Will You Buy a SecuRomed Empire?

[hellenes]

How did you remove it?

Rick

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=203200

[gardibolt]

Nope. Didin't buy SecuRom Kingdoms, and won't buy a SecuRom Empire. Loved RTW and MIITW but there's a line been drawn in the sand that I won't cross. No money for malware. End of story.

[Callahan9119]

i wont buy it at all /shrug

[ArtistofWarfare]

I bought M2TW Gold (haven't installed it yet/waiting for new PC still) which as we all know, has securom.

I'll buy Empires as well. The fact remains: I plan on buying a lot of PC games in the next few years. Securom is going to either wind up on my hard drive now, or some time in the future. Might as well just bite the bullet, accept it, and continue playing the games that I want to.

If Securom was some off beat, one time application- Sure. Maybe I'd just take a pass on any software it's a part of. The fact is that Securom and copyright protection software just like it, is being sold to almost every publisher and developer in the industry today.

I just don't see any way around it...other than to deprive myself of playing the games I want to. Which is just not an option.

edit: I'll also add that since I heard about this Securom issue here on the .org, I asked people I know who have lots of new games installed on their PC. They all have Securom on their hard drive already, yet none of them report any change in their system. I'm not doubting that Securom has caused people problems...I'm just saying that it seems to be thinly spread. Older hardware seems to be primarily at risk...which makes me wonder if this is partially a nasty way to get people to upgrade hardware.

Also, Securom is made by Sony. From what I hear, Optical Drives are the main component threatened. I have a Sony optical drive. I just think this would be too ironic heh...

[Caerfanan]

Sorry guys, I don't get it: when I buy bread, I pay the guy who made it. Same for many things. Why wouldn't I pay for the guys who design and sell a game I will spend hours and hours on?

[hellenes]

Sorry guys, I don't get it: when I buy bread, I pay the guy who made it. Same for many things. Why wouldn't I pay for the guys who design and sell a game I will spend hours and hours on?

Can somebody please tell me how this is relevant to the discussion?

[TosaInu]

I guess a more appropriate question is: Would you install a SecuRomed Emire: Total War?

[thebigbossnahhh]

There is Software that SecuROM provides if you write to them that removes the programme from your Computer.
A Bit confusing to use as it isn't a double click remove programme, it gives you instructions on how to remove SecuROM from your run text box.


But yeah, Quality deserves to be bought, I have Eras, Med 2 and Kingdoms and games are getting bigger and bigger so requires money, any Mod on here can tell you how hard it is to even do the basics that they do but Hard coding, that's something else .

[TosaInu]

Hello thebigbossnahhh,

The discussion isn't about not buying ETW as in obtaining illegal copies.

Not buying should, in this case, be seen as not willing to install.

It would be nicer when there was an option to deinstall SecuRom together with the game. That's the least a customer should get.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Hello thebigbossnahhh,

The discussion isn't about not buying ETW as in obtaining illegal copies.

Not buying should, in this case, be seen as not willing to install.

It would be nicer when there was an option to deinstall SecuRom together with the game. That's the least a customer should get.

Well, I'm definitely going to go ahead and agree with you on that one.

Especially if contacting Sony yields free software to remove the program in the first place. If this is the case, there's absolutely no reason the software should not be able to be uninstalled like every other program in existance.

I do NOT see the purpose behind this...well, I guess I do. It just doesn't benefit the paying consumer one bit.

[Caerfanan]

Can somebody please tell me how this is relevant to the discussion?

Can somebody please tell me first why I perceive this as agressive, and then what this Securom thing is? If it's somethnig to prevent you from copying the game, isn't that some "normal stuff"?

Which I illustrated with a simple exemple (well, apparently less simple as I expected, sorry about that): why ranting against anti-piracy stuff if not because you encourage it? I used the exemple of a "shop" where you actually BUY things and consider it normal. Then, oddly, when it's music or games or films, it's a shame to pay...

Then again, I could've missed something, I'm no computer geek, I know some things, but don't follow closely all the info, so if I misunderstood something about Securom, please explain... Is that some nasty independent softaware that sends information about your system or something?

[Puzz3D]

Can somebody please tell me first why I perceive this as agressive, and then what this Securom thing is? If it's somethnig to prevent you from copying the game, isn't that some "normal stuff"?

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

[TosaInu]

Hello Caerfanan,

I believe it is a customers right to make a personal backup copy of software. Abuse a book and you can (normally) still read it, scratch a CD and you can not install or play the game (apart from the tiny scratches which are error corrected).

Of course publishers are allowed to protect their investments. But this already gives a conflict with the customer.

