Shogun II Total War

[ReluctantSamurai]

Perhaps even you reluctant one :)

Probably not going to happen. M2TW is too much like RTW...some things better, some worse, but still the same stupid, passive AI. Too many bugs, even after 6 patches, with ETW, and, while I don't have a slouch for a gaming computer, I probably can't crank up all the video settings to max and take advantage of all the eye candy. And besides, I've just never had much interest in the military history of the era's ETW & NTW cover.

It's all about going back to the basics, improving where necessary and not reaching beyond what the game is capeable of.

Sadly, that's the part that makes me wish that they never do a Shogun II, because they will never figure out how to produce an AI that can handle the complexities of the newer maps. I know 'never' is probably too harsh but I figure that after nearly a half dozen tries at it since MTW (including all the expansions) they still haven't done it, judging by the comments I've read in the Parliment & NTW forums......

[A Nerd]

some things better, some worse, but still the same stupid, passive AI

The AI is a mathematical alogarithm, such formula can be tinkered with and improved over time. I am just not one of those who knows how to do it. But I have faith that it is possible.

while I don't have a slouch for a gaming computer, I probably can't crank up all the video settings to max and take advantage of all the eye candy.

The game is still quite beautiful at lower settings. The grass for example, is completely unnecessary.

And besides, I've just never had much interest in the military history of the era's ETW & NTW cover.

Understandable. I was never a fan of this age either. Naval battles provide some fun though. You can always just engage in melee as well. I'm not trying to sell you on the game or anything, as these two titles are now in the past.

You'll have to read up on the new title what ever that is and whenever it is to be released. I'm hoping it is an improvement. Though I've liked everything after RTW, excluding expansions and the fact that I don't own NTW. Oh well, reluctant one, I do agree with you that it would be a mighty tall order to improve upon the beauty and charm of STW and MTW.

[ReluctantSamurai]

The AI is a mathematical alogarithm

And so much more. It has to decide on a plan and then attempt to carry it out. In STW, with the Risk-style of map, things were relatively easy. There's X amount of money to raise troops, and Oda over there is looking pretty weak so that's where to send the troops. In the newer style of map, there are just too many things going on for the AI to cope. After watching the last dozen or so campaigns in RTW with FOW off, I'd say that at least 50% of the AI's moves are pointless.

I had a bunch of screenies to illustrate, but I somehow deleted them Some were quite funny. First there's the "Outhouse Syndrome." A general comes out of a city, walks to his favorite 'watering hole', shakes one leg, then the other, zips it up, and heads back to the city. Brutii generals don't even have the decency to water their own countryside but go up the coast into Julii territory. Britannia's generals have the "Whorehouse Syndrome." Deva must have quite the bordello as every single one of Britannia's generals make their way there, multiple times. Then there's the "What the @#$% are we doing here? Syndrome." A few small stacks of a factions army get loaded on a boat and dumped on a foreign shore where they proceed to stand around for 50 years or more doing nothing. The most extreme case I ever saw was the Macedonians dumping off TWO generals and two half stacks near Nicomedia where they stood around for over 30 years (that's 60 turns, mind you). When Cyrene went Macendonian after throwing out an attempted occupation by the Egyptians, those stacks with the, by now old generals, headed for there.....by land. Walked all the way through Asia Minor, the Middle East, and the Nile Delta. By the time they hit Siwa, the Egyptians has already retaken it so they stood around Siwa for another 20 years. Meanwhile, Macedonia got overrun and the faction destroyed....those stacks went rebel and were promptly wiped out by the Eggies. Absolutely brilliant!!

Then there's the "HQ Orders Syndrome." A stack will head off on some kind of mission, only to turn back after a turn or two and end up right where they started. Naval units are notorious for this. They will sail right past an enemy faction fleet going to who knows where, and sail right back past them.....again.....without attacking, even if they outnumber the enemy more than 10 to 1. This just would not happen in STW. The AI goes for your throat even if it is constantly losing battles. You just know that if you beat off the first attack, the next one's going to be bigger, and the next one even bigger. It's relentless, like the Terminator, and won't ever stop until you kill it. And even then it can come back with the reappearance of a dead clan

I have others, but without the screenies, they just aren't as funny. One I will mention is the "Three Stooges Syndrome." This afflicts Seleucia. They always create three diplomats at the beginning of a campaign and the only thing they do is walk the road between Hatra and Damascus (until the Eggies take it) changing places with each other. There's always three of them, hence the name. But at least it's better than the lazy ass the Spanish hire, at the start. All he does is pace back and forth on the east side of Asturica........until he dies

And if anybody's generals deserve the "Hiding From the World" trait, it's Carthage's generals. They spend more time sailing aimlessly around in fleets, or parked offshore from Carthage, it's a minor miracle when one of them, other than Hanno, gets to have more than one command star, or any, for that matter.

