higher levels (Castle, Citadel, Fortress) for more historical accuracy. The muster field could be relageted to the Fort and/or Keep. Thus could also be the dependency for the Military Academy if we go this route. An idea on the bonuses could be: +1 morale for first level, +2 for second, +1 valor for third, and +2 valor or +1 valor and +2 morale for the final level. For the MA, we could have the same bonuses as the final building, but with the discipline bonus also.

Originally Posted by Cambyses II

I'm not so sure about that, for me a Master Spearmaker would give someone the title "Master Spearmaker".

This may work for the highest level Militia Building and the Royal Court buildings though (remember the title to the highest level Royal Court is technically the title to the province anyway, so I'm thinking about lesser titles (the Duke's right hand man for example?)). We just need to come up with some historical titles.

Errr... a bit of miscommunication there, sorry about that. What I meant was that buildings such as the Military Academy, the University, Surgeons ???? could have thier own titles. If it's possible to set multiple buildings for a single title, then we could also have all the "smith" buildings as a requirement for a title such as "Lord's Master at Arms" or "Lord's Master Smith", etc.

[caravel]

Thye idea behind it was to curve the AI's tendency to go for military buildings and to appeal to happiness buildings. By making "military" buildings have a negative loyalty bonus and giving economic buildings a positive loyalty bonus, the AI MIGHT start caring about it's economy as much as the player does. Needs testing though.

I don't think the AI can take happiness bonuses into account, that is that it doesn't seem to know the bonus exists, so sadly that wouldn't really effect the AI's approach to building. The only real way to make the AI want to build something is to change the build influences or give it a good income. I have found that the AI goes mad for the lev1_income or cathedral income buildings. The forester for example is extremely attractive to the AI and it will try to build those, and upgrades, before anything else. Their building influences are only the same as mines so it seems that it is the large income that attracts the AI above all else, except for maybe the valour bonus regions.

You could tie them into the higher levels (Castle, Citadel, Fortress) for more historical accuracy. The muster field could be relageted to the Fort and/or Keep. Thus could also be the dependency for the Military Academy if we go this route. An idea on the bonuses could be: +1 morale for first level, +2 for second, +1 valor for third, and +2 valor or +1 valor and +2 morale for the final level. For the MA, we could have the same bonuses as the final building, but with the discipline bonus also.

The problem with tying the barracks and military buildings into the higher level citadel/fortress tech tree is that it take the AI an age to tech up and it often bankrupts itself doing so. Under the newer system base level and workshop level depend on the keep and guild and master level depend on the castle. I feel that this is enough and that later castles should be exceptional fortifications and as dependencies for the cathedrals, grand mosques, and administration buildings.

Errr... a bit of miscommunication there, sorry about that. What I meant was that buildings such as the Military Academy, the University, Surgeons ???? could have thier own titles. If it's possible to set multiple buildings for a single title, then we could also have all the "smith" buildings as a requirement for a title such as "Lord's Master at Arms" or "Lord's Master Smith", etc.

That is an idea, certainly for the Military Academy, this should give a decent title but not command stars. I am against giving command stars because the AI fails to use them correctly. For example it will give a title that gives 1 command star to a 0 command general sitting in a fort in a backwater province, instead of using it to top up the command of a four star general that is leading an army stack near the front line. The player can take advantage whereas the AI cannot.

I feel that titles should give loyalty, piety, dread and acumen only and not increase command, a stat that is only effective on the battlefield and which can only be improved through successful campaigning, not by being given a title. Yes the same can be said for the other stats, but they are not battlefield stats.

With regard to the titles, the problem is that a skilled Swordsmith would a) never be risked on the battlefield and b) would generally be a, probably aged, craftsmen and not a soldier. I think that nobility or military titles are needed and only for the Military Academy, highest level barracks and perhaps some of the royal court buildings?

[ULC]

What about for The Brothel/Tavern? An actual spymaster anyone?

[barocca]

...I feel that titles should give loyalty, piety, dread and acumen only and not increase command...

what about morale?
possibly mens morale would be lifted knowing their general is lord of this or that?

B.