I recall something about crashing/locking hardware a couple of years ago due to playing a legal audioCD.

This SecuRom software is installed on the computer and remains there even after uninstalling Kingdoms.

One is not allowed to copy books, I still have to encounter the first copy protection there. Exploding copymachines? Exclusive reservation of a bookshelf even when the book is thrown away?

Granted, it's a whole different medium and one on one comparisons are odd.

I don't think there's a copyprotection that hasn't been bypassed. But for the honest customer it's becoming harder: require online activation and quit when you change hardware, phone in to some distant country to activate, damaged optical equipment, remaining software. Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

This topic is not promoting piracy, it is about the anti-piracy measurements that do not hurt the pirates but the customers.

[Caerfanan]

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

Oh... Ok, then that's another thing. Why on earth would a program prevent you from deleting a program? And then, yes, it should at least be easy to uninstall then... But, err, what does this have to do with a proctection against copy? I mean, why add this program to a game? And BTW, as my "gaming computer" is also my "working computer", I might not install that kind of stuff on it, then...

Hello Caerfanan,

Konbawa Tosa Inu,

I believe it is a customers right to make a personal backup copy of software. Abuse a book and you can (normally) still read it, scratch a CD and you can not install or play the game (apart from the tiny scratches which are error corrected).

Of course publishers are allowed to protect their investments. But this already gives a conflict with the customer.

I recall something about crashing/locking hardware a couple of years ago due to playing a legal audioCD.

This SecuRom software is installed on the computer and remains there even after uninstalling Kingdoms.

One is not allowed to copy books, I still have to encounter the first copy protection there. Exploding copymachines? Exclusive reservation of a bookshelf even when the book is thrown away?

Granted, it's a whole different medium and one on one comparisons are odd.

I don't think there's a copyprotection that hasn't been bypassed. But for the honest customer it's becoming harder: require online activation and quit when you change hardware, phone in to some distant country to activate, damaged optical equipment, remaining software. Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

This topic is not promoting piracy, it is about the anti-piracy measurements that do not hurt the pirates but the customers.

Yup, with Puzz3D's and your explanation it's more clear. Thank you. I still think that functionning with "replaceable" 1 for 1 CD for very cheap would be best. Like you sell the first time the game to someone, and then the guy, if he has a problem with the CD can exchange it (literally) with a new one, for a price which should be then about the CD's + litttle time to burn it. Sort of a big "developper based backup". You bring back the CD that doesn't work and that you cannot play anymore with, and go with a new one. Would be simpler, wouldn't it?

[TosaInu]

Oh... Ok, then that's another thing. Why on earth would a program prevent you from deleting a program? And then, yes, it should at least be easy to uninstall then... But, err, what does this have to do with a proctection against copy? I mean, why add this program to a game?

I haven't looked into SecuRom, but my guess: it's intended to block CD-emulation software, thus preventing ten friends to share one copy on different computers.

Yup, with Puzz3D's and tyour explanation it's more clear. I still think that functionning with "remplaceable" 1 for 1 CD for very cheap would be best.

This was an option with STW published by EA: it was a one time replacement for $25 (? will dig up the manual). The BI manual only mentions the 90 days warranty and states that the customer is not allowed to make copies (that includes your personal backup copy I think).

Edit:
From EA's STW readme: 12 months warranty, fll25,- ( ~$12,50) to replace 1 CD after 12 months, fl35,- for both.

[TosaInu]

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

That's nasty Puzz3D.

The discussion, at least partly, is about the need to be able to uninstall SecuRom when you uninstall the game, but software like this is simply something you don't want on your computer at all.

Right now it may sound like I say: 'SecuRom is ok when you can uninstall it'. It's not ok at all.

[Jochi Khan]

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

That is the reason why I will definately NOT buy or install Kingdoms or Empire.

[Mouzafphaerre]

That is the reason why I will definately NOT buy or install Kingdoms or Empire.

.
Is it confirmed that Empire will be shipped with it?
.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

.

[R'as al Ghul]

The most ridiculous thing is that copy protection has failed for 3 decades.
No copy protection has ever prevented any software from being distributed freely. Yet almost every new game/software comes with copy protection in one flavour or another. What's even more, the protections have gotten so nasty that they harass the legitimate customer while only those who get the black copy can enjoy the product to the full extend (minus MP in most cases).
When will they learn?

[Whacker]

The most ridiculous thing is that copy protection has failed for 3 decades.
No copy protection has ever prevented any software from being distributed freely. Yet almost every new game/software comes with copy protection in one flavour or another. What's even more, the protections have gotten so nasty that they harass the legitimate customer while only those who get the black copy can enjoy the product to the full extend (minus MP in most cases).
When will they learn?

