Hi all (MP chat)

[Noir]

Hallo Puzz, CBR, Ra's and Tosa

its been a while, i hope you are all doing fine. I will return to the Sunday mp sessions from tomorrow since gladly my life duties are starting to loosen up.

I got a couple of questions:

1. I noticed in a thread in the Jousting fields that Ra's mentions a return to beta_5 due to random desync problems; is beta_5 the version that i need to wear?

2. I also read about a set of larger maps in a thread here; do i need to install that to play?

Thanks in advance and see you all tomorrow

Noir

[CBR]

Yes install the beta5 and mappack to a clean MTW/VI install and you are ready for Sunday. R'as has also released a small addon https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...19#post1649919 but it is not required to play


CBR

[Noir]

[R'as al Ghul]

I smell 4v4's.

[Noir]

Probably something of the order of 4 Vs 3 & 1/2 Ra's it's been a while since i last played TW.

[R'as al Ghul]

Probably something of the order of 4 Vs 3 & 1/2 Ra's it's been a while since i last played TW.

You played well enough.
I've completely missed that my Yari-Cav was shot at by your Archers. When I realized it it had gone to 36 men.
It was so nice being able to play without desyncs. Ok, we had the occasional lag but that didn't interfere too much. Now I only need to work on winning games.

R'as

[Noir]

Thanks Ra's,
i realised that you meant your YC being shot, but i was "trotting" along the battle line to control the reinforcements i've sent against Tomi on the other side of the map and couldn't reply.

Thank you for the games - it was great - after you've retired we played 2 or 3 4v4s i think and 2 or 3 3v3s for a total of 8 hours straight... It was an amazing session even with the moderate lag.

Noir

[R'as al Ghul]

Seems I missed a lot of Fun. I want the replays.
But it's good to hear that 4v4 worked, too.

R'as

[Puzz3D]

Seems like people were having fun because the guys in Europe stayed up all night playing! I posted the replays: five 3v3 and two 4v4. The final 3v3 has a particularly well executed attack, and was probably the best played game of the night. There were no desyncs or drops except for that one game with Warman. He's going to check for a new video driver. The lag might be being caused by my internet connection. Next week I'll sit out of a game, and we'll see if that clears up the lag.

[Jochi Khan]

I finally decided to give Beta 5 a whirl. It's been a long time.
Had to keep 'thinking', been playing RTW and M2TW for so long, a few years now.

Had a great evening/night, yes Yuuki, it was past 2.00am when I went to bed.

[CBR]

Yes it was very long and great session we had yesterday. Lots of good games, good company and chatting


CBR

[Togakure]

Yesterday was great fun, great company, great games. I am sooo glad I was able to get back online to enjoy the afternoon/evening (late night for our Hardcore! European Samurai Warlords). Hope y'all get a good night's sleep tonight, heh.

It was especially nice to have Jochi Khan, Noir/AsanoRin, and Fool join us. Please come again.

I find myself really looking forward to these meets.

Cheers, and thanks all.

[Tomisama]

It sounds like an oxymoron, but I believe is true to say that we are serious about our fun. And that is why it is so intriguing, drawing us back week after week. The Samurai Warlords mod is all about balance. We all have the same money and opportunity for the same units. This places the demands squarely on the player’s skills. And not just their individual prowess, as we play team games, they must excel as team members also.

After this last Sunday, I realize that this to me is the best part. The teamwork is the thing above all else that I enjoy. And I would like to invite any and all who are also serious about their fun, and who also truly enjoy being a member of a team fighting for a common cause, to come out and join us. We have some of the best team players I have ever seen. These guys are the greatest! Come out and see

[TosaInu]

Hello Noir.

[R'as al Ghul]

The final 3v3 has a particularly well executed attack, and was probably the best played game of the night.

