Just an off-topic thread for WTW

[Bwian]

For me, having a fairly well defined and rich background and unit selection is a good thing. There is a very defintie model to work to, and what you can have is already fairly well defined.

Some might think that restrictive ....

but hte last mod I tried to build for RTW was Metal Mayhem, something ENTIRELY of my own devising, and the pressure of that was far greater. I had to invent the units, invent reasons for them existing, invent a backstory that explained them AND decide how they would look move nad fight.

Now THAT is a challenge!

also, as it happens, a challenge I would like to return to when this mod is done. If the bugs are worked out of the mount skeletons and animations, then the M2TW engine will REALLY allow me to make the mod i imagined.... which RTW never really did.

But that will wait! First I have a Warhammer Mod to finish!!!!

[Spankfurt]

Just keep on chuggin' :)

Being from England you HAVE to be into premier league. and if not you have to at least support Chelsea. What are your thoughts on this?

[Decker]

Just keep on chuggin' :)

Being from England you HAVE to be into premier league. and if not you have to at least support Chelsea. What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with the first part but... must I say the Blues.?..?? Come ooon. Chelsea was a real football team when they had Renire(or however you spell his name) and all of those managers before the big $$money$$ came along with all of those all-stars. I liked them before that but lost interest when they went with the money, since then I've been following the Spurs.

For me, having a fairly well defined and rich background and unit selection is a good thing. There is a very defintie model to work to, and what you can have is already fairly well defined.

Some might think that restrictive ....

but the last mod I tried to build for RTW was Metal Mayhem, something ENTIRELY of my own devising, and the pressure of that was far greater. I had to invent the units, invent reasons for them existing, invent a backstory that explained them AND decide how they would look move and fight.

Now THAT is a challenge!

also, as it happens, a challenge I would like to return to when this mod is done. If the bugs are worked out of the mount skeletons and animations, then the M2TW engine will REALLY allow me to make the mod i imagined.... which RTW never really did.

But that will wait! First I have a Warhammer Mod to finish!!!!

Well your MM, was done from scratch and GW's already had sort of a base thanks to LoTR and probably a few buddies who put it all together. BTW, any pics and or links to your other mod? I'm curious to see what you did considering how amazing your work for this mod is.

[Bwian]

Makes mental note ...Spankfurt is a Chelsea fan. There are worse crimes in theworld...but not many Massive money pit of a team with bought in talent and a habit of 'hoarding' players just so other teams can't have them. Amazing how many fans started appearing when the money arrived ..shame about hte price of season tickets though

Decker..a Spurs fan... well, that makes two of us then Much more entertaining to watch! You NEVER know how the result is going to turn out. On top of that...living just a few miles from White Hart Lane, I couldn't very well support anyone else...especially that OTHER North London Team... the one the kids all started supporting when they were winning ...

Anyway.... enough of football already! I am more interested in who is going to bag the MotoGP title this year

For a potted history on Metal Mayhem, there should still be a thread tucked away in the RTW modding forum complete with screenshots.

[Didz]

Didz .... check out the stickied thread on the legal bit. GW are VERY generous with what they allow fans to do with their IP.

Lol: you must be joking.

Check out their IP policy. Basically GW will not allow fans to due anything at all with their IP except on sufferance. They even make it clear that anything a fans does produce using their IP is in effect their property regardless of the circumstances under which it was produced.

If your in any doubts read here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/legal/canandcant/1/
and note the following:

WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.

So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:

Use Games Workshop?s intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity ? this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.

Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).

Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.

Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.

Alter our trademarks in any way.

Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).

Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop

State that anything that you create using Games Workshop?s intellectual property is "official."

Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.

Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.

This is further supplemented by the preface policy that:

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU REALISE THAT:
Games Workshop reserves the right to change this policy without notice.

The contents of this policy are in no way meant or intended to be a license of any nature.

That most uses of our intellectual property without a license are likely to be an infringement; however, Games Workshop is unlikely to object to any infringement if it adheres to this policy.

Please also note that we reserve the right at any time and without notice to insist that you cease or alter your use of our IP – we reserve this right so we can comply with any licenses that we have with third parties. We want to strongly emphasize this point and would ask you to keep this in mind at all times when using our IP. We would not want anyone to feel ambushed if we asked them to, for example, remove the short story that they had been working on for twelve months from publication on the Internet.