[The Unknown Guy]

For what I understand the problem is not so much of realism as of the computer being able to use it. AKA: Playing Byzantium, if you pick a Prononai Kavalliori Toxotai, and make him Lord of Trebizond and Commander of the Fleet, you have a four-stars commander ex nihilo, which is the reasonable thing to do given the circumstances.
However, the computer will just grant the titles to whom it fancies best, and thus will leave the Admiral sitting in the backwaters, and make Lord of Trebizond a high acumen urban militia, or something after that fashion.

[caravel]

what about morale?
possibly mens morale would be lifted knowing their general is lord of this or that?

B.

Very true and a good idea, adding titles would be great, but I must admit I'm stumped as to how to go about it. I know how to change the titles for provinces but not for buildings.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Sorry Cambyses, but I'm just going to interrupt the flow of dissussion to make a small suggestion regarding units post-1205.

It's nothing major, however, it seems that the earlier troop types go completely out of fashion, cannot be re-trained or trained again. I'm sorry, yet I confess that I find it a little bit irritating. So, to solve this, may I suggest that post-1205, the old starting units still exist as a cheaper alternative that can still be trained and re-trained. However they instead go out-of-date in the Late Era, representing the out-dating of the equipment that these older units used, leaving the player with the later Chivalric troops only.

Apologies for the hijack.

[caravel]

The version you're playing, 1.0.6, has Feudal Men at arms and Chivalric Sergeants as Early and High/Late eras respectively. The reason I have made these units go out of fashion is because previously there was a lot of redundancy in that area. I have treated Feudal Sergeants and Chivalric Sergeants in the same way. 1.0.7 will take this a step further and add three eras to the catholic Spear units. Regular Square shield Spearmen will receive a 1 point valour bonus and will be renamed "Sergeants". They will be early era only. Feudal Sergeants will be renamed "Sergeants" and will be high era only, and Chivalric Sergeants also renamed "Sergeants" and Late era only.

This will give three levels of Catholic Spearmen, easier for the AI to deal with to give more balanced rosters. The annoyance will be when you have a good general leading an early Men at Arms or Sergeants unit that cannot be retrained in the high era, but what you have to remember is that the AI in a similar situation cannot retrain units anyway, whether they're out of fashion or not.

This is something that you will get used to in time. The old system of preserving the old unit types into the next era doesn't work. The AI will still keep training the inferior units and will not be able to compete. Similarly the Turks can only train the basic Spearmen until the high era when those are phased out and Anatolian Infantry are phased in. The Almoravids similarly only train basic spearmen until high, when al-Muwahhidun Infantry become available and the basic spearmen are phased out. The player will still be able to take advantage and retrain their units before the era changes over.

[Noir]

Assuming that a satisfactory level of balance with this arrangement in faction roster and faction roster flow (over time) can be achieved, i find Omanes' idea good.

It's more easy i guess for balance purposes to completely discontinue rosters from era to era - however an arrangement of the form Omanes is proposing would make for smooth transition in tactics/style of tactics from era to era and thus a more elegant game overall IMO.

Many Thanks

Noir

*Sorry Cambyses II, when i started composing the present post you hadn't replied yet - post now (almost) irrelevant*

[caravel]

The problem with the idea is that to make FMAA become cheaper they would need to be added again as a duplicate unit. This would mean that the old unit would still not be retrainable. Otherwise I'd support the idea of a "grace period" wholeheartedly.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Sorry Cambyses, I should have been more clear about that, apologies. I meant that they would be cheaper as in they could cost less than the more elite and prestigious Chivalric troops - not generally cheaper overall. However, may I suggest that FMAA could still be re-trainable, but they upgrade to the next level when this occurs - quite like Royal Knights at current.

BTW, I'm sorry to trouble you again, but I think that I've noticed a small bug. Peculiarly, Chivalric Sargents have Poor Morale unlike their predecessors who have Average Morale. I'm very sorry if it's deliberate. Hope this helps, cheers!

[caravel]

Sorry Cambyses, I should have been more clear about that, apologies. I meant that they would be cheaper as in they could cost less than the more elite and prestigious Chivalric troops - not generally cheaper overall. However, may I suggest that FMAA could still be re-trainable, but they upgrade to the next level when this occurs - quite like Royal Knights at current.

