Asia ton Barbaron disscusion thread

[Leão magno]

consider rename greeks by the two great alliancesof the period instead o KH

[Zaknafien]

good luck guys, this is a big project to take on with all the scripting and mapping re-working involved. Maybe you'll motivate someone to start a Roman-focused mod that I can help on!

Cheers!

[Pharnakes]

I thought you were already doing the late period?


And, thoughts I had on the Atropatenes and Romanoi during my biology and chemistry lectures :


They should start off poor, with a unit roster consiting of just the basic persian lineup, which is pretty much already in EB. Give them 1 or 2 unique units to spice things up a bit. Poss access to pantodapoi phal factionaly in this period, but I don't think it should be. BG cav should be an elite median skirmeshier type in this period, poss we could use the old pontika spahafet as a place holder, or even as the finnal (I think it would be well suited)

They should then have alternitive reforms, in a one or the other from, once they have conquered media, syria, mespotamia and persia.

They should be able to build stone walls (max for most civ factions, max for all greek factions?)



2cnd Reform, Persian. Effectively transforms the Atropatenes into the achemnid dyansty in terms of miliatry. No greek units avalible factionaly, and few avalible in local mics (to repreent the fact that the persians would probably expell the greeks, or would they? IDK, anyone, TPC, got an opinion here?)

Acces to elites now: Imortals? Chariots? anyone know the achemnid dynasties feelings on the use of elies?

BD cav should be persian royal cav, lik in game atm, but even more grandiose skin, slightly bosted stats.

Poss type 4 gov should have the old BD cav (pontika spahafet). (appointing persain rulers not greek, as persians are completly dominant)


If the atropatenes chose to beome the persain empire reborn, less trade, slightly outdated military, increased stability and loyalty.

Able to build large stone walls?

If pos, force their capital to be baylon, representing their refusals to change and adapt to the greeks?






2cnd Reform, Greek Effectivley make the Atropatenes into a second Seleukidai, only approched from a persain perspective rather than a greek perspective. Thus plenty of mid tier greeks avalible, kelruchikoi phalignitai, Keleruchikoi agema (not as good as the Ptolies elites, but I can't think of anything else to call them atm).

Shouldn't have pezhies, cause they were citizens of fairly high standing, would be like that under persian rule (not even the philhellenic pontics had acess to true pezhies, mostly just leve pike).

Elites: Some form of perso-hellenic heavy cav, maybe cataphracts? (rather poor ones though), maybe catas should be a sepertae refom, like the seluks current one, avalible to the Atropatenes either way they go?

Also acess to thurephoroi, peltastai, prodromoi, poss thorakitai?

BD cav should be a perso-hellenic hybrid, along the lines of the Pontic late BD cav (use them as a place holder for moment)

Type 4 gov BD should be lonchophoroi? maybe thorakitai? prodromoi? (greek, anyway, representing the persians acceptence of greek culture and population)

More trade and more up to date military if they choose the greek way, more probs with rebelions. (seleuk attempts to re-emerge)

Stuck with stone walls?

Anyway to force them to have the capital at seleukia? represents them moving with the times, apadting to greek setellers?



Romaioi

Reforms:

Marians: Required: 25 settlements including:Pella, Ambrakia, Thermon, Demetrias, Korinthos, Athenai, Sparta, Byzantion, Rohdos.

Maks, at least one southern greek faction must be dead. 10 type 2 govs. Year <145bc. 3 royal barracks, 5 army barracks.

Imp: don't think they should be in, waste of space for an uplyable faction, spec since their stats are identical, only for the looks really, and if not playable, then

However if I am over rulled then:

Imp reforms: Required: 50 settlements including: Pella, Athenai, Rhodos, Pergamon, Byzantion, Antiocheia, Alexandriea, Sinope, Heirsolyma, Sidon, Kyreneia.

