Hi all (MP chat)

[Puzz3D]

That is enough to turn away a player. I am not so sure that I would want to be involved with this type of play.

The discussion is about the importance of total kills, and isn't a criticism of the way Fool played. Fool has played very well in every battle that he's been in even though he has very little experience with Sam Wars. He played very well in the battle under discussion. The mistake of using an NC to counter a YC is one I've seen many players make, but look at what I did in that battle trying to hold back an NC with a CA which was probably the worst play in the entire battle. I also got caught trying to fend off an NC with a no-dachi because it's all I had in the vicinity.

It's up to each individual player how much assitance they want to send to an ally, and it's only by experience that you get to know how much assistance a particular player is likely to provide. I wasn't sure how much assistance Fool would provide, and I was preparing to fall back to the central hill when I saw Asanorin's units come over. However, it was still a mistake for me to stay out there. I think Masa's point is that killing routers isn't as impotant as those kills you get before the enemy routs, so a player's total kills can be misleading. My point is that getting more kills is better than getting fewer kills because it reduces the grand total kill burden on your allies that's necessary to win the battle.

[Jochi Khan]

The discussion is about the importance of total kills, and isn't a criticism of the way Fool played. Fool has played very well in every battle that he's been in even though he has very little experience with Sam Wars. He played very well in the battle under discussion.

There has been no mention of the importance of total kills. My quote of Masamune in my earlier post

Here's more to boost that opinion: Fool sent one NC to help with the initial engagement, and sent it late--into a cav skirmish, in which NC do not excel. It wasn't effective (27 kills). Later, well after I launched my infantry attack, with CBR and Tosa backing me with lots and lots of cav, he sent one ysam to assist. He didn't commit other units until Tosa's cav hit his flank gun unit. Then he sent his YC to chase down Tosa's cav and protect his own guns. Of course he dominated the end game; he didn't do much to help you guys in the opening and mid-game. He got more kills that you did because he cleaned up our exhausted units. But your kills were worth three times his in glory and teamwork.

was a total criticism of Fools play in that last game you played.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Now Now, Lets keep our tempers under control :-)

[Jochi Khan]

Who is losing their temper??

It is called open discussion.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Who is losing their temper??

It is called open discussion.

No, It seems people were getting little upset (no offense, but i.e. you).

[CBR]

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-up-With-Friends

How to Make up With Friends
Everybody has friends. Everyone has enemies. Whether we like it, or believe it, it is true. There will always be someone who doesn't like you for whatever reason they can find. But sometimes a friend may find something about you that causes them to change their opinion about you, be it something you said or someone you dated, or even something as obscure as a TV show you watched. Or maybe you and your friend got in a big argument about something personal. Now your friend "hates" you. Well if they are your friend they will find a way to forgive you.

Steps

Let some time pass. Allow your friend to cool off and think about what happened and possibly move on with their lives without you. Patience is key. Don't push for redemption.

Send an IM or email to your old friend out of the blue just to see what's up. If your friend answers you, this means that they've calmed down and want to talk to you. Be friendly. Don't bring up the subject of why your friend is mad at you in the first place. Talk casually-- "What's been going' on" "How's the basketball team doing" "I see you got that scholarship" simple things like that. If they keep up the casual conversation it’s a good sign that they are warming up to your presence once again.

Grab the chance to ease into a conversation about the troubles between you. Wait for the opportune moment. It’s better if they mention it first, but if they don't, you will have to. Swallow your pride and apologize for whatever upset your friend. Try to resolve the issue while both of you are calm rather than with loud voices and misunderstandings.

Try your best to resolve any issues between you and your friend. Talk calmly about what really happened between you two. Talk about what is true about the situation what got fabricated through the grapevine. Maybe the entire event was caused by a lie perpetrated by someone else. If you know you were the one at fault be sure to explain to your friend why you did what you did, apologize for it, and reassure your friend that it won't happen again, and that you value their friendship greatly.