Some impressions from that game:
Defenders:
Red - Mori - MizuYuuki/Puzz3D
Fawn - Ryuzoji - Asanorin/Noir
Dark Green - Shimazu - Fool

Attackers:
Light Green - Satake - Masamune
Light Blue - Imagawa - MizuCBR
Blue - Date - MizuTosaInu

[Noir]

Nice screenshots Ra's,

after watching that replay, i realised why the final phase after the attackers stormed the hill was so extremely chaotic: Fool aided by Yuuki and myself managed to beat back with his melee forces the infantry line of the attackers (Masamune and CBR), however his melee forces (WMs,YS & ND) got spread out at the resulting chase. Tosa's numerous cavalry and relatively intact melee infantry made a final push at that time aided by CBR's remaining infantry and deadly-as-always cavalry.

Fool's forces were isolated while chasing off the retreating Masamune and CBR from my last nucleous of teppo and YS on the hill at that time and were off the hill; they were picked off by CBR, Tosa and later Masamune almost one by one. Notably 1 WM, 2 YS and 1 ND of his were routed and chased off almost full strength. Masamune also rallied just before the edge of the map and came back to finish off with the others.

I realised after watching the replay that it was a very close game - closer than i realised while we were playing. Had Fool's forces stayed on the hill more coherently after the second attack the game would have had another melee phase that the defenders had a good chance of withstanding melee wise and reasonably enough guns to play the end game if needed. Fool played very well; it was indeed true chaos after the 2nd attack and it was impossible to foretell the outcome of decisions made (chase more or not? etc).

Myself and Yuuki lost substantial cavalry and melee infantry to very little enemy losses in the initial skirmish and first attack; Yuuki mainly in the skirmish and me while trying to initially aid the skirmish and later while attempting to "cover" his retreating/fleeing infantry units during Masamune's first attack depicted above.

The 1st attack was very good and quite scary; Masamune moved all his line together and Yuuki's forces as can be seen on the 2nd shot were either retreating or on the run; you can see that he is also commiting all his melee reserves. On the right of the 2nd screenshot 2 ND of mine attempted to slow down the attackers bearing the grunt as well as very few men of my YC that moves to meet Msamune's. BTW that screenshot is probably the last time anyone saw them.

*edit* = Needless to say that Tosa and CBR coordinated with the 1st attack very well. Notice for instance Tosa's Naginata Cavalry that charged my ND and the other that is about to engage Yuuki's WMs. The effect was deadly as the defending forces already outnumbered and half surrounded either routed or got flanked and exterminated to the last. For the truth of that, notice that Yuuki is left with something more than 2 depleted melee units on the 3rd screenshot that covers the shootout after the defenders retrenched on the hill.

It was really a great game as are most on these sessions. I think i can safely say that Samurai Wars mp is the best TW experience that i've ever had and as things look, the best TW experience that i will ever have.

Many thanks to all that worked to produce this exceptional gameplay (with lovely aesthetic touches like the great mons etc) and to all that had the willingness & patience to introduce me into it.

Noir

[Puzz3D]

I did manage to get 759 kills, but it would have been more prudent for me to initially deploy along the line shown in the 3rd image that R'as posted.

[Noir]

I was by far the least effective of our team getting just over 450 kills i think (470?) and so costing us dearly.

The main reasons probably were:

1. I helped the skirmish initially with the wrong unit (HC instead of YC) and almost sacrificed one YC as it arrived to the skirmish too late - i had better saved it.

2. Twice small parts of my melee infantry were anhihilated trying to buy time during the first and second assaults. On second thought it would have been better to keep them tight and commit them with Fool's troops in the second assault.

3. Last but not least my last pocket of men (3-4 teppos and 2 YS) were isolated by Fool's infantry at the chase. I reckon that had our forces stayed closer we had a better chance - but it happen otherwise.

There were plenty of lessons to learn and re-learn for me in that game.

Noir

[Togakure]

In my review of replays, I find myself thinking: "Why the heck did I do that?" or "Why the heck didn't I do this?!" It's humorous and annoying at the same time. Really, we can analyze replays up the yin-yang, but making effective use of what we see is a long time coming. Knowing is easy; doing isn't, etc.