Eliminated: Maks, both KH's, Pontus, Kryrenacia, Galatia. 25 tpye 2s. year <45bc, 6 royal barracks, 10 army barracks.


other thoughts:

Provs to be included: Tyre. Some more in Meospotamia. more along the nile.
More for kyrene (cant remember the names you gave me malik ).

Whoosh

Done Apologies for the apalling spelling and presentation, like I said I scribled these down while listening with half (well, at least a quater) of an ear to biology/chemistry lectures.

plenty of comments please people!

[Strategos Alexandros]

This looks good I think you could perhaps have the partohellenikoi Thureophoroi for Atropatene and not have imperial reforms because the AI will probably never reach them anyway.

[Bootsiuv]

I'm researching Atropatene for these guys right now....my big uni library has gazillions of books...I'm hoping I can find something on the military of Media Atropatene (as it was known to the greeks)....although I would prefer if we could find what they called themselves, as most EB civs are done that way IIRC.

I'll let ya'll know if I came across anything later today.

Bootsiuv

[Pharnakes]

I am just aclling them atropatene cause thats what tpc called em, I know nothing else about them at all , all of the above was merely speculation.

[Bootsiuv]

Well....I figured that Media Atropatene was akin to Arche Seleukeia, so I thought it might be more interesting....but your the developers, I'm just here to help do some of the leg work.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Actually, the Medea Atropatene (After the council in Babylon, it was just called Atropatene, according to a few named after the Achaemenid satrap Atropates) was rather conservative, and allegedly the least Hellenized out of all areas in Êrânshahr; This would have been especially true around the areas in Shîz and Ganzacas. Militarily, they would resemble the late Achaemenids. In liberal conjecture a reform should resemble a mix of Hayasdan and Pahlava-influenced elites. Any cavalry would have been of rather high quality but somewhat limited, much thanks to the vicinity of excellent grazing grounds; Medea was just like for the Seleucids also the centre for breeding heavy-boned horses for the Parthians. As such, Atropatene could by all means be properly portrayed with the current line-up of Iranian units, and perhaps a unique late cavalry bodyguard; Sort of a mix of the Heavy Persian Cavalry, Hye Sparapet and Grivpanvar. An apt early bodyguard would be the Persian Heavy Cavalry (Khûveshâvagân Shâhvâr). One could presumably start fantasizing about temple guards and such due to the sacred nature of the cities in Atropatene, but this is not attested. In fact, their historical roster would be in all honesty be quite unoriginal. Chariots? No. Not that they were unaware of of previous Achaemenid usage of these vehicles, but these were not low-lands. It may just be my dislike for them, but hey, if it helps to diversify their possible army, then I'm fine with it.

There are the Cardaces (Arteshtâr Kardakâ), a vast array of Iranian foot-archers, high-landers and an equally solid array of Medeo-Persian cavalry; Nothing else is really needed. If Parthia was "Aedui", then Atropatene would be the "Arverni" if one wants to see it in this way. An Atropatene faction would start out in a single province, or in respect to the new map perhaps two provinces (With cities Shîz and Ganzacas, which is where the citadel of Phrâspâ is), where each city in contrast to the rather rural area are actually quite impressively fortified and not easily taken. So they will most definitely have defensive qualities and very respectable elites in the form of heavy cavalry and foot-archers; On horse-archers, they will be lacking, lest we speak of light cavalry merely armed with bows; They would be of lower quality than the Bandakâ of the Pahlavân. It might even become another aspect of Atropatene reforms; Adopting greater quality horse-archers. Other than that, what Pahlava can recruit in the Greater Iran (Which equals about everything, excluding Iranian speaking nomads in the steppes), the Atropatene should match it. After all they are the heirs of a flexible military tradition and structure.

Of course, when one tends to think about the "heirs" of Achaemenid military tradition, one cannot help but bring back the image of the Immortals/Apple-bearers. However this is risky business. Atropates made himself de facto king and defied Seleucid rule, but we have no information available if he reinstated the office of the Immortals. That he must've had a respectable bodyguard retinue is not a matter of dispute: Such a unit may be named, if we take many liberties, Âyârîg-î Âtarêpâtâ, or even Âyârîg-î Âzarbâd, an ecclesiastical type elite that guarded Atropates, by the hint of his name (Protector/Master of the fire) possibly a chief-priest.

