MTW/VI Vs MTW2

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

And again, pure number of player.... the record i personal saw was as i hold my tourney, 326 on peak. We should get real, u need 50.000 or 100.000 player to make a it interesting for online play.

Even with a factor of 2x we could end with maybe 1000 or 2000 player online.
I dunno at what point it would become interesting for CA/SEGA, but even 5000 would be too less.

But there was never a try to motivate 50k players. They never supported the MP mode right. 50000 players will play the game online only, if it is worth to get played. WC3, Starcraft ... strategy games, that massive played online, because they are supported and interesting. Look at the MTW2 lobby. No features, lags, inbalance... Sure, that nobody is interested in playing that game. And STW and MTW 1 came out in a time, where MP was not so popular.

[Stig]

You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?

There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Well you can't for the simple fact that with RTW CA choose for a different engine, that didn't allow the same things as MTW.

That's why we call it different engine.

then why is everyone posting here then?

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?

There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.

You cannot make profit with nothing. You need a good product to make profit. If you don't care for it e.g. MTW2 MP, you will not get new customers. And the MTW2 MP exists only because a marketing boss said, "I want that we can write MP on the DVD case!"

Really interesting would be the compare RTW vs MTW2 MP

[TosaInu]

Millions like it, Puzz3D doesn't like it.

but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP

Is it millions or 1,000?

[Stig]

Is it millions or 1,000?

Je weet heel goed wat ik bedoel

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Je weet heel goed wat ik bedoel

and how about you translate that into English?

[Mars]

You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?

There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.

Exactly! I repeat it again.

This game simply doesnt have the drive to make 50.000 player or more playing it online! This game isnt designed for this task!

They dumbed it down every version and still it is too complex to play the battles online and also on the other hand, it isnt enought to make it interesting to play.
People like different stuff.


TW is in his basics the same game like it was 7 years ago, while other games improved in style, ideas and fun, the TW kind of games kept same, the only thing what got imrpoved is grafix. But today every company did understand that longtime fun isnt based on grafix only.


Mars


Edit:

It is so tiresome to see the people repeat the same phrases over and over again. CA does the best they can do from a bussiness POV. MP never ever will give them enought player to make it worth to invest a lot of time and cash!

And how many realyl care here? 10 or 20?
How many did vote that they even tried the online game?

I mean, concerning ur understanding, there should be a lot more who at least tried the game once.

U see the point?

[Orda Khan]

Kocmoc,
You have raised some very valid points and I think everyone would agree with the sentiment, MP never has been a major concern or part of the TW series. Still there is no getting away from the fact that MP has deteriorated and I think all that anyone wanted was for it to at least remain constant. Certain things have been dumbed down as you say and whereas CA may not think it worthwhile investing too much into MP, on the same note, why would they make it worse?
I see your point about the 10 or 20 players but I am sure there are many more who do not even visit these boards, just as it is with SP

.....Orda

[Stig]

and how about you translate that into English?

Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.

[TosaInu]

Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.

I think it's the MP forum and the topic is MTW/VI Vs MTW2?

I repeat the question: Is it millions or 1,000?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I think it's the MP forum and the topic is MTW/VI Vs MTW2?

I repeat the question: Is it millions or 1,000?

I say 1,000?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.

But the rest of us who do not speak or understand Dutch cannot comprehend what you posted, your friendly neighborhood MP forum moderator included. That is a rude attitude to take in a forum peopled with multi-national participants with different language skills. Especially when someone asks for clarification. What's the big secret?

[Stig]

None, let Tosa read my posts.
I speak of a million people playing MTW2 and 1000 MP.

That was clear, and that wasn't the same Tosa as the on posting in the TYOLT

[Hosakawa Tito]

Ahhh, no secrets then. You just choose to be rude to the rest of us. Hopefully, after I translate this, I won't find anything objectionable enough to break forum rules.

[Stig]

What in my Dutch post? I simply told him he knew very well what I meant (unless he didn't read my posts)

[Orda Khan]

Mae Hosakawa Tito wedi gofyn i chi i siarad yn saesneg er mewn i bawb cael ddeall. Pam cario ymlaen yn y ffordd yma?

New forum rules.....let's all speak our mother tongue!!

[Hosakawa Tito]

What in my Dutch post? I simply told him he knew very well what I meant (unless he didn't read my posts)

Thank you, that's all I asked for so I can moderate this forum. I don't know if Tosa read your last post or not.

@ Orda Khan - Thanks to my handy dandy Welsh to English translation website (I took an educated guess it was Welsh and got lucky)

He is being Hosakawa Tito has asked I you I speak English for in I bawb have understand. Why carry on crookedly the way here?