During the featured battle, there was one point in the initial cav skirmish where I saw CBR's YC coming right behind me as I charged Yuuki's second YC unit. I decided in a flash to divert my YC's charge, to backstab Yuuki's other YC that was refusing to kow-tow on the far flank (*shakes fist at Yuuki*). I figured CBR's cav would intercept Yuuki's second YC in the flank or rear as it chased me, and we'd get both without big losses.

Unfortunately, CBR saw the farside backstab opportunity at the same time and saw where I was initially headed, and diverted for the far flank as well. As it turned out, my YC got hit in the side as I tried to correct back to Yuuki's second YC, and CBR also slowed and turned. My second YC unit took a bigger hit than it needed to despite eventually driving off Yuuki's YC. CBR ended up getting in a great charge against AsanoRin's incoming support YC--connecting right through the middle of Yuuki's CA, which routed them instantly.

Battle dynamics--when we watch replays we think Gah! it's so obvious! But it really isn't in the heat of the moment. There are only a handful of players I've seen (not that I've played MP nearly as much as some) who eventually develop that "no mind"-ish sense, where in this example, I would intuit what CBR would do, and he would know what I would do. I think this comes with a lot of games played together, and a certain amount of natural blend in style of play.

It was my army's "honor" to be the vanguard of the attack in that battle, but taking my entire infantry line in when I did was not my commander's idea, but my rather opportunistic (some would say "reckless") nature. I'm not a big fan of the long drawn out shooter game--reminds me too much of smoking an entire pack of cigarettes waiting for a pav war to finish in VI. CBR was probably having heart palpitations when he saw me go in with everything, heh.

I've noticed most of you keep reserves. In this mod this seems to work especially well because units rally a lot, much more than in STW MI 1.02 MP (which is the TW MP game I've played the most). In MI, if you routed the enemy's main line in your attack, chances were that your enemy would rout completely, and even if some stalwarts managed to rally, it was not difficult to rout them again permanently afterward. Hence, most used their infantry line as a carefully timed and precisely executed all-or-nothing attack like I tried to do here. As far as I was concerned, CBR and Tosa were my reserves, and my job in the vanguard was to hit, and hit hard. Your team did a great job in halting my momentum before I gained the hill, and CBR wisely held back the majority of his infantry despite my troops eventually getting pushed back and away. During the game I was thinking "Gah! ... put the sake away and git your monk butts up here, CBR!" But watching the replay, it made sense. Fool was camped for the most part, waiting to take advantage of the late battle after we'd tired ourselves out--a static but prudent decision considering your team's superior position, and that two enemy armies were expending themselves with vigor but not yet threatening the heart of your formation.

In that game I got less kills than in the others. But I felt I did a much better job in my role than in the other games that day, and it was much more exhilirating. This is an example of why I don't think using kills as the sole metric is a good way to determine performance in a battle.

TosaInu is so often an "unsung hero" in these games. During the battle, I hardly noticed what he was doing until my attack was spent and I took a backseat for the remainder of the game. Watching the replay, it was brilliant to see Tosa all over the map, assisting CBR and me here and there and everywhere very effectively. In the end, it was Tosa who saved the day for us.

In another thread, I commented on how chasing routing units can be tricky, and this game was an example of why. Seemingly eager for kills, Fool chased some pretty small, low-threat units clear across the map, giving our remaining units and Tosa's relatively fresh units time to clean up the hill. If he had returned sooner, I think things might have turned out differently.

I've not seen anyone use an ashigaru unit as general until that game. I figured it was pumped with upgrades, but my log file proves otherwise. An odd choice, that. I wonder what the rationale behind it was.

[Noir]

Tosa is simply deadly; his armies fight with mobility, tenacity, snipping and wearing down and with calculated precision of deployment during attacks that he often executes in calculated infantry waves with cavalry flankings @ key times and locations.