Though Atropatene was poor in finances (It must've been), mostly due to their lack of land and their constant squabbling with the Seleucids, it is no testament to their abilities in commerce; The Parthians too started out poor, only to blossom into a commercial colossus, both by land and sea. The only true distinction between Atropatene and the Parthians is that he former must've still abided by the purely satrapal organization, while the latter integrated satrapies into the nomadic structure of tribal districts, conceiving a form of Iranian feudalism that lived well into pre-Chosroïd Sassanian Iran. This means that Atropatene does not have the same flexibility as the Pahlava government, but on the other hand will be able to build a full Eastern roster of buildings quicker than the Pahlava who must go through the land reforming process. In exception to Pahlava's abilities in nomadism and pastoralism, Atropatene would in spirit have an identical roster of buildings.

Hope this helped! Good luck, boys... You are taking on a very ambitious task, and should you be able to succeed you have done something unique and extraordinary.

[Admetos]

Great information there Pesian Catapharact, that should help us greatly.

Also, thanks for the encouragement from both you and Zak, it's always good to get encouragement from the EB team.

[Bootsiuv]

Wow, TPC. Informative and helpful as always. I see 'Medea Atropatene' may not be accurate a name, afterall. In my earnest to go to the library today, I couldn't help but Wiki Atropatene, just for s***s and giggles. That's what I get for reading Wiki (actually, usually very handy IMO).

[Pharnakes]

Thanks, TPC, that is brilliant. Hmm, chariots as reform then maybe? once they have expanded a bit...

Your right atm they're going to be a bit unexciting, just made up of the generic perso/iranian units that just about anyone can recruit, we need to find a way to inject a bit of life into them. As for the imortals, I have never really been for their favour in any mod (except maybe rise of persia).

Hmm, we could try giving them access to some uber median jav cav, I suppose, prehaps an elite form of the current georgian medium infantry to give their foot a bit of a chance to counter the selukidai elites?

From what you have said, it seems to me that in their core military they will be almost synomus with Hai and Pahalavi, but the later 2 will have heavier cav. Therefore it seems logical to me to give their infantry a bit of a boost.

Ugh, now we come back to the imortals again, we're going to need to give em something to counter the hordes of armoured horse archers, and armoured elite foot archers would be just the thing... I suppose you don't have to call them imortals...

Maybe we should make their starting rosster almost identical to parthia minus the high end steppe cav, then give them a reform once they have expanded out in to mesopotamia and persia. Give them access to a few elite infs, plus make their basic spahabara unit slightly better, maybe. Also acces to the full glories of late achemnid cav, now that they have a large enough country to pay for them again, plus also maybe chariots.Maybe also a slightly hellenised unit? using the xyston?

Also what do you think about cataphracts? I think i reform along the lines of the current seleukid one would be in order...

Ohh, and I spoke to koba. He said he will probably let us have a sub forum.

[The Persian Cataphract]

We must pay in mind that Atropatene outlived the Seleucid hegemony in Iran proper, and managed to retain a degree of autonomy during early Parthian rule and during Tigranes' reign when the area was annexed. Afterwards when the Parthians regained it did it become a fully-fledged district of the Parthian and later Sassanian empires; Therefore we have to retain a bit of skepticism towards certain Hellenic-influenced conventions, and definitely consider cataphracts, be it by a customized reform or a Seleucid'esque cataphract-reform. This should also entail horse-archers. So in their blossoming late game they would resemble a western-Iranian flavour of a Parthian military spectrum, very dependent on cavalry, yet able to field infantry of some quality (Hyrcanians, Takabara-type axemen, Cardaces, foot-archers... Heck you may even want to consider an ecclesiastical elite foot infantry or as a part of later reforms, combat infantry akin to the Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi.