I've highlighted what I consider to be the critical bits in BLUE just to make things easier.

The key points to note are that whilst the GW IP policy, quite reasonably, objects to commercial exploitation of its IP, it does not limit itself to preventing commercial exploitation.

As explicitly stated GW considers any use of its IP, even for private use, to be an infringement of its copyright. In effect, that means that even the act of playing one of their games is in theory a breach of their IP.

Paying anyone to do anything to help you is also a specific breach. Thus, going to the local library and paying them to make a few copies of unit sheet or a flyer advertising your club is a breach of copyright. Paying someone to help you design any part of a fan-site, or paying for the domain name is a breach of copyright.

Using any of the GW trademarks, on anything, is a breach of copyright. Whilst not using them is also a breach of copyright as your are required to use them to make the necessary IP disclaimer on anything you produce. So, for example 'Totalwar Warhammer Mod' is a breach of GW IP policy as it mentions Warhammer which is a GW trademark. Likewise, the 'Upper Gidding Warhammer Battle Club' would be in breach of GW IP policy for the same reason.

And if you manage to avoid all of the stated conditions which put you in breach then the catch all statements

'Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop.'

and

'Games Workshop reserves the right to change this policy without notice.'

will ensure that they can get you if they want to.

Examples of how this policy has been used recently:

1) To demand that Ebay pulls auctions of second hand GW products.
2) To demand that fan's close down their websites.
3) To prevent fans publishing supplementary rules and scenario's.
4) To demand that reviews of GW products are removed from fans sites.

This was enough to convince me that my plans for a WFRP fan site to support my two year old game were too much of a risk to proceed with.

I wanted to use GW trademarks on the site and to include copies of character sheets, maps and imagery from the official scenario booklets. GW refused to give me permission to do this, they also refused to sanction the employment of a graphic artist to reproduce them and despite promises have still not released an open license fans site kit containing imagery and trademarks they are willing to allow fans to use.

Therefore, as things stand everything that a fan does with GW products is basically done on sufferance. You cannot actually do anything, not even play their games without being in breach of their copyright. Your Mod is almost certainly in breach simply by calling itself the Warhammer Mod.

The only reason some fans manage to produce fan sites and sell their second-hand GW products is that they are not currently being targeted by GW staff. GW staff use the IP policy to effectively persecute certain fans who have upset them or, thus, one fan may be allowed to set up a web site another will be told to close it down. Post a review which upsets a GW staffer and then next thing you know you get a note telling you to pull it or face the consequences.

Its actually one of the most restrictive IP policies I've seen, particularly because GW ought to be keen to encourage fans to promote their products.

[Bwian]

It's really a question of interpretation. I read that and all I see is a company protecting it's key source of revenue and making sure that nothing the fans do devalues that.

I have no problem with the conditions under which we are expected to act, and I would expect anyone else involved with the mod would respect that as well.

The first line explains the need for the rest, and applies to any mod. Just because it's free does not give us the right to use any trademarked and copyrighted material. Not just Warhammer.

I do not intend to use 'warhammer' in a domain name ... they do not want people pretending to be official sites, when they are not. Nothing wrong with that! I would be annoyed if I found my trademark associated with lord knows what! It does not mean you cannot call the game Warhammer Total War ... there is just a need to credit the trademark owner and NOT alter the logo's if we show them on screen. Also...NOTHING will be paid for. The teams work id free, my work is free and no content will be paid for by anyone. That would probably end up breaching CA's terms of use anyway, let alone GW's.

Some do not like the conditions, but compared to some IP holders ( I won't mention names ) the fact that GW state a policy and allow people to produce mods based in the worlds is at least putting the cards on the table up front. Just because a copyright holer doesn't state a policy doesn't mean it's corporate lawyers will not swoop when it suits them!

At least with GW they tell you what you can/can't do, and give you a clear frame of reference to work within. If I upset them with this mod by breaking the rules, at least I knew them when I started! How many other mods are using IP's from other sources...books, films etc. with no actual idea of where the company draws the line. They may be existing only because they have not been noticed. That is a scary thought.... especially when the mod gets noticed after release, and the instruction to remove it comes along after all that hard work!