[Togakure]

I was by far the least effective of our team getting just over 450 kills i think (470?) and so costing us dearly.

The main reasons probably were:

1. I helped the skirmish initially with the wrong unit (HC instead of YC) and almost sacrificed one YC as it arrived to the skirmish too late - i had better saved it.

2. Twice small parts of my melee infantry were anhihilated trying to buy time during the first and second assaults. On second thought it would have been better to keep them tight and commit them with Fool's troops in the second assault.

3. Last but not least my last pocket of men (3-4 teppos and 2 YS) were isolated by Fool's infantry at the chase. I reckon that had our forces stayed closer we had a better chance - but it happen otherwise.

There were plenty of lessons to learn and re-learn for me in that game.

Noir

Well, I must disagree with you here. Your support of Yuuki was not badly timed, and crucial. Yuuki (and for that matter, CBR and Tosa) can do with one unit what I need two or three to do, so you not only helped preserve the assets of a shrewd general (*shakes fist at Yuuki*), but depleted mine significantly. Your nods, in tandem with Yuuki's monks, halted my momentum and prevented me from reaching the hill. Even though Fool's many infantry were there (and your other half), CBR's infantry was waiting to pounce, and Tosa had his full infantry on the other side to sandwich. If I had reached the hill and spent myself, chances are good that in pursuit of my retreating troops (heh, I like that word "retreating" ...), Fool's infantry would have met both CBR's and Tosa's main infantry, and the remainder of our cav. Not good odds there. You played a pivotal role in your team's defense. Again, kills are just not a good indicator of overall performance in MP; it's one factor.

Here's more to boost that opinion: Fool sent one NC to help with the initial engagement, and sent it late--into a cav skirmish, in which NC do not excel. It wasn't effective (27 kills). Later, well after I launched my infantry attack, with CBR and Tosa backing me with lots and lots of cav, he sent one ysam to assist. He didn't commit other units until Tosa's cav hit his flank gun unit. Then he sent his YC to chase down Tosa's cav and protect his own guns. Of course he dominated the end game; he didn't do much to help you guys in the opening and mid-game. He got more kills that you did because he cleaned up our exhausted units. But your kills were worth three times his in glory and teamwork.

I don't understand the tendency to think so much in terms of cost and match-ups in this group (I affectionately think of it as "Yuuki-itis," lol). It's just not that simple. The dynamic factors--terrain, weather, timing, speed, formation, grouping and positioning, style and moment-to-moment choices by team mates on the field and how you respond to them--wreak havoc on the numbers and one-to-one unit matching in my opinion.

I hope I'm not sounding overly critical here, it's just my opinion. It was a great game.

[Noir]

My positioning was generally correct - however when it comes down to the actual numbers they betray the fact that several of my units were eliminated or routed before inflicting casualties that would have given other members of the team a better chance - i think the numbers or the Yuuki-itis if you want, tell an undisputable part of the story - not necessarily as you say the full story, but nonetheless.

For instance i should have moved the YC first for the initial skirmish - the HC could help better in melee against infantry; also i should have combined the 2 ND with a YS that would have make their life duration better against Tosa's NC. And finally i should have grouped my two monks and stay behind Fool and close to my guns on the hill.

It was a really great game nonetheless :)

Noir

[R'as al Ghul]

I don't understand the tendency to think so much in terms of cost and match-ups in this group (I affectionately think of it as "Yuuki-itis," lol). It's just not that simple. The dynamic factors--terrain, weather, timing, speed, formation, grouping and positioning, style and moment-to-moment choices by team mates on the field and how you respond to them--wreak havoc on the numbers and one-to-one unit matching in my opinion.

I hope I'm not sounding overly critical here, it's just my opinion. It was a great game.