Well they already cost significantly less to train and less to support.

BTW, I'm sorry to trouble you again, but I think that I've noticed a small bug. Peculiarly, Chivalric Sargents have Poor Morale unlike their predecessors who have Average Morale. I'm very sorry if it's deliberate. Hope this helps, cheers!

CS have lower morale than FS, those are the stats from Vanilla MTW - not a bug. I believe that the morale of CS was lowered due to them having more armour and so relying on a better general to up their valour, whereas FS are relying more on their own bravery not having as much armour as CS.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I would have thought that their morale would be higher than their earlier version due to them having more confidence in the might of their better arms and improved, tougher and more re-enforced armour. May I suggest that their morale be increased to a higher level - perhaps simply normal morale, similar to that of their predecessors. I apologies for making so many suggestions, yet I find that, since they have lower morale, that it makes for a few nasty instant-rout battles - since they are often the main force and backbone of my front-line fighting armies. I also feel the same about the trained Byzantine Infantry - I find it quite odd that their morale is quite low even though they are a reasonably good fighting force otherwise. Since their forces are often the mainline of the almighty Byzantine military machine, also often resulting in a much higher battle speed, may I also suggest an increase in their morale to a higher level. May I suggest "Good Morale" would be a better level for them due to their good training and larger amounts of discipline than most units. Thanks!

BTW, didn't somebody mention something about transforming the Militia line of buildings into a barracks for the Byzantines. May I suggest that, if you were to accept this idea, that this could be the pre-requirement for all of the higher quality Byzantine Units that would be historically trained and disciplined units such as Byzantine Infantry or those Royal Guard Axemen type troops. Perhaps units that require the barracks line could have slightly better statistics, but be a little bit more expensive in terms of both training costs and upkeep costs. I'm not too sure, but perhaps this could keep the Byzantine military machine from becoming too powerful due to the higher upkeep costs.

[caravel]

I would have thought that their morale would be higher than their earlier version due to them having more confidence in the might of their better arms and improved, tougher and more re-enforced armour. May I suggest that their morale be increased to a higher level - perhaps simply normal morale, similar to that of their predecessors. I apologies for making so many suggestions, yet I find that, since they have lower morale, that it makes for a few nasty instant-rout battles - since they are often the main force and backbone of my front-line fighting armies. I also feel the same about the trained Byzantine Infantry - I find it quite odd that their morale is quite low even though they are a reasonably good fighting force otherwise. Since their forces are often the mainline of the almighty Byzantine military machine, also often resulting in a much higher battle speed, may I also suggest an increase in their morale to a higher level. May I suggest "Good Morale" would be a better level for them due to their good training and larger amounts of discipline than most units. Thanks!

The morale decrease is in the name of game balance. Basically Feudal Sergeants can expect to die quickly when under fire or attacked by sword infantry due to their lower armour, so they get a +2 point morale bonus to make up for this. Chivalric Sergeants have this bonus removed due to their much better better armour and defence stats and slightly better melee. Personally I think they're balanced enough as is. When it comes to Byzantine Infantry I both agree and disagree with your points. Byzantine Infantry are an inferior version of FMAA. The main difference is that BI are disciplined. They should perhaps have higher morale, but the problem with this, is the inbuilt Byzantine faction leader's starting +2 influence and +1 command bonus. This gives the Byzantine much better general over all and so the morale deficiency is not so much of an issue. Also the morale bonuses can have the nasty effect of producing killer unroutable lunatics. With the morale bonuses from churches etc, valour bonuses from the general and master buildings, it can get a bit over the top. This is why we have to be cautious when adding morale bonuses. For weaker units yes, and for flankers such as Ghazi, suicidal morale is a vital part of their makeup.