Tips

Patience is key.
Remember that no argument can be solved if the conditions are hostile between the two of you.
Think before you speak.
Be casual, don't move right into talking about the issue right off the bat.
Be cool.


Warnings

If you genuinely hurt your friend, it may take more time than you like.
If your efforts are rejected don't keep persisting, give up for a while and maybe try again later.
No means no.
This might not work all the time, sometimes people honestly don't like you.


Things You'll Need

Open mind and an open heart
Lack of pride
Grip on reality
Realization of what really happened
Facts

[Togakure]

Hmm .. just seeing this new development. A misunderstanding, surely. I think you are taking my comments as personal, and they're not. I had assumed Fool does read here ... he found us, after all. It's not a criticism of him. I just didn't agree with some of his choices in game. I did compliment his play in another game too.

Frankly Jochi, I think you are letting our historical conflict color your interpretation of me and what I write. Let's really think about what we say on this from this point on. I will remain calm and try to understand the point of view expressed. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. Let's try and let that water under the bridge flow.

I am at still work after a 12 hour day and four hours of sleep, exhausted, and it is my last day here for 12 days before I leave on a trip back west on family business (unfortunately, not a vacation). I'll respond more to this if necessary when I am home and rested a bit.

If you'd prefer not to play with me, I can post when I will be there and when I won't. This weekend I will likely be there; the next, I will be back West and won't be able to attend. Enjoy.

[Noir]

Fool played very well IMO in the battle under discussion, and in every other i've seen of that session and of other sessions that i wasn't there - that is all the more true since as Yuuki says he is a new player to SWs.

Post #16 on this thread (my post) states the above explicitly.

Originally posted by Noir
I realised after watching the replay that it was a very close game - closer than i realised while we were playing. Had Fool's forces stayed on the hill more coherently after the second attack the game would have had another melee phase that the defenders had a good chance of withstanding melee wise and reasonably enough guns to play the end game if needed. Fool played very well; it was indeed true chaos after the 2nd attack and it was impossible to foretell the outcome of decisions made (chase more or not? etc).

Noir

[Puzz3D]

Again, kills are just not a good indicator of overall performance in MP; it's one factor.

Here's more to boost that opinion: Fool sent one NC to help with the initial engagement, and sent it late--into a cav skirmish, in which NC do not excel. It wasn't effective (27 kills). Later, well after I launched my infantry attack, with CBR and Tosa backing me with lots and lots of cav, he sent one ysam to assist. He didn't commit other units until Tosa's cav hit his flank gun unit. Then he sent his YC to chase down Tosa's cav and protect his own guns. Of course he dominated the end game; he didn't do much to help you guys in the opening and mid-game. He got more kills that you did because he cleaned up our exhausted units. But your kills were worth three times his in glory and teamwork.

The last sentence of the previous paragraph in Masa's post clearly indicates he's talking about kills as not being a good indicator of performance. Yes Asanorin's intent was good to actively support me, but we weren't effective enough in terms of inflicting losses on the enemy. Fool probably recognized that Asanorin and I were taking too much risk. We left Fool with a situation where he had to get around 950 kills in order to win, and he had already lost 2 units trying to help us. It's not at all clear that, if he had sent more units to the left, they would have been effective. The truth is that I hadn't seen such aggressive play from Masamune before this game, and I misjudged the situation because of that.

If a player doesn't pull his weight in kills, his allies have to make up the difference. Army size is 900 + the general's unit which puts total army size for each side in a 3v3 at between 2733 and 2880. Looking at the 3v3 game previous to the one under discussion, the winners got 2215 total kills and the loosers got 2187. It was a close battle, and I only got 548 kills in that game. Masa got 735 and CBR got 932. Clearly, CBR made up for my 200 shortage in kills.