Yuuki-itis!
Yes I guess we're all infected to different degrees but that doesn't nessecarily mean that we think in spreadsheets when playing. Nevertheless, it's important to know the rules of the game and that includes match-ups. But match-ups are only the basics when considering what unit to engage with which. The dynamic factors, as you call them, are important modifiers for the basic match-up rules. They can be expressed in numbers, too.
However, in the heat of a battle like the one we've been discussing, you can't always make solid number based decisions, I agree with you there. What helps in those situations is the fact that the whole "unit vs unit" is very intuitive and logical.

R'as

[Togakure]

My positioning was generally correct - however when it comes down to the actual numbers they betray the fact that several of my units were eliminated or routed before inflicting casualties that would have given other members of the team a better chance - i think the numbers or the Yuuki-itis if you want, tell an undisputable part of the story - not necessarily as you say the full story, but nonetheless.

For instance i should have moved the YC first for the initial skirmish - the HC could help better in melee against infantry; also i should have combined the 2 ND with a YS that would have make their life duration better against Tosa's NC. And finally i should have grouped my two monks and stay behind Fool and close to my guns on the hill.

It was a really great game nonetheless :)

Noir

Your nods sure did better in one-to-one matchups than mine. I can only figure mine didn't get up velocity for a good charge, and were probably co-mingling and thus losing combat efficiency. I expected my nods to lose to Yuuki's monks without assistance from support units, but I thought I'd do much better, much faster against your nods. As it turned out, yours only broke when I brought my ashigaru unit behind and attacked from the rear.

I tease about the number-emphasis because I am more of an intuitive player than a numbers player (in real life I'm often the opposite, which is odd). I think that's why my play is mediocre when facing human calculators ( again, with affection--it's a drag no one can hear my voice when I post here, as I tend to "speak" with a lot of tongue-in-cheek and self-mockery that isn't apparent in written word).

Your team's cav did well (and I made some critically poor choices in the heat of it all). We had Yuuki's cav outnumbered at the onset of the skirmish, and when you responded we brought our Gens in, and Tosa brought some over too. We had really tipped the numbers in our favor at that point. Yet, your team managed to reduce my cav by about two-thirds (3200 koku value; a third of my total army investment), which clipped my claws nicely. A good thing CBR and Tosa had plenty of cav in that game to support during and after, and tend to have better unit control and be less impetuous than me.

[Puzz3D]

I don't understand the tendency to think so much in terms of cost and match-ups in this group (I affectionately think of it as "Yuuki-itis," lol). It's just not that simple. The dynamic factors--terrain, weather, timing, speed, formation, grouping and positioning, style and moment-to-moment choices by team mates on the field and how you respond to them--wreak havoc on the numbers and one-to-one unit matching in my opinion.

I agree with you that dynamic factors are very important, and can offset loss of material. However, a dynamic advantage is temporary, and must be capitalized upon in a timely way otherwise you will be left with the material loss without compensation. That material loss will be significant in Samurai Wars if you don't get good matchups because you can't use upgrades to moderate the differences in combat power between the unit types. The morale is also high enough that you can't depend on chain routing a fresh enemy army simply by outnumbering it, although, outnumbering does cause units to rout sooner than they would otherwise. There is a balance between attritional and positional gameplay in this mod, so both are important.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I might return this Sunday.... Depends on how I feel and rather or not BF2 is running around my ass.

Best Experpience I ever had, is here on Samurai Warlords :-)

[Puzz3D]

My positioning was generally correct - however when it comes down to the actual numbers they betray the fact that several of my units were eliminated or routed before inflicting casualties that would have given other members of the team a better chance - i think the numbers or the Yuuki-itis if you want, tell an undisputable part of the story - not necessarily as you say the full story, but nonetheless.