Personally, I do not intend to directly scan or copy any GW materials ( books etc ), not will I pinch logo's from their website and mess about with them. I do not pretend this is an official project, and I fully intend to respect the ethos and feel of the world. If I didn't...well, why bother making a Warhammer Mod!

The ONLY curve ball in the whole statement comes right at the end. This is where they would insist on a mod shutting down if they chose to licence an identical game concept themselves. To allow a mod to progress when they have sold rights to a publisher to make a ame would cause problems for them, and probably breach the contractual terms of such a venture. If it happens...so be it. There is nothing I can do.

The alternative is just to stop the mod immediately, delete all the content on my HD and request the mods to remove this whole section of hte forum.

...

Hands up those who think I ought to do that ?

[Didz]

It's really a question of interpretation. I read that and all I see is a company protecting it's key source of revenue and making sure that nothing the fans do devalues that.

I think it goes beyond that, especailly if one compares it to the IP policies of other companies in the same market.

For example: If you contact Blizzard and inform them that you want to set up a World Of Warcraft Fan Site you will probably be informed about the Blizzard Fan Site Program http://www.wow-europe.com/en/links/fansites.html which provides you with help guidance and a Fan Site Kit with official graphic's for use on your site. This provides you with a clear license to use the official Blizzard imagery provided, plus additional support to ensure that the site you produce is successful and acceptable.

Contact GW and what you get is directed to their IP policy and told that you can make a site but if GW don't like it you will have to change it or close it down. I spoke to Simon Butler when he worked for Black Industries there was some talk about a fan-site kit but it never came to anything.

It goes way beyond the need to protect their revenue, its more about control without commitment. Blizzard want to see high quality fan-sites promoting WoW so they put in the commitment to help and guide fans to produce the results they want to see.

GW want control but aren't prepared to make any commitment, so they've adopted a catch all IP policy that enables them to act reactively against anything and anyone they perceive to be a threat.

I have no problem with the conditions under which we are expected to act, and I would expect anyone else involved with the mod would respect that as well.

Thats fine as long as your prepared to put your own time and money into the project even though there is a risk that GW could simply tell you to delete everything when you've finished.

The way I see it as a fan I am being invited to play in backyard owned by the product supplier. Its in both the owners and my interests that I have a good time and so you expect certain rules to apply. However, instead GW insist on keeping a large vicious dog in their backyard and despite numerous requests consistently refuse to chain it up so that fans can clearly see the limitations of its reach. Instead what GW are saying is 'Come and play in my backyard and have a good time, and provided you don't do anything to upset me I promise not to set my dog on you.'

Now in my opinion thats a bad situation to get oneself into and I tried for about a year to get some clear statement from GW which would establish a boundary outside of which I would be safe to develop a fan site. All I got in the end was an unofficial promise that if I produced a site, they would look at it and decide whether it was ok.

At least with GW they tell you what you can/can't do, and give you a clear frame of reference to work within.

Except of course that if you've read it you must realise that it basically says that you can't do anything.

And as already stated you have already broken their rules, all that matters now is whether they choose to set the dog on you or not.

I obviously don't want you to stop the excellent stuff you are doing, but you need to be aware that other people have already been caught out by assuming that they are safe just because they are a fan and not making any money out of their efforts.

[Jubal_Barca]

If either WHTW gets into any legal **** with GW, we do have some pretty sound evidence on our side that we are not harming GW's IP in any way and that in the end we're probably making them money by getting people into GW rather than losing them anything.

[Decker]

Makes mental note ...Spankfurt is a Chelsea fan. There are worse crimes in theworld...but not many Massive money pit of a team with bought in talent and a habit of 'hoarding' players just so other teams can't have them. Amazing how many fans started appearing when the money arrived ..shame about hte price of season tickets though

Them and Real. If you play for them and get injured and unless you're a sure bet and totally reliable(like JT), then they'll just buy a guy to replace you, and that's why I don't follow them any more after Reneire(how do you spell his name btw?) left.

Decker..a Spurs fan... well, that makes two of us then Much more entertaining to watch! You NEVER know how the result is going to turn out. On top of that...living just a few miles from White Hart Lane, I couldn't very well support anyone else...especially that OTHER North London Team... the one the kids all started supporting when they were winning ...