BTW, didn't somebody mention something about transforming the Militia line of buildings into a barracks for the Byzantines. May I suggest that, if you were to accept this idea, that this could be the pre-requirement for all of the higher quality Byzantine Units that would be historically trained and disciplined units such as Byzantine Infantry or those Royal Guard Axemen type troops. Perhaps units that require the barracks line could have slightly better statistics, but be a little bit more expensive in terms of both training costs and upkeep costs. I'm not too sure, but perhaps this could keep the Byzantine military machine from becoming too powerful due to the higher upkeep costs.

Yes this is all in the pipeline. I am going to add the muster field from VI to the base level of the town watch line of the tech tree to create 5 levels of barracks. The first will be bound to the fort, the next two to the keep and the last two to the castle. All of these will form the dependencies for most units (the training facilities). They will also provide the valour bonus at master Level, instead of the weaponsmith. (valour should come from exceptional training not an exceptional bit of equipment). The weaponsmiths will become the necessary equipment makers for all units. They will also produce a small income, Armourers and Swordsmiths producing the most, with blacksmiths, spearmakers and bowyers producing somewhat less.

[caravel]

A quick update. After spending an age trying to find that bug yesterday, I finally got something done. I have decided to rename the Urban Militia and Militia Sergeants as Outremer Militia, the first being the early period version and the second being the late. They can now only be trained by the catholics in the crusader states. Both depend on nothing but the first town watch, for now, but this may change when the dependencies are re-done (there will be a thread on this at some point). This naming is by no means final but the removal of their general availability is.

Suggestions for the Moorish appearance muslim UM and MS welcome. They, if used at all, will be divided into separate units. Both are identical info pics, except for the pose, and that the MS version has a few feathers in his cap.

[ULC]

Originally Posted by Cambyses II
A quick update. After spending an age trying to find that bug yesterday, I finally got something done. I have decided to rename the Urban Militia and Militia Sergeants as Outremer Militia, the first being the early period version and the second being the late. They can now only be trained by the catholics in the crusader states. Both depend on nothing but the first town watch, for now, but this may change when the dependencies are re-done (there will be a thread on this at some point). This naming is by no means final but the removal of their general availability is.

Have their stats changed? Are the UM available in the High Era, when they'll get the most use?

Originally Posted by Cambyses II
Suggestions for the Moorish appearance muslim UM and MS welcome. They, if used at all, will be divided into separate units. Both are identical info pics, except for the pose, and that the MS version has a few feathers in his cap.

They cold be the Moorish version of Axemen. More specifically so, they could be for the Tiafa kingdoms, considering thier adoption of christian arms. Then the actual Almohads could have the Ghazis and other muslim fanatics, factoring in accuracy, that would suit them. Dunno, you have the final say.

I don't know if this is the place to put this, but as of right now my posting may become very erratic. I took a small vacation only to come back and find myself robbed. Not the most pleasant experiance I can tell you. Right now I am using a library computer.

[caravel]

Have their stats changed? Are the UM available in the High Era, when they'll get the most use?

Stats, unchanged, UM are early only MS are the high/late equivalent. It will be a kind of upgrade, as I don't see the need for two units that perform the same function.

UM:
c4 a2 d-1 a1 m0

MS:
c4 a2 d3 a3 m0

The difference is only in the defence, and the armour.

They cold be the Moorish version of Axemen. More specifically so, they could be for the Tiafa kingdoms, considering thier adoption of christian arms. Then the actual Almohads could have the Ghazis and other muslim fanatics, factoring in accuracy, that would suit them. Dunno, you have the final say.

They would be Taifa / al-Andalus units. We already have Andalusian Infantry (formerly AUM) so perhaps Andalusian Militia? Early and High/Late versions equal to the Early and High/Late Outremer Militias?

I don't know if this is the place to put this, but as of right now my posting may become very erratic. I took a small vacation only to come back and find myself robbed. Not the most pleasant experiance I can tell you. Right now I am using a library computer.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, and you have my deepest sympathies. I've been a victim I've crime myself, only last year when I was beaten up and robbed in the street so I can sympathise with you. I hope you can get everything back to normal and recover quickly. Your presence will also be sorely missed here if you are posting less.

Hoping that the "craven whore's sons" are brought to justice.

Best regards

Cambyses II

[ULC]

Thanks for your sympathies Cambyses II. I hope to get back on the ball with this very soon.