The winners of a 3v3 need to average around 700 to 750 kills each. In the final game which is the one we have been discussing, the winners got 2165 total kills and the loosers got 1976 total kills. In one of the other 3v3, winners got 2254 and loosers 2054. In another 3v3 which was a decisive win, the winners got 2424 kills and the loosers got 1495 kills. So it appears that you have to knock out about 80% of the enemy army to win.

[R'as al Ghul]

Moderator's note:
I feel a bit uncomfortable with the turn of the discussion.
I didn't read Masamune's opinion about Fool's play as a personal attack. Criticism yes but nothing out of line.
Jochi's post made me rethink that and I've looked for passages that I might've misinterpreted.
I can see Jochi's point but I think he has misinterpreted Masamune, who has admitted that his posting style may lead to that.
Given Masa's last response and the fact that members have also pointed out how well Fool played, I come to the conclusion that this is not a flaming of a player, but criticism of one style of play and a misunderstanding. Yuuki also pointed out that Fool actually played correctly in that situation.

I know nothing about a past quarrel between Masamune and Jochi. If you have one I'd ask you to clear that in private, please.

The discussion on battles, style of play, tactics and whatever may continue, even if the player in question has no account yet. I think it's fair because a) his real identity is unknown and b) I consider the games "public" and open to discussion. I'll ask Fool to join .org as soon as I meet him, though.

At last I ask you to remember that communication via a text medium is difficult and often leads to misunderstandings.



R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

Fool was there again yesterday and I've asked him to join totalwar.org. I tried to explain to him what's going on here and he said it wasn't his "scene". But he seemed surprised that we engage in a battle "discussion" at all. Perhaps I made him curious enough to check out the forum.

-------------------------

Apologies to Asanorin for double-rushing him and kicking him out of the game so early. It's not exactly good form. To our excuse I've to say that the map and the rain made such a move nessecary.

I still need to work on my micromanagement. Especially gun micro. My teppos were raided two times when I was busy elsewhere. I have rarely used any shortcuts apart from "Group" or "Run" till now but I think I need to start to. Being able to toggle "Fire at will" for the guns quickly is essential.

R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

Remember there is a morale penalty on a unit that is outnumbered by enemy units, and this penalty increases the more the unit is outnumbered. This morale penalty can be as large as -18 if a unit is heavily outnumbered and flanked. So sending a single unit, even if it's a high morale unit, into the proximity of a large number of enemy units will not be effective. I saw a fresh but heavily outnumbered WM with 53 men rout on contact in this battle.

Yuuki,

if two allied armies with 5 units each meet one enemy army with 10 units, do the two smaller armies suffer from being outnumbered each or are the allied units in the vicinity factored in?

R'as

[Puzz3D]

if two allied armies with 5 units each meet one enemy army with 10 units, do the two smaller armies suffer from being outnumbered each or are the allied units in the vicinity factored in?

Allied units in the vicinity (i.e. within 75 meters) are factored in. The only morale penalty that is army specific is the death of the general. However if an army routs as a result of death of the general, it will affect the moral of nearby allied units because they loose any morale support the routing units were providing, and there is a morale penalty to units that are in the proximity of routing friendies. So, if you have a weak unit it may be detrimental to engage that unit within the proximity of allied units because if it routs it will give the allied units a morale penalty.

[Puzz3D]

Apologies to Asanorin for double-rushing him and kicking him out of the game so early. It's not exactly good form.

Doubling an isolated player is a fundamental team strategy. It's very effective against teams that are slow to respond. It's something that players should learn how to handle because it's necessary for a doubled player to survive long enough in order for his team to implement a hammer and anvil counter strategy. Samurai Wars has the necessary defensive capability in the gameplay for a hammer and anvil strategy to work if the hammer moves promptly to hit the flank of the enemy after the anvil is engaged.

[Jochi Khan]

Criticism yes but nothing out of line.

I can see Jochi's point but I think he has misinterpreted Masamune

Throughout my post criticism was the operative word and no mention or indication of anyone 'flaming' a player..
It was Masamune that read otherwise into it. He chose to bring up something that had happened years ago that, as far as I was concerned, was dead and buried and was irrelevant to this post.