Indeed. The Spurs are a lot of fun to watch yet, with all that talent I keep waiting for them to have a break out season but it never happens .I believe it's the coach whose meddling as lost chance for the Spurs to succeed in many games. And how often do you go to the games? I know the tickets are expensive (just like they are over here for our version of football).

For a potted history on Metal Mayhem, there should still be a thread tucked away in the RTW modding forum complete with screenshots.

Alright, I'll be rummaging around then.

Just found the thread with the pics. Very nice Bwian, and you definitely were not kidding about Metal Mayhem as the title lol. I really like looking at what you did with those units. I just kept picturing them shooting lazers outta their hands tho, not really expecting to see them to go H2H with somebody. And I especially like the Newbelwerfer arty unit.

[Spankfurt]

Dammit, i don't have the time to read all this legal stuff. Just as long as the greatest mod ever made continues :)

Btw, Chelsea's just my fave London club, plus my father's supported them for 40 years. I enjoyed them most in the day's of Gianfranco Zola, and when Lamp's first arrived. Newcastle is my favourite club, and has been as long as i've loved football....Michael Owen's back....again.....Anyway, i'm happy, if not a little dissapointed to hear your thought's on this matter But i think we should create a football thread if we want to continue this debate :)

[Didz]

If either WHTW gets into any legal **** with GW, we do have some pretty sound evidence on our side that we are not harming GW's IP in any way and that in the end we're probably making them money by getting people into GW rather than losing them anything.

Thats rarely the issue that causes GW staff to staff to let the dogs loose. In fact, Ebay is stuffed with autctions of pirated and replica miniatures that they never act to have removed, most of that actual actions taken seem to be motivated more by spite than any real perception of commercial threat.

The guy who had his Ebay auction pulled on instructions of GW was not harming GW's IP either. He was merely selling some second-hand scenario booklets but he had recently been banned from the BI forum for disagreeing with a moderator. There were even other people selling exactly the same books whose auctions were allowed to continue.

Likewise, the fan who was told to pull all the book reviews from her site was not damaging GW's IP either, she merely made the mistake of using an thumbnail of the books front cover art as the link to each review. Other sites still do the same but she was not allowed to probably because her forum still supports WFRP v1.

She was lucky at least two other fan sites were forced to close completely for using GW tradmarks like 'Warhammer' on their homepages.

The entire fan produced Private War campaign is now impossible to get hold of and worth a fortune just because GW forced the author to stop distributing it, because it was so popular. And yet they allow other fan based material like Warpstone to be sold openly for profit.

It basically comes down to whether or not someone at GW has had a bad hair day and whether they decide to vent their frustrations on you personally.

So, the way I see it WHTW will either be left alone because nobody at GW notices it, or if they do notice it then they can't be bothered to do anything. Or it could be unlucky and get noticed by someone having a bad day at GW and who feels like ruining someone elses.

Its really as random as that, from what I've seen so far.

[Decker]

Dammit, i don't have the time to read all this legal stuff. Just as long as the greatest mod ever made continues :)

Well you took the time to read the whole darned thread lol.

Btw, Chelsea's just my fave London club, plus my father's supported them for 40 years. I enjoyed them most in the day's of Gianfranco Zola, and when Lamp's first arrived. Newcastle is my favourite club, and has been as long as i've loved football....Michael Owen's back....again.....Anyway, i'm happy, if not a little dissapointed to hear your thought's on this matter But i think we should create a football thread if we want to continue this debate :)

Haaa those were the days before the money came in(watched the highlights of them) and also under Ren's time(what was his name, or at least how do you spell it?). Newcastle looks solid this year as does everybody else save for a few. It's nice to see Owen back after his loooong hiatus from his injury. You guys have Alan Smith right? I was surprised they tied Villa, but at least they got a point out of it.

O, and there is a thread in the Frontroom: LEN Teh Footy God's Footballodium

[DrZoidberg]

Didz, the fan kit you got from Blizzard is not a licence to make a WOW mod. It's just graphics so you can set up a site that masturbates over games they've done. It doesn't allow you to do jack shit.