I'm not going to be negative towards chariots, but I would like it if they were a bit different from the Seleucid and Pontic Drepanophora Harmata; I can provide some pictures on horse-furniture, and how an armoured charioteer would look like. Since we are discussing the reinstating of the very beloved Pontika Spahet within the team, there is a chance that with a few adjustments it might just fit into the prized role as a decaying, but still respectable office of heavy cavalry with skirmishing abilities. We originally scrapped it because it was too remniscient of the popular but flawed plate on Cyrus' (The Younger) bodyguard cavalry, by John Warry.

However I cannot stress the conservatism of the area enough; It may be inflated but the account of the Ardâ Vîrâz is of immense weight, as it venerates Atropates as some sort of a protector against Alexander's oppression against Zoroastrianism (There are accounts on destruction of books and scrolls, and surprisingly a passage sympathetic to the Parthians in their quest of restoring the Avestâ... Very notable, since the Sassanians did their utmost to discredit the Parthians). There is already a Xyston-armed unit; The Kinsmen cavalry, but it more due to the cavalry-reforms of Darius III Codomannus prior to the battle of Gaugamela.

By omitting high-end steppe cavalry I surmise we are talking about units such as Dahae armoured nobles, Roxolani lancers and whatnot. In the end, Atropatene late cavalry should reflect Parthian late heavy cavalry; In fact, thanks to the need of the Medean pastures, I think the Parthian access to these grazing grounds in the first place paved way for even heavier cavalry. Chariots are conjectural and based more on hypothesized traditionalism and "what-if"-scenario. As such I actually advocate for early access to chariots if these are to be in the late Achaemenid style. Later on, the Iranian peoples started to shift over to increasingly heavier cavalry. We cannot break this trend; Chariotry was becoming obsolete as a concept of war, like it or not.

[Pharnakes]

Very hepful again,TPC, thank you very much. I think I am starting to get a "feel" for the faction, also could you recomend any books on late achaemenid military? (and any other subjects relevant to thsi faction)

We must pay in mind that Atropatene outlived the Seleucid hegemony in Iran proper, and managed to retain a degree of autonomy during early Parthian rule and during Tigranes' reign when the area was annexed. Afterwards when the Parthians regained it did it become a fully-fledged district of the Parthian and later Sassanian empires; Therefore we have to retain a bit of skepticism towards certain Hellenic-influenced conventions

Ok, so no factional greek troops. Also I was meaning to ask you, if the Atropatenes had regained dominace from the Seleukidai, how do you feel they would have treated the greek setlers? tolerated them? expelled them?

definitely consider cataphracts, be it by a customized reform or a Seleucid'esque cataphract-reform

Ok cataphracts are in then, yes you are right they are following the direction the late achaemenid kings were taking to its logical conclusion. Heavy horse archers I am not so sure about, maybe also a Seleukdai type reform for them as well, but harder to fufill the conditions? to represent the fact that it is a slightly diferent direction of development needed to create them?

I'm not going to be negative towards chariots

Glad to hear it sorry I have a one track mind Pics of Achaemenid chariots would be great. It just seems to me that as they were such a symbol of the epitome of Achaemenid shock tactics on the battlefield, any nation attempting to revive the empire would recruit them, if only largely for cerimonial purposes. Not a high priority unit, though.

Since we are discussing the reinstating of the very beloved Pontika Spahet within the team, there is a chance that with a few adjustments it might just fit into the prized role as a decaying, but still respectable office of heavy cavalry with skirmishing abilities

I was thinking along the line of a few minor touch ups to the current skins (different colours, slight different armour), I think they would then represent the more old fashioned section of Median nobility admirably. This is good cause ATM we have very little modding/skining skill on the team, but if we can cobble something together from bits and piecies, then we will hopefuly be able to attract some true talent.


[QUOTE]However I cannot stress the conservatism of the area enough[QUOTE]

Ok, so definately no Greeks then.