I will say no more on this post.

[Puzz3D]

...I come to the conclusion that this is not a flaming of a player, but criticism of one style of play...

Yes that's it. Some players don't want their mistakes pointed out. This kind of analysis is done all the time in chess. I think it's ok as long as the replay is available to prove or disprove the analysis. Maybe some players won't join a group that analyzes games, but other players will join because they benefit from the analysis.

[Noir]

Thanks for the consideration Ra's but there is no need to apologise; i enjoyed particularly that game very much. BTW i was trippled rather than doubled as after Tosa's 4 NC and your YC (2,3?) initial charge CBR smashed in his main line to break my Naginatas, and i think your infantry came upon me too. For a few milliseconds before the charge i felt a certain awe for what i was witnessing (a bit of a Migata-ga-hara feeling) - Tomi felt that too from what he messaged in the team channel..

I did realatively well given the fact that the mount isolated me from assistance for quite some time getting 450+ kills; Masamune in the mean time cleared plenty of Tosa's and CBR's gunners before joining Tomi to the resque resulting in a victory for our team. It was a very enjoyable game, and honestly as i said many times i enjoy watching as much as playing.

The "nothing personal i hope" was a joke and i felt i should put it in the message as parenthesis (joke) as i did to avoid misinterpretations.

Doing fighting retreats in order to escape from the doubleteam in the flank or learning to make a stand against a double team is essential in 3v3's i find. While we were playing mostly 2v2 games, double teams worked less effectively as the defending team is more promptly capable of helping each other due to the smaller space occupied by the armies (less distances to run). 3v3 games on the other hand are less "stable" as dynamic systems as if the double team works effectively then the rest of the defense is bound to collapse very rapidly because of the larger number of units on the field in absolute terms.

I feel that i have accumulated enough experience to be a relatively worthile addition as a co-player and as an opponent in 2v2's - however in 3v3's i have much less experience (i have played only one 3v3 prior to my return last session i think) in what armies to take (that relate to the map and the position that one takes center or flank) and what decisions to make during the game and expectedly i perform better if i am on the flank with an experienced co-player taking the center.

The center position is very tricky as it requires to take leadership decisions (good judgement) as well as giving assistance to the flanks and simultaneously holding the center (good control); conversely i feel that the most challenging 3v3's are those with one of the more experienced players in the group taking up that position in each team.

Noir

[TosaInu]

Hello Noir,

The only thing we knew about that map is that it was large and flat, I knew to be on the flank, so let's take 4 NC, 2 YC, 2 CA, 1 hatamoto, 4 wm and 3 teppo. I was not the only one surprised by the huge hills.

We decided to open the attack on the left, I would move the 4 NC and 2 YC over there, the hill and woods would (almost) cover this manoeuvre. The 2 CA were trying to trick Masamune in believing action would happen there, the infantry was hidden in the forrest and that was big enough to hide a whole army. The six NC/YC moved quickly to the left, a glimpse can be seen in the replay from the defenders side. Masamune moved up, but the CA seemed to do their distraction job.

R'as al Ghul and CBR advanced to the left/left center, everything seemed calm and peaceful and we had a 2.5 force on the left.

We didn't really decide what to do next, but an opportunistic sentiment took control. I decided to launch the attack (more units, CBR was angled to hold off Tomisama, Masamune far away, rain to render Asanorins teppo less effective). The six charged (dense pack to make it look like an innocent skirmish).

R'as quickly charged his cavalry too, but there was no proper infantry backup, the spears would hurt the NC, viewed from a unit matchup it was not too great, but there's more in a battle.

This was what should have happened: CBR's guns were already setup to fence off Tomisama, R'as al Ghul would reinforce CBR's left flank and back with spears and a few guns, his cavalry and shock/other gun and perhaps some of CBR's monk/cavalry (but he would mostly stay where his guns were) would help to remove Asanorins army.