Oh come on R'as, you already know the answer to this. They won't learn, never have, never will. If anything, they'll keep forming "special interest" lobby groups whose intents are to purchase more legislation that removes our rights regarding what we OWN.

Piracy always has and always will exist. There are two proven methods to combat it to a large degree. The first is a method whereby a game that has single and multiplayer facets uses a key system to authenticate before multiplayer is allowed. id Software had/has this perfectly right with the Quake and Doom series, Valve had it right with WON but then screwed it all up with that DRM riddled pile of poo that is Steam. The other method is to actually, genuinely interact often with your consumer/fanbase and treat them respectfully and show/make good on requests and concerns. Look at Stardock as a perfect example here. They don't use any nasty DRM at all, and have somewhat minimal protections in place against piracy. This doesn't stop piracy of course, and they are a relatively small developer house compared to some of the bigger juggernauts around, but they have a rather large, loyal, and vocal fanbase which is somewhat disproportionate to their size. They didn't get this through treating their customers like garbage, they got it from making good games and listening/interacting with their fan communities constantly and making good on issues raised.

The best thing we can do is keep spreading the word and educating folks. Caerfanan is a perfect example of this, and now he's been made aware of what he's actually doing to his system when he installs this crude. Some people are going to buy the games no matter what even after they're told the facts, some even refuse to believe the facts, but that's individual choice.

[R'as al Ghul]

Oh come on R'as, you already know the answer to this.

Yes, baby, spank me.
I agree with you and personally I'd prefer a mix between a good longstanding interaction between community and developer plus a restricted (by serial key)Multiplayer. That should work for all games where MP is an important part.
Single player games should offer value for money. If you pack a nice manual, a map and perhaps another gimmick in a nice box then people will go for it. Nowadays you buy cheap jewel cases with 2 cents worth of CD's and a single paper sheet (yes I exaggerate ). That's no comparison to the red box of Shogun, that I still treasure.

[00jebus]

gotta say thanks for all the infomation on the malware that comes with kingdoms, I bought it without knowing and will soon be getting rid of it.

As for Empire, voted undecided, it all depends on how bad it is (both malware, and I guess game), in a strange twist of fate, my old computer probably wont be upto playing it anyway and Im lacking the money for an upgrade, so I'll deffinantly have time to see what other people say about it before purchase/non-purchase.

[Nobunaga]

hmmm. Well if the game was good (like original STW) SecuRomed won't prevent me from getting the game. But I highly doubt that the game will be playable upon release, I think that we will get a beta release bug heaven (as usual ).

BTW I really hope that my expectation fail this time

[mitch23]

SecuRom is a big problem because
a) so far most games with it don't tell you it's going to install it - which seems like a fundamental problem to me
b) once installed it's almost impossible to tell it's there
c) there is no easy way of removing it

I'm more than happy to pay full price for a game, and it's reasonable for that game to have some sort of copy protection, but the nature of SecuRom is highly suspect (like Sony's notorious RootKit) and i'd prefer to avoid it

(i may consider installing such games on my old machine - but then the new games won't work on it anyway)

shame really :(

[TosaInu]

I also still have the original STW cardbox R'as al Ghul.

I think the Eras and M2TW collectors box were nice packages too.

[TosaInu]

Was it Sony's rootkit that caused problems with diskdrives (damage to hardware) mitch23?

[Caerfanan]

I haven't looked into SecuRom, but my guess: it's intended to block CD-emulation software, thus preventing ten friends to share one copy on different computers.

Yes, and to avoid the one rabbid dog we kill all animals on the planet. Fair enough... That's really, as you say afterwards, nasty...

This was an option with STW published by EA: it was a one time replacement for $25 (? will dig up the manual). The BI manual only mentions the 90 days warranty and states that the customer is not allowed to make copies (that includes your personal backup copy I think).

Edit:
From EA's STW readme: 12 months warranty, fll25,- ( ~$12,50) to replace 1 CD after 12 months, fl35,- for both.

That was a good start, but still, 9 euros is too expensives. Let's say some 2-3 euros... That would sound fair.

[Nobunaga]

i bet if the game was good enough all people complaining here will buy ETW

Especially that SecuRomed protection can be removed

[mitch23]

Tosa Inu - yes, Sony's Rootkit killed some CD Drives, and caused system crashes, and at the very least was a constant drain on system resources

and it also opened up security holes (badly written software running in ring zero)

SecuRom follows the Rootkit pattern of not telling you it's there, hiding itself after install, and being difficult to remove (not sure if SecuRom runs in ring zero, but it may well do [hard to hide itself from the OS otherwise])