By omitting high-end steppe cavalry I surmise we are talking about units such as Dahae armoured nobles, Roxolani lancers and whatnot. In the end, Atropatene late cavalry should reflect Parthian late heavy cavalry

Again thanks alot for all the time you are putting into this


And if there is anything I can do in return, then you need only ask. I have already put a post in th eb help required thread, but I forgot to say that I am now at uni in St.Andrews, If there are any books/texts you are having difficulty getting your hands on, there is a fair bet I can get them, all members of the uni now have acess to a comunal databse that involves nearly 50 universities worldwide, making all material avalible to all.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I'll provide the pictorial goodies on the chariots later; For now a bit good reading on Atropatene...

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic.../v3f1a020.html

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic...3/v10f382.html

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic.../v3f6a015.html

Not too much literature of quality is available on the Persian military; For something easily read, and a good introduction on the whole matter, I'll recommend the Osprey title of "The Persian Army" written by Nick Sekunda, and Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's latest Osprey title "Shadows In The Desert: Persia At War". To "follow-up" on the whole military development of ancient Iran, you might want to read Pete Wilcox's Osprey "Rome's Enemies 3: The Parthians and Sassanian Persians", resp. Dr. David Nicolle's "Rome's Enemies 5: The Desert Frontier", Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's "Elite Sassanian Cavalry", and the rare Montvert title "Sassanian Armies" by Dr. David Nicolle. They are all easy to read and if one can be forgiving of some quirks, it is better with an all-round knowledge first than to immediately delve into the esoteric writings at the academical level.

[KuKulzA]

As I said to you before, Malik...

You realize expanding this to south/central Asia as well as more of Ethiopia in Africa will require a shitload of work? If you are fully committed... I will do research... primarily on the Mauryans as that is why I wanted to help in the first place. But when those guys are well taken care of, perhaps I will help research others. I'm fairly good at history, but I am possibly stronger at concept art and drawing, graphic designing (computer 2-d work) is a skill I am working on.

I will research Mauryans, and get back to you on that, let me know if I can help in other ways.

on the note, does anyone have any resources in mind that would be great for the Mauryans and India of that 300 BC and onwards? particularly war and statecraft. That could give me a good place to start going in depth. Thanks.

EDIT:
by the way, I do not have BI.exe, therefore I hope this doesn't require BI cause if it does, I won't be able to enjoy the fruit of my labor - a.k.a. this mod if it is completed
also I hope that can be made to be a separate installation where you can work parallel to EB and not interfere with RTW or EB

[KuKulzA]

1. Makedonia
2. Atropatene
3. Koinon Hellenon
4. KH shadow faction
5. Kyrenaica
6. Pergamon
7.Pontus
8. Hai
9. Ptolomaioi
10. Selukidai
11. Pahalava
12. Boshphorian kingdom
13. Baktria
14. Saka
15. Mayuran empire
16. Indo greeks
17. Galatians
18. Saba
19. Romans (ermergent 220-170bc)
20. Yeuhzi (emergent whenever)

sounds cool, though I wonder what about the Getai, Tamil, Nepalese, Wusun, Xionghu as an invading group to drive the Wusun around, what about Meroe and/or Ethiopia?

I definitely see a Euro/Mid-east preferrence in terms of faction roster... but we cannot totally ignore the others. Didn't the Dravidians of S. India and Sri Lanka resist the Mauryans during the Kalinga campaign and were known to hav some of the best war elephants? The Nepalese were fierce and known to be a very tenacious nation. The Getic tribes and Thracians were feared by Greeks due to their tenacity... Wusun might seem redundant, but remember they (liek the Sauromatae in EB) have no perks allowing for settlement, the Saka have Indo-Saka reforms, and the Pahlava have theirs... but not the Wusun - who are also a more oriental seeming faction..

just some thoughts... being too Euro/Mideast-centric can be a bad thing

[Pharnakes]

On the whole I agree that it is too westen centered, but, who would we scrap? The galatians are on avery tenous link ATM,but they will probably be in on the basis that they are already all but complete.