With STW, there is always the possibility of losing. With RTW and later, the outcome is not much in doubt although I'm well aware of the "Black Knight Syndrome" in ETW where the AI just has every country left DoW you when you start to dominate. Doesn't sound like much fun.......

My whole point is that the map presents choices probably numbering in the millions for an AI, on what to do, what units to move and where, what buildings to build, how high to set taxes, and a host of others. But it can be done.....I'm just not sure CA is the company to do it.

I play a WWII-based game called "The Operational Art of War" put out by Talonsoft. It's a collection of various battles and campaigns from WWII and the Korean War. Several of the campaigns are simply monumental, with thousands of units to maneuver on a map. It's not a 3D map, but just as complex, nonetheless....rivers, bridges, RR's, cities, farmland, roads of various kinds, and an extremely complex battle system. The Barbarossa campaign, for instance, the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, is probably the biggest of the big. Over 1500 individual units, not counting reinforcements, on a map that spans from Poland to the Urals. And those 1500 units can be broken down into smaller units so that you literally have thousands of units on the map. Yet......

...at the higher difficulty settings, the AI will constantly kick your ass until you learn to play better. So it can be done....but I don't believe by CA. Just my 2cents, of course.

[A Nerd]

I agree with you the AI tends to wander about blindly with no real purpose at hand most of the time. I never really got into RTW but still play M2TW, and alot of the things you mentioned persist. The AI seems to take a few cities than stall, make alliances etc. Even if a war breaks out between two rival AI factions, there always seems to be a message a few turns later that there is a ceasefire. I've seen large stacks that could easily take a city and either sit around and do nothing, or siege, then call it off for no apparent reason. :/ My cities are occasionally attacked and I've put up good defenses, but the AI was never one to conduct a seige well. M2TW and I am sure RTW must be similar, is more an offensive game as played by the human. The AI will mostly mount defense as the player expands (occasionally not very good defenses), but little else. As you said in STW and MTW the AI could conduct both quite entertainingly, perhaps due to the simplicity of the strat map. I don't know why an AI that merely has to travel some distance inside than outside a province to take a city is so much harder to implement than moving from one province to another without the meandering track line. Perhaps the problem is due to the improved diplomacy model, where AI factions are more content to conduct trade in neutral or allied status. Isn't this what TW players have been asking for since STW? Improved diplomacy? Realistic countries never opted for global conquest and all out war. Save Rome, samurai clans, mogols, timurids, etc. Though even in M2TW, the horde factions will take a few cites than sit around doing nothing. At least in my experience. Great wiping out mongol stack after stack in a castle defense though. In ETW I did'nt find things too bad. On normal difficulty diplomacy wasn't to far fetched, AI factions would attack others and expand alittle (though some thought this was scripted). DoWs weren't too common in my game, I think this problem has to do with difficulty level. But I digress. I don't know what CA did with the old STW documents that were the guts of that game, but perhaps they should reference them and update them rather than starting from scratch every time and the future titles will be more reminicent of the classics. All very easy in theroy however.

[caravel]

Looks like this could become reality (post #17 onwards): https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...der-era%28s%29

[A Nerd]

I read that. It would be interesting to see if the game was more like M2TW vs STW. Bland campaign map, endless seiges, confused and scizhophrenic AI. I am excited yet concerned, for the original was so pleasing. I don't mind steam, I am wondering why some don't. Oh well, probably be some time before it is released anyway, it's still early.

[caravel]

I read that. It would be interesting to see if the game was more like M2TW vs STW. Bland campaign map, endless seiges, confused and scizhophrenic AI. I am excited yet concerned, for the original was so pleasing.

It will probably make use of the gunpowder mechanics from ETW/NTW. I am half expecting a sort of Japanese "pike and musket" with none of the balance, tactical gameplay and atmosphere of the original. The focus will probably be on the visuals (as ever) while the gameplay and physics will be of the usual generic lifelessness.

CA started out with a Sengoku Jidai engine, which was adapted for MTW. It did not work as well for MTW (AI limitations). Rome was the beginning of the "one size fits all" engine of today. That engine is tarted up and given a new suit of clothes and what was Rome becomes, Medieval, then a botox and facelift and Empire becomes Napoleon becomes Shogun, etc...

I just hope (again) that this is the game to revive the genre.

I don't mind steam, I am wondering why some don't. Oh well, probably be some time before it is released anyway, it's still early.

One man's meat is another's poison.

[A Nerd]

I just hope (again) that this is the game to revive the genre.

You never know. The new engine (if new) might be more adaptable to factions that are similar (culture, end goals, unit roster) than starkly different ones of latter titles. The expansive diplomacy models of ETW and NTW would also be interesting in S2TW, however we don't want dormant, docile AI clans.

[caravel]

You never know. The new engine (if new) might be more adaptable to factions that are similar (culture, end goals, unit roster) than starkly different ones of latter titles. The expansive diplomacy models of ETW and NTW would also be interesting in S2TW, however we don't want dormant, docile AI clans.