When I was involved in CIV 3 modding there was a Warcraft mod that was shut down by Blizzard, (accompanied by the most aggressive lawyer letter I've ever seen) and there was a Warhammer mod which was encouraged by GW. I've yet to find any examples of anybody doing a mod of any Blizzard product where they let them get away with it. But then again, there's very few completed mods out there at all, which may explain it.

Didz, don't get suckered in by sales rep sweet talk. It's what the companies do which counts, not cheesy formulations in thier licensing agreements, and pretty fan site kits. Most people doesn't understand that crap anyway. It's lawyer talk.

[Didz]

Didz, the fan kit you got from Blizzard is not a licence to make a WOW mod.

Never said it was, although people do produce WoW mods.

When I was involved in CIV 3 modding there was a Warcraft mod that was shut down by Blizzard, (accompanied by the most aggressive lawyer letter I've ever seen) and there was a Warhammer mod which was encouraged by GW. I've yet to find any examples of anybody doing a mod of any Blizzard product where they let them get away with it. But then again, there's very few completed mods out there at all, which may explain it.

Personally, and with no disrespect Bwain, I am not surprised by any company that objects to someone producing an unofficial computer game based upon their IP. Particularly, if they have an official computer game like Civ3, as it would pose a deliberate threat to sales of the official product, especially if it was good.

As far as mods based on Blizzard products are concerned I use loads of them for both WoW and WC3. In fact, I only bought WC3 so that I could play the custom games based upon it, I have never played the official campaigns at all.

Didz, don't get suckered in by sales rep sweet talk. It's what the companies do which counts, not cheesy formulations in thier licensing agreements, and pretty fan site kits. Most people doesn't understand that crap anyway. It's lawyer talk.

I'm afraid thats very bad advice. Its actually what the companies say in their license agreements and IP policies which determine what they can do to you. What they actually say, unofficially, even in writing is neither here no there when it comes to protecting you or your work.

GW are a classic example in that their official cheezy statements encouraging fans to produce fans sites are completely at odds with their legal position and the reality of their actions based upon it.

[Decker]

Personally, and with no disrespect Bwain, I am not surprised by any company that objects to someone producing an unofficial computer game based upon their IP. Particularly, if they have an official computer game like Civ3, as it would pose a deliberate threat to sales of the official product, especially if it was good.

As far as mods based on Blizzard products are concerned I use loads of them for both WoW and WC3. In fact, I only bought WC3 so that I could play the custom games based upon it, I have never played the official campaigns at all.

But you are talking about Blizzards products themselves and not other games by mentioning using mods to the games they have already made. I hardly hear about World of Warcraft or Starcraft mods ever being made on other games. The only one I heard of was the Civ one that got shot down bad.

So far I have yet to hear of Games Workshop shutting down other mods based on their product. Besides the DoW series, I have yet to hear of a successful game co-produced by GW as stand alone.

[Didz]

So far I have yet to hear of Games Workshop shutting down other mods based on their product.

I'm not aware of any successful computer game mods based upon the GW IP, so neither have I. This mod will be a first as far as I am aware.

However, as already explained the potential exists for them to do so if they so wished, and they have certainly forced fans to delete websites, cancel ebay auctions and withdraw fan based products in the past. Even though they posed no commercial threat to their IP.

[DrZoidberg]

Never said it was, although people do produce WoW mods.


Personally, and with no disrespect Bwain, I am not surprised by any company that objects to someone producing an unofficial computer game based upon their IP. Particularly, if they have an official computer game like Civ3, as it would pose a deliberate threat to sales of the official product, especially if it was good.

As far as mods based on Blizzard products are concerned I use loads of them for both WoW and WC3. In fact, I only bought WC3 so that I could play the custom games based upon it, I have never played the official campaigns at all.


I'm afraid thats very bad advice. Its actually what the companies say in their license agreements and IP policies which determine what they can do to you. What they actually say, unofficially, even in writing is neither here no there when it comes to protecting you or your work.

GW are a classic example in that their official cheezy statements encouraging fans to produce fans sites are completely at odds with their legal position and the reality of their actions based upon it.

I think, Didz, that you're more focused on "winning" this than actually making a cohesive case. I'll bow out now.

