The Complete EDU Guide - Discussion

[Aradan]

Yep, tested it myself, didn't have the time to edit the Guide though. Thx for the confirmation!

[Lysander13]

Question for Aradan actually.....
When the developers of FATW decided to make the switch from Darth Formations to Sinuhet; did you guys have to make wholesale changes to the formation line in the EDU in terms of unit width and depth to improve the performance of Sinuhet's AI? Also did you guys have to change the amount of soldiers in the soldier line as well?

[BozosLiveHere]

One thing that I think should be included. For the mercenary_unit attribute it prevents a unit replenishing losses. I also believe that it forces the units with the attribute to use the 'merc' texture and sprite lines in DMB for all faction owners of the unit even if they have their own texture line in DMB.

I'm pretty sure that's the merc trick we've been using in EB for years to squeeze an extra skin per model. I didn't know it wasn't common knowledge.

[Aradan]

No, we didn't change anything in our EDU for that purpose. Sin's formations are very flexible in this regard. But that could depend also on the specifics of your game's EDU. The only suggestion I could perhaps make is to make your horse-archers formation less wide, because with Sin's formations they really tend to try and flank/envelop your infantry and being narrower makes them more versatile.


Well, Bozos, nothing remains a secret for long in a community... And now everybody knows! Or at least those that bothered to read the Guide...

[Lysander13]

No, we didn't change anything in our EDU for that purpose. Sin's formations are very flexible in this regard. But that could depend also on the specifics of your game's EDU. The only suggestion I could perhaps make is to make your horse-archers formation less wide, because with Sin's formations they really tend to try and flank/envelop your infantry and being narrower makes them more versatile.

Thanks for the tip. One more question if i could and pardon if it's a tad bit off topic. Have any FATW players reported occasions of an "idle" reinforcing army using Sin's formations?

[Aradan]

I don't think any have, but I have seen it happening some times. But i have seen it hapenning with vanilla and Darth too. I have restricted it a bit by changing some offsets, but I don't think there's a way to solve it completely, due to the way the formations are coded - and the lack of a descrimination between normal and reinforcing armies.

[Makanyane]

another topic that might be relevant to this:

I've been having trouble with the 'Abilities at a Glance' section of the units info screen not showing up, have pinned it down to an extent as being to do with the selection of the stat_ground bonuses, problem seems to be mainly to do with having -1 and -1 for forest and snow (the last two figures) eg:
stat_ground 1, 2, -1, -1
though some other permutations seems to be doing it to me as well. The full EDU entry for the unit that definitely isn't working is:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type assakii infantry
dictionary assakii_infantry ; spear & sword
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier assakii_infantry, 40, 0, 1.1
officer rahala_standard
attributes sea_faring, can_sap
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.7
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_10
stat_sec 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.85
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 1, 2, -1, -1
stat_mental 10, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 5000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 330, 90, 50, 70, 330
ownership vandals

has anyone else experienced that or got any ideas as to why that would be happening?

P.S. attributes like "can form shield wall" are showing up fine in custom battle selection they just don't appear on the unit info screen for that unit....

[Aradan]

I don't think this has to do with the ground modifiers... Can you try to add two more attributes to the unit? Re shield-wall, all looks fine here. And I think formation abilities always show up at the top, so that can't be lack of space in the 'abilities' section... Weird.

[Red Spot]

the only thing I can spot on the go is that in vanilla Rome (guessing its the same for BI) every unit except siege-engines has the atribute;
-hide_forest, or
-hide_improved_forest

=======

**5 minutes and to custom-battles further down the line ....**

Mak you again are the finder of little oddities ..;)
see my lvl3 archer here, hadnt even noticed this before;


I can assure you they "can sap" as do their lvl2 brothers wich also show they can .... (similair units-stats, but +1attack, +2armour)

the stats;

type             roman archer auxillia
dictionary       roman_archer_auxillia      ; Archer Auxilia
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          roman_archer_auxillia, 50, 0, 0.4
officer          roman_early_standard
mount_effect     elephant +8
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap
formation        0.8, 1.2, 1.2, 1.6, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         8, 1, arrow, 170, 50, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         3, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 5, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 1, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      2, 0, 3, 1
stat_mental      10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 260, 80, 40, 60, 260
ownership        roman


type             roman archer auxillia ii
dictionary       roman_archer_auxillia_ii      ; Archer Auxilia II
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          roman_archer_auxillia_ii, 50, 0, 0.5
officer          roman_standard
mount_effect     elephant +8
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, hardy
formation        0.8, 1.2, 1.2, 1.6, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         9, 1, arrow, 180, 60, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         3, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 6, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 1, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      2, 0, 3, 1
stat_mental      12, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 320, 100, 50, 75, 320
ownership        roman

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[Aradan]

Red Spot, I think the dissappearence of your "can sap" there is because there are no more 'abilities' slots left. The last slot of your Legionary Archers' abilities is taken by "hardy".