I suspect that the game will use the same engines as ETW/NTW? I haven't played either, but as far as I know the ETW/NTW battle engine is much the same as the M2TW one, with some extra bling. The campaign map is much the same as well but smoother and less tiled looking - to cut a long story short they're not "new engines" as such but improvements to RTW with lots of add on bits. The only really "new" part is the naval battles.

It is true that factions with very similar or identical rosters will be more easily managed by the AI to give a more balanced game. The NTW diplomacy, I'm also not familiar with, but from what I've read it's still not as good as it should be.

[A Nerd]

The NTW diplomacy, I'm also not familiar with, but from what I've read it's still not as good as it should be.

Time makes space for improvement. ETW and NTW faiing was the gunpowder tactics vs. the melee of older titles. A return to melee and a limited scope I think will be a good thing.

[caravel]

Time makes space for improvement. ETW and NTW faiing was the gunpowder tactics vs. the melee of older titles. A return to melee and a limited scope I think will be a good thing.

Indeed but they've had since RTW to sort out the diplomacy issues. They released the same broken diplomatic model in M2TW and then, after half admitting that diplomacy had been broken all along, claimed that it would all be fixed in ETW - from the screenshots and write ups I've seen of ETW, it clearly wasn't fixed and still isn't.

[A Nerd]

ETWs isn't as bad (in my opinion) as many say. The problem lies in difficuly level. They want a tough strat and battle experince, but the coding also makes diplomacy more difficult as well. I don't know why they are connected, but my diplomacy/economy has always thrived on normal. This, in my opinion, seems to be the root of the problem.

[Sp00n]

Reality quite possibly soon.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/se...hogun-2-reveal

:P

[Servius]

From Kotaku
http://kotaku.com/5549952/total-war-...turns-to-japan

[sassbarman]

god i hope this is all true and that they do it justice.

[Servius]

It all hangs on the AIs (Diplomatic, Campaign, and Battle), but the style will also be truely important. The quality of the AI will determine how good of a game it is, but the style will play a huge role in determining how good a update it is to the original. The style of Shogun was not present in any subsequent title. The simple map (no 3D trees swaying, streams running, risk-style), the simple pieces, the music, the throne room, the mini movie clips for agent actions... Shogun was simple, and beautiful in its simplicity. It felt like how I imagine Japanese of that period would have designed it (if they had had the tech of course). That made it very special. CA had better be careful with this one.

[sassbarman]

well put servius

[A Nerd]

CA had better be careful with this one.

I have to agree with this one. STW, the game that it was and still is, was so brilliant and paved the way for a following of its successors. To tinker with STW is a bold move indeed, should it fail and be compared to RTW and everyting after, I shudder at the thought...

[ReluctantSamurai]

In the end, if CA doesn't do something to simplify the campaign map, or conversely, produce a better AI, then we will be presented with yet another disappointment. I'm not holding my breath...............................

[edyzmedieval]

I fear for this. It sounds like an incredible idea, but I'm almost 100% certain they will screw it up and make us cringe at the new interpretation of this amazing game.

2011, I'm looking forward. I am extremely curious about Shogun 2 after a couple of years of damn gunpowder.

[edyzmedieval]

Confirmed.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/109/1093664p1.html

Good news for us all then.

[Terazawa]

Now THAT it is some nice news =)

Been dreaming about a STW remake for 10 years.

[Kagemusha]

Finally.

[edyzmedieval]

This is definitely the TW game I will be waiting for.

[sassbarman]

When you consider everything, I think it's simply the best setting for a totalwar game, I can hardly wait!!!

[AggonyDuck]

Yup, I just hope the CA of today can do the first one justice.

[Gregoshi]

I'm very happy about this and am very encouraged by what was said in the article.

[caravel]

I'm not so hopeful... As ever there is much talk about visuals and sound effects, plus the mention of "hero characters" (expanding on the kensai of STW...). I had to laugh at the bit about recording the footstep sounds using authentic period footwear on different types of terrain. To me it's just typical CA - masses of time and budget spent on trimmings and useless aspects of the game, very little time spent on AI, gameplay and bug fixes.

[Sp00n]

Yup, I just hope the CA of today can do the first one justice.

They can help by giving us the online community chat we had in previous games but absent from Empire. Kinda kills MP for me.

[edyzmedieval]

I'm not so hopeful... As ever there is much talk about visuals and sound effects, plus the mention of "hero characters" (expanding on the kensai of STW...). I had to laugh at the bit about recording the footstep sounds using authentic period footwear on different types of terrain. To me it's just typical CA - masses of time and budget spent on trimmings and useless aspects of the game, very little time spent on AI, gameplay and bug fixes.

Right on the money.

But I still keep my hopes up. This is the last TW for me if they screw it up.