New forum rules.....let's all speak our mother tongue!!

Maybe we should institute a "Native Language Only" day once a week.

[Stig]

I suggest a babelfish only week, everything you post must have been translated by babelfish

[Orda Khan]

That Welsh to english translater could do with some work, though in fairness it does not always translate literally. It was close enough

........Orda

[Mars]

...You have raised some very valid points and I think everyone would agree with the sentiment, MP never has been a major concern or part of the TW series. Still there is no getting away from the fact that MP has deteriorated and I think all that anyone wanted was for it to at least remain constant. Certain things have been dumbed down as you say and whereas CA may not think it worthwhile investing too much into MP, on the same note, why would they make it worse?
I see your point about the 10 or 20 players but I am sure there are many more who do not even visit these boards, just as it is with SP

.....Orda

Well, ...why would they make it worse?...

It is really easy to answer that. Back in STW, weere most oldtimer agree about, the skillvl was highest. U did need much time and many games to get to a good skilllvl.

Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days. It was obvious at the xmas party from CA, where 3 CA devs played vs AMP, mag and Koc. The devs got rolled so bad, that it was seen they have no clue whats goin on.

From that day on, i did know, that they are not aware of what their engin and game is capable of.


What i try to say is, they had different ideas abotu their game than we Mplayer. Im pretty sure, that many times they spoke with the betateam or mizugang, they didnt understand the whole message.

This leads to the idea, to create a game where the average player, thats what a CA-dev is, get easy used to the game and can win some games.
Their intentions was good and even smart at some point, they tried to make what we want.... a MPlayer part of the game which attract more player.

And ofc the different TW versions got more player at some point.

There were some votes goin on at org and other sites, so u can still see the outcome. There are like 2-3% of all who voted who did try the online play.
This is my mainconcern here.

Ofc, org is much more frequented by Splayer, so maybe a Mplayer portal would gather different votings...


Anyway, lets try something different.

Lets assume, we had a much better server, something stable liek we had with EA. We would get a quick patch after 1 month and than more patched which really work out bugs.

further lets assume, there never would be lag, there wouldnt be some silly SSE2 stuff. U could run it on less good computer.

The lobby would be insane good, there were tourneys every weekend
and we had some good working ladders.


And now with kinda a perfect game from the POV of people who visit this board, how many people u think would play the TW game online?

2000 or 5000?


Lets go even further, u could go and split the online battles from the original game and make it free for download and playable for everyone. Im sure u could imagin some other stuff to make the game avalaible for more player who like to play online.

Now again? How many u think?



We should sort out some basics imo. While i see people who liek to have "more" people playing it online, noone really clear out, how many are ment.

CA would away at like 50.000 player who play online, maybe even 25.000, but it would get interesting at 50k.

While player here would freak out with 5000 already.


Anyway, CA could do a lot more. The game could be much better.
without a question, but people here tend to see things out the proportion.


Mars

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

We should sort out some basics imo. While i see people who liek to have "more" people playing it online, noone really clear out, how many are ment.

CA would away at like 50.000 player who play online, maybe even 25.000, but it would get interesting at 50k.

While player here would freak out with 5000 already.


Anyway, CA could do a lot more. The game could be much better.
without a question, but people here tend to see things out the proportion.


Mars

For every problem is a solution. I would create many lobbies and a global chat system. The lobbies doesn't have to be static. There should be some lobbys with static size e.g. for 1000 players and customable lobbies for vets and people who know each other already. You can invite other to join this lobby. I think there are possibilities to avoid, that 10000 people are in one lobby ;) "Admins" of that custom lobby can manage the members of the lobby.

In my opinion, if they would create a new MP with new game modes, a ladder, statistic, clan system, a good chat system, balanced battles, an engine that also works on MID RANGE PCs, they could get new customers, that played Warcraft3 or Starcraft before. Very important would be a ladder system and different unique award. Or virtual money(florins) for the clans. I would take a look on MMORGs, on the EA Battlefield serie and other successful games. It is not only the game itself, why the people play the games. It is, that they can play together and the point/award system, why the people play the online games. They want awards and ranks. If you meet a LVL 50 character in LOTRO, you think wow, I wanna be also in that position. I must play more. :P And I need good team m8s to grow and become better. MTW is a team game already, but CA has to extend it a lot, as they never tried. The game is unique. I don't see a reason, why it should be a big success online.

Only some polls in a forum don't show the real potential. They have never really created a really good system, that animate masses to play.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Mars
Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days. It was obvious at the xmas party from CA, where 3 CA devs played vs AMP, mag and Koc. The devs got rolled so bad, that it was seen they have no clue whats goin on.