[Red Spot]

reading between the lines I take it that you mean I can only assigne 4 atributes, or do you mean only 4 will show up in the "at a glance" bit??

anyway as example an "vanilla" upgraded general;

type             carthaginian general's cavalry
dictionary       carthaginian_generals_cavalry      ; General's Armoured Bodyguard
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          carthaginian_royal_cavalry, 12, 0, 1
mount            generals horse
mount_effect     elephant -8, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, general_unit, hide_forest, hardy, general_unit_upgrade
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health      2, 0
stat_pri         11, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         12, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 7, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 1, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      0, 1, -6, -1
stat_mental      10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1040, 80, 110, 160, 1040
ownership        carthage, spain, numidia

thats 5 atributes, though ofcourse most normally dont show up in the "at a glance" bit ...

more testing to do .......


Edit;
still havent done the archer thing, but there are a few things I've experianced in combat based on a few simple EDU tweaks that I tought might be interesting, dont know for sure if I should post it here .... anyway ..

-setting charge distance for regular infantry to something like 15 and spear to ~5 makes them charge in a much smoother "grouped" fashion, keeping unit formation intact even in the charge, even with my formation withs (0.8,1.2inf--0.8,0.8spear)
I was actually impressed by their charge and it "seemed"(untested) to reflect in combat-results as well


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[Lysander13]

I don't think any have, but I have seen it happening some times. But i have seen it hapenning with vanilla and Darth too. I have restricted it a bit by changing some offsets, but I don't think there's a way to solve it completely, due to the way the formations are coded - and the lack of a descrimination between normal and reinforcing armies.

I've never actually seen it happen with Sinuhet's; I've seen it in vanilla and Darth's but only when i was tinkering with a few things and i omitted his width forcing while using huge unit sizes. I ask because it's been mentioned to me a few times. Must be just one of those weird things i haven't seen yet. Thanks for the cavalry tip...I'm gonna narrow down some of the cavalry formations in the EDU a bit and see if i like the angles they take a little better.

[Aradan]

np Lysander. I've read the comments on your EB formations thread. If you find out what's causing this effect, please share!

@ Red Spot: Yep, small charge distance values seem to work well for infantry, but they are dependent on the ground-type speed modifiers. If they are too high some units that have slow charging animations might have some problems. Generally such things need tweaking according the specifics of the mod.

I *think* that the unit card only displays up to 7 abilities at a glance. It's not the number of attributes in the EDU, it's the actual number of displayed messages on the card.

The "can_sap" one seems to be problematic, as it seems to hide the abilities section completely if it's not coded along with at least 3 more attributes... Anyone else having this issue (besides Mak obviously)?

[Makanyane]

I haven't checked the can_sap bit, will do that tomorrow. But I can definitely fix my problem on an off with that unit I posted solely by changing the forest terrain modifier from -1 to -2 ! Thats what I meant by having pinned down to terrain modifier, though it might be an odd quirk that means that only applies combined with the other problem..... definitely

[Red Spot]

Aradan, I know(still apreciate you mentioning it), my groundtype modifiers are ~at 0.8 wich makes eg legionaries able to get trow a pilum before getting charged by cavalry (in general!), didnt post that as I figured it was relativly "general info" :D
(imo at ~0.8 is pretty good "allround" higher and certain animations are too slow to prevent AI/player imbalances, too low and animations get ugly as it looks like a unit is running its behind of while it hardly is moving (+ that it over-balances ranged units)

I agree that 7 seems to be the magic number, my lvl3(+) units never show more than a total of 7 where some should imo at least show 8 ....
Interesting though that the sapping ability is the one causing problems, I'd sooner be looking at like the turtle formation(just try to use it on other units ..:P)


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[Makanyane]

Re: my earlier comments on the 'abilities at a glance' on the unit info screens not turning up - I haven't got a conclusive reason but can give some examples

Unit with:
attributes sea_faring, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -1, -1
does NOT have abilities shown in screen.

Unit with:
attributes hide_forest, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -1, -1
DOES have abilities shown in screen, Red Spot was on to something with that..

but also
Unit with:
attributes sea_faring, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -2, -1
DOES have abilities shown in screen.

Unit with:
attributes sea_faring, druid, can_swim, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -1, -1
does NOT have abilities shown in screen, but if you switch sea_faring to hardy it does work

but also;
Unit with:
attributes sea_faring, druid, can_swim, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -2, -1
DOES have abilities shown in screen

also
Unit with:
attributes hardy, druid, can_sap
and
stat_ground 1, 1, -1, -1
DOES have abilities shown in screen, though have noticed that the druid attribute isn't mentioned - not sure if it ever is?