Then it would become a 3v2/3v2.1 and time permitting, the right infantry flank (still concealed) would advance and add extra pressure.

That was my impulsive plan and it was not communicated, sorry for making a mess.

[Noir]

A very nice mess, if i am allowed to say :)

I saw the plan materialised, and it worked; it was Tomi's mass response and Masamune's swift attack on your teppo and circling move on the right that saved the day after quite some hard fighting.

I remember that you employ in lines to hide the intentions and i realised that this was no skirmish when i saw 4 cavalry flags come straight on at full speed!

The monks held back was also brilliant as it would hammer Masamune on the back while assisting.

Noir

[TosaInu]

Uneasy.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

The money, not the karma.

It was a 4vs4 36,000 per team, only 6 players could play and thus everyone had 12k at his disposal. I spent all of it, sorry.

I started to think about the army and the cost this afternoon, but only checked the log just now, hence the uneasy comment.



There were some very good moves in the battle, Masamunes sacrifice of ashis to slow my wm was superb.

[Noir]

Right, in this case i'll alter slightly part of my above post:

"I did realatively exceptionally well given the fact that the mount isolated me from assistance for quite some time getting 450+ kills..."

[TosaInu]

Yes.

[Hunter KIng George]

Gah! I'm missing all the fun...

Hopefully I'll be up and ready this Sunday.

[TosaInu]

Hello Hunter KIng George.

[R'as al Ghul]

Throughout my post criticism was the operative word and no mention or indication of anyone 'flaming' a player..

Yes that's it. Some players don't want their mistakes pointed out. This kind of analysis is done all the time in chess.

Jochi,

I thought that you saw Masamune’s criticism as too much in so far that it borders on a personal attack. I now understand it was only the criticism you object to.(?) Yuuki’s post seems to confirm that.
In that case I’ve to say that I’m all for a discussion of battles and players’ playing styles. I will keep a close eye on the posts and their wording, but discussing and criticizing is generally perfectly alright with me.

R’as

[R'as al Ghul]

Thanks for the consideration Ra's but there is no need to apologise; i enjoyed particularly that game very much. BTW i was trippled rather than doubled as after Tosa's 4 NC and your YC (2,3?) initial charge CBR smashed in his main line to break my Naginatas, and i think your infantry came upon me too. For a few milliseconds before the charge i felt a certain awe for what i was witnessing (a bit of a Migata-ga-hara feeling) - Tomi felt that too from what he messaged in the team channel..

The "nothing personal i hope" was a joke and i felt i should put it in the message as parenthesis (joke) as i did to avoid misinterpretations.
Noir

Doubling an isolated player is a fundamental team strategy. It's very effective against teams that are slow to respond. It's something that players should learn how to handle because it's necessary for a doubled player to survive long enough in order for his team to implement a hammer and anvil counter strategy.

I generally agree with Yuuki but in this particular game though we rushed Asanorin with 6 NC and 4 YC . From my perspective it was as if his army just seized to exist. One second it was there and then it was routing or gone. When Asanorin posted his “nothing personal I hope” I felt a bit guilty that we had kicked him out of the game in such a short time.

R'as

[Noir]

One second it was there and then it was routing or gone.

That's why i said in the chat later on that "i will enjoy the replay, especially the first part as that is the part i saw less"

[Puzz3D]

I generally agree with Yuuki but in this particular game though we rushed Asanorin with 6 NC and 4 YC.

In Samurai Wars you can construct balanced armies that can defeat all cav armies of twice the value.

[Noir]

My line almost held to the initial cavalry charge as i moved my 3 YC and 2 YS forward and they met them.. spear in hand. It was CBR's infantry attack and those cavarly that sneaked on the rear (which i could not hold as... i had no more units to do that) that did the damage as they circled my main line of Naginata's that had entered the fray and cleared the teppos i took behind to avoid the melee.

Noir