Thesame goes for KH shadow, Kyrene and Attalids, easy factions to make quickly, but they are stil very much "provisonaly"

Probs another eaon why the rooster is western biased is that both Malik and I know alot more about the west than the east, hence with inly us to decide, it is prehaps ineviatblethat a certain weterly tilt should come into it. Hopefuly you will be able to correct that!

[KuKulzA]

perhaps...

Kyrene, KH Shadow, and Attalids... what new things do they bring to the mod?
I mean Galatians would be a sort of reminder of the Celtic influence... but Kyrene is a small city-state of sorts, and sort of like a Greek colony... the KH Shadow... well I don't know enough about Greece to answer but I think a second Greek faction would be less important than say the Wusun... and the Attalids... weren't they a very short lived semi-autonomous satrapy?

[Malik of Sindh]

You will only be taking kyrene from my cold,dead hands.I still dunno what to do about the indo-greeks,but i like paullus idea about emerging indo greeks after baktrians conquer some India.

[Admetos]

Personally, I'd also go with paullus' second idea as well.

[Malik of Sindh]

We are having a debate with admetos.Its very hard to find any info on bosphorus.He thinks we should scrap Bosphorus,and add something else.Please tell us what you think.

[Admetos]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Bosporas ( , Malik knows what I mean) in the mod, they'd have such an interesting unit line up, but I haven't been able to find any information on them at the start date. If someone could provide info or link or anything that could help, I would thank you so much as I really would like to see them in the mod, but without info, it just can't happen.

[Geoffrey S]

Forgive me if this sounds somewhat harsh, but if you're going to make such an expansive mod up to historical standards you're going to have to put in a whole lot of effort for research, and that isn't going to happen overnight. From what I've seen this hasn't been going for that long; it's going to take a lot longer to find easily accessed sources (if they even exist), let alone specialised academic works.

[Zaknafien]

why not script the "Romani Invasions" as events rather than an emerging faction, with appropriate stacks appearing in Greece and/or Asia Minor at suitable times, based on what factions own those provinces at the time.

You could have them as an emerging faction if/ when Pergamum is destroyed, spawning in Pergamon as it is "willed" to the Romans. If not, they won't emerge.

[Admetos]

I understand what your saying Geoffrey, but I would have though I would have thought that I could have found at least some basic information by now, but I have found none, zip, zero, zilch, whatever you want to call it.

I know its not the most reliable website, but let me direct you to this paragraph from Wikipedia:

His successor was Spartocus III (303–283 BC) and after him Paerisades II. Succeeding princes repeated the family names, but we cannot assign them any certain order. We know only that the last of them, Paerisades V, unable to make headway against the power of the natives, in 108 BC called in the help of Diophantus, general of Mithridates the Great of Pontus, promising to hand over his kingdom to that prince. He was slain by a Scythian named Saumacus who led a rebellion against him.

As you can see, nothing from 283 untill 108! Of course I may be completely wrong, in fact, I really hope someone comes along and proves me 100% wrong.

EDIT: That sounds good Zak, I'm sure that will be taken into consideration, thanks.

[Malik of Sindh]

What do you mean were doing research fast?Were not!I was researching Cyrenaica,which was extremely easy to reaserach(only existed 18 years after mods start).Every other faction wil be atleast 3 times harder to research.

[Zaknafien]

usually you need to order expensive books from university presses or get them through inter-library loan, or by being a member of some archaic historical society that sends out monthly/yearly scholarly journals.. its a pain in the ass sometimes :)

[Admetos]

I guess that just adds a further complication to this already HUGE task.

[Bootsiuv]

Keep bosphorus!!

It would be the only mod i know of with a playable bosphorous...make them a greek/steppe mix....very cool idea methinks.

[Bootsiuv]

BTW, I'll look up info on them as well....I could probably find something in the 80 million books I have access too.