I'm a little lost as to what the linkage is between combinations that do work and ones that don't! Could anyone else have a look and see if they can confirm any of this and come up with some idea why...

[Charge]

From little testing I've done, with attributes sea_faring, can_sap (or only sea_faring) 'abilities at a glance' shows if I have any parameter in stat_ground 3, or -2. Though if they dont shows, they applies anyway, at least my gallic swordsman with 0,0,0,0 was clearly beaten by britons with 0,2,0,0 in desert.
So use any hide_forest or any other attributes to make abilities visible, or for non-hideable units big "-" in stat_ground...

[Makanyane]

*bump* hopefully question belongs to this topic.

I was wondering if anyone has managed to come up with any conclusive information about how unit sizes and stats affect auto-calc (other than just auto-calc sucks!) - is there anything you can do within EDU to help an AI faction with smaller unit sizes?

[Aradan]

Guide updated with info on 'short_pike'.

Other than horse units are seriously underpowered in auto-calc and that heavy mounted missiles are terribly overpowered, nothing conclusive... A nice opportunity to do some testing though. :)

Did you figure out the can_sap/stat_ground problem? I've had no luck pinning it down.

[Charge]

Aradan, can you give more detailed explanation of discipline?

[discipline] : Unit's discipline level, which determines the rate at which its morale is depleted or restored during melee. Can be low, normal, disciplined, impetuous or berserk. Disciplined units are harder to lose morale. Berserk units can (obviously) go berserk and impetuous units may charge without orders.

Does this means that impetuous is better than disciplined, or only in restoring morale?

[Aradan]

low < normal < disciplined < impetuous < berserker

As you go towards the right, units gain morale faster and lose it slower. So disciplined is better than normal (which is better than low), but it's worse than impetuous (which is in turn worse than berserk).

[Makanyane]

Other than horse units are seriously underpowered in auto-calc and that heavy mounted missiles are terribly overpowered, nothing conclusive... A nice opportunity to do some testing though. :)

Did you figure out the can_sap/stat_ground problem? I've had no luck pinning it down.

hmmm, I seem to be acquiring lots of opportunities to test things

The dissappearing description thing I didn't get any further than finding those examples of working non/working combos, couldn't figure out any particular conclusion, just fiddling the attribute or stat when it occurs!


Didn't spot you mentioning anywhere the "general_unit_upgrade"
attribute, I assume that's tied to the
upgrade_bodyguard 1
in EDB, EDB guide lists that as operating after Marian reforms. Does anyone know if you have that in EDB and reforms operating, do you need a general_unit_upgrade for all the factions?

[BozosLiveHere]

AFAIK, general_unit_upgrade makes the game switch bodyguards to the unit with this attribute when the marian reforms hit. The upgrade_bodyguard thing in EDB has no effect in RTW 1.2+.

[Red Spot]

you know I've been meaning to test that since like I started modding the Romans ... long ago ...

will do that right now ...

Edit;works like a charm, that is, under BI 1.6
when the marian reforms hit all my generals instantly got the new bodyguard
Edit2;slight correction, the bonus doesnt seem to do anything, its the reforms that trigger the upgrade
setting the upgrade to 2 or giving it at 2 to a later building doesnt trigger any (next) upgrade


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[Makanyane]

Re; general_unit attribute, I only just noticed and not sure if its mentioned somewhere but it seems to entirely stop the AI recruiting that unit. So if you have ZOR based recruitable generals bodyguards you won't get them used by the AI.

[Aradan]

Yes, we have noted that behaviour in FATW, the AI will never use RGs. Guide will be updated, thx for poitning that out.

[Red Spot]

Thanks for that Mak. as that was an other thing I still had to test (was hoping that it was the high price and 2+ turn recruitment that stopped them from recuiting them ...)

too bad ...:(


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[Squid]

Actually in RS we've had opposite effect, we have recruitable generals, and we had problems in a previous release where the AI would start spamming full stacks of general units.

We tracked the problem down to one of the AIs cost benefit analysis, where if the AI thinks that the general unit is the best unit for the cost, it will continue to make the unit until a better cost benefit unit comes along.

[Makanyane]

gah, don't understand that, I was having problem with absolutely none of the general_unit atrib cavalry turning up as bodyguard or otherwise, tried fiddling stats as I assumed that was problem but that didn't do anything, removing general_unit resulted in them getting spammed through every stack......

That and FATW are on BI were you testing on RTW exe?

[Squid]

I can't take credit for the solution, but what I think dvk901 did was he just kept reducing the number of men in a generals unit until they were no longer being spammed all the time.

As far as I know it happened on both exes, but I could be wrong it may only have been rtw.