It may be true that top community players would be able to explore the depths a game has to offer but to say that a developer is coming up with it randomly sounds incorect.

People specialise in doing this or that however not practically doing one thing (playing) doesn't prevent understanding of a situation without being able to practically respond to it. Great coaches don't play necesarily as good as their players - great designers usually have nil manual/practical skills and are terrible builders.

The fact that CA staff lost to some of the best players of the community does not make them necessarily ignorant or lacking judgement in what design aspects/parameters may render a game deep or not.

I agree with you that a developer cannot fully explore the potentials of its creation which is why people are required giving feedback and helping out in those departments in a more detailed manner - Palamedes is a recent example. However saying that they came up with what they came up by pure luck sounds a bit wrong to me. Even the way they degraded the game if you want was done systematically and to the points that would make the game more succesful commercially to the SP people while maintaining the initial shell. I am pretty sure that they very well know what they are doing - perhaps not in the details - but in the broad picture.

Many Thanks

Noir

[Puzz3D]

Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days.

STW/MTW has a well designed battle engine with a statistically robust mathematical model. STW has the better playbalance because it has fewer unit types, and all factions have the same unit set. The STW gameplay may well have exceeded expectations, but I don't think it was the result of luck. LongJohn did a great job designing the STW battle engine and playbalancing the STW battles. He wasn't with CA when they made the Mongol Invasion add-on for STW, and you remember how bad the STW/MI multiplayer gameplay was. The engine was exactly the same, but the new units were not balanced and the morale level was too high.

[TosaInu]

MTW is a team game already, but CA has to extend it a lot, as they never tried.

There may still is the issue of synchronising it, but the ingredients for a totally different teamgame are there (there have been discussions about this before). 64v64 teamgames are not an impossibility, I recall having seen 128v128. MMORPG allow even larger, but that's a different ballgame I think (number of players per map is what matters).

This mode would/could use the general view camera (but why make that a hardcoded limitation, unrestricted camera will be the way to go for others) and each unit is controlled by one player. Instead of a 3vs3 where each player has to control 20 units, a 64V64 could be played and each has only 1 unit (or a more down to earth 10vs10 and each having 6 units; either miniarmy of 6 per player or queued, hosts choice).

You can have a one unit only, meaning a harsh waiting if you lose it (other games have such modes too), or allow some sort of reinforcement/respawn mode (other games have that too). More options within basically the same game, allows the player to play that what he/she likes and draws more customers.

There would still be a large scale battle, but the accent would be even more on teamcoordination and even less on individual skills. Some would like that, others won't. But more options will mean there's something in it for many.

[Orda Khan]

Very true.
The ability to have large scale battles has always been the attraction for me and I have no real worry about the state of unit balance or a slight delay in commands reaching units, etc, etc. Above all else is the ability to get this game to run smoothly regardless of the numbers

....Orda

[Swoosh So]

Sigh the days of turning a battle round like my favourate battle ever in the online campaign v elites attacking bungo map are gone for totalwar, i agree with comments of we just want the same level of multiplayer as before.

Btw shogun looks better than mtw2 at times when your zoomed out as most muliplayers are :\

Shogun was an amazing game like chess and for the sake of the thread yes vi is 10x better than mtw2 online.

[Stig]

Btw shogun looks better than mtw2 at times when your zoomed out as most muliplayers are

I hope you don't mean better in the sense of graphics, but clearity.
Actually seeing where every unit is, as that is what MTW2 lacks ... luckely we have that nice button so when can highlight units.

[Swoosh So]

ofc

[tibilicus]

Shall I tell you whats annoyed me personally. The taking of "sides" earlier in this thread.

Drop the arguments for one thread!


Puzz can say what he pleases, it's freedom of speech, I personally don't agree with him but it's his opinion and I'm not going to try and cover that up.

Then there's people taking there sides just for the sake of good points if you may. Warman, Puzz does not need you to defend him, there's a certain way if you like to show weather you agree with some one or not, and that's in an orderly manner.

"MizuYuuki has earned the right to criticise as he's one of the most respected Mutliplayer in the community"

That's a bit irrelevant really. Just because he has been here longer doesn't mean he's superior to any one else. It's like me saying im richer than you so i can go around taking free stock from shops but you have to pay double the price as you don't earn as much money .

Sorry to intrude the thread but once again on topic people and lets drop the whole hostile business. Every man to his own and as always opinions are welcome and same for the healthy debate, flaming and posting personal vendettas are not.

I'm saying this as this forum is quiet as so many threads have ended recently because people have got bored of these sort of petty arguments. Lets make this forum what it could be please.





Tibilicus