Remember there is a morale penalty on a unit that is outnumbered by enemy units, and this penalty increases the more the unit is outnumbered. This morale penaly can be as large as -18 if a unit is heavily outnumbered and flanked. So sending a single unit, even if it's a high morale unit, into the proximity of a large number of enemy units will not be effective. I saw a fresh but heavily outnumbered WM with 53 men rout on contact in this battle. This was during the second attack near the small hill on the defender's left. When I saw the enemy infantry advancing, I messaged to pull back from the left, but I guess you missed it. In the replay, you can see my teppo pull out and head for the main hill which is just after I issued the message.

Outnumbered 2 to 1: up to -4 (range = about 75 meters)
Outnumbered 10 to 1: up to -12 (range = about 75 meters)
Outclassed in quality and speed: modifies the outnumbered penalty.
One flank threatened: -2 (range = about 60 meters)
Two flanks threatened: -6 (range = about 60 meters

For instance i should have moved the YC first for the initial skirmish - the HC could help better in melee against infantry; also i should have combined the 2 ND with a YS that would have make their life duration better against Tosa's NC. And finally i should have grouped my two monks and stay behind Fool and close to my guns on the hill.

I sent my remaining infantry in to support the units that you sent in to support the units that I already had engaged. I was trying to retrieve the YS, but Masa's infantry attack caught me by surprise, and the two YS were lost. It was a case of trying to support each other in a situation where we should have fallen back, and not tried to save the first cav units already commited. Fool is actually playing correctly by not sending his units into a hopeless situation.

[Togakure]

Not a lot of time, but to clarify my comments:

I meant your HC, not YC, in my stories above AsanoRin. Noticed in additional reviews of the replay and conversation with CBR. Thought it was a YC initially, and that your HC was on the far side for some reason.

My opinions about Fool's gameplay extend to several games, and I still think his inactivity during the skirmishes and initial attack put you two in a difficult position. CBR, Tosa and I were all in motion. There were points during and after the infantry attack where a unit or two of his would have made a different for you guys imo. But we can analyze it to death ... it was what it was.
On the flip side, Fool's support of Tomi in the first game I played in was exemplary. An interesting contrast to his playing in the subsequent games.

[Puzz3D]

My opinions about Fool's gameplay extend to several games, and I still think his inactivity during the skirmishes and initial attack put you two in a difficult position.

If ShingenMitch had been playing at defender's center, he would have said "refuse the flank", and I could have stayed out there confident that he would send adequate support to do that. In this case, it would have been his whole army, and Asanoirin would move over to center. It's not my place to say refuse the flank because I don't control the center army.

If the center ally is going to stay at home, the wingman really has no choice other than to fall back in the face of a double team close to the center ally. However, if the defenders compress their armies too much, they will suffer many back kills during the teppo skirmish. It's not as though I'd be dropping straight back. I'd be falling back into Fool's army which is why I was reluctant to fall back all the way to the high ground.

An alternative strategy would be a counter double team attack on Tosa by Fool and Asanorin. I'd do my best to block Masamune and CBR from coming to assist Tosa.

[Jochi Khan]

It is a shame that an otherwise great fun evening/night should be spoilt IMO by this so called analising.
From Post#16 onwards this Topic has detereated, again IMO. These types of posts are not constructive.
I only hope that Fool is not a member of .Org. Just imagine his reaction on reading this....

Here's more to boost that opinion: Fool sent one NC to help with the initial engagement, and sent it late--into a cav skirmish, in which NC do not excel. It wasn't effective (27 kills). Later, well after I launched my infantry attack, with CBR and Tosa backing me with lots and lots of cav, he sent one ysam to assist. He didn't commit other units until Tosa's cav hit his flank gun unit. Then he sent his YC to chase down Tosa's cav and protect his own guns. Of course he dominated the end game; he didn't do much to help you guys in the opening and mid-game. He got more kills that you did because he cleaned up our exhausted units. But your kills were worth three times his in glory and teamwork.

Suddeny Masamune ............ I'll say no more.
That is enough to turn away a player. I am not so sure that I would want to be involved with this type of play.

Samurai Warlords is having difficulties getting enough players as it is to make MP viable.