[Didz]

I think, Didz, that you're more focused on "winning" this than actually making a cohesive case. I'll bow out now.

I think more to the point, I've been there. I know people who have been victimised by GW and BI staff using their IP policy as a weapon.

I've also spent weeks in correspondence with Simon Butler who used to work for BI trying to get some a sort of meaningful assurance that it would not happen to the website I had hoped top produce to support my long running WFRP game. But apart from a vague suggestion that GW might produce a web-site kit (which never actually happened) I could not get any prior written approval to produce a fan-site only the promise that once I had spent the time and money on it GW would check it and decide whether to close it down or not.

Not a very good basis on which to build, so I decided not to waste my time.

[Decker]

SoOoOooo anybody around here collect Warhammer armies? If you do post your army with a brief discription(or fluff if you like), its general point total and a pic or two of it and maybe your favorite guy or unit. I personally don't have an army but I'd say that I'd probably get a Tomb Kings army, with the Bong Giants being my favorite guy and within about 2500 points.

[alexader]

Hi Decker a have an Imperial armry of more than 3000 pts but the tournaments here in Greece requires to have a standing force of 2000 pts in the colours of Talabhiem,my favourite characters is batlashar gelt and kurt hellborg,so i begin.

kurt hellborg
master engineer(with sniper and pigeon bombs)
level 2 battle wizard(i prefer lore of metal and fire,also death lore)
warrior priest
20 halberdiers with 10 militia as detachment
20 swordsmen with 10 halberdiers as detachment
5 pistoliers
9 inner circle Reicksguard knights(i usually have 12 knights)
10 handgunners(markman with sniper)
20 flagellants with prophet of doom
a great cannon
and a hellblaster
thats it for 2000 pts

I also have 16 spearmen
16 handgunners
baltashar gelt
5 outriders
10 huntsmen
a hellstorm rocket luncher
another great cannon
and 2 mortars
finally a capten(i also make him as battle standar bearer or some times as general)
26 more halberdiers
2 more battle wizards
and a steam tank

[Jubal_Barca]

Th army of Karak Calasson - a hold regarded by some as heroes of the badlands and others as filthy oathbreaking elf-friend regenades - is as always ready for WAR!

I've got about 2500-3000 points if I painted up + built all my unbuilt and unpainted figures.

[Pantsalot]

I've got roughly 3600 points of lothern seaguard & about 800 points of
Empire, & being a bit off topic, around 1200 points of Dark Eldar in WH40k &
1000 points of Viking warhammer historical (hopping to have another 1000
before Christmas)

Can't really remember all of the regiments in my High elf army so I'll say
as much as I can remember.
7x Lothern seaguards,
1x Elven archers,
2x Swordsmen of Hoeth,
2x Phoenix Guard,
3x Repeater Bolt Thrower,
1x Prince Tyrion,
1x Prince Imirik,
6x High elven Mages,
1x Archmage,
1x Shadow Warriors.

In my Empire army I have only got 3 regiments of Handgunners, Mounted
Engineer & Reikland Guards but I'll reinforce that to about 10 regiments of
handgunners, 3 regiments of Reikland guard & 5 cannons.

[Bwian]

Ahh, the joys of 40K tabletop. I got into that for a bit, and still dust off a few of them from time to time. The actual marines etc. were Ok, but the tanks and heavy units wer every expensive. Unless....like me, you got into card modelling!

Make the 3D model, import into Pepakura, print and assemble

I made a whole series of them for a variety of races. They look pretty good once painted. Give them a good base coat of acrylic to seal them, and then spray the camo patterns etc. Got the Baneblade sitting on my desk flanked by some LeMan Russ models.

[alexader]

yes i think you have right about the tanks,they are very expensive,for me the steam tank has been made by cardbox (a very tough thing).i was fighting to make all summer but it's wonderfull,it's little bigger than the original but more brutal,yeahhhh,and what you think i put for the commander above?the plastic model of the hellblaster has a figure with in the one hand holding a binocular and the other hand is pointing,i have also put hundguns and pistols in the windows of the tank representing the crew from the inside yeahhhhhhhhh very brutal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! one month i just fighting to make just the plans for the creation,but i am very happy......