Will You Buy a SecuRomed Empire?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

UPDATE: It has been announced here will be no SecuROM in Empire: Total War - it will use the Steam system. Good job by Creative Assembly, and I will now in all probability purchase the game.

Simple question. If Empire: Total War comes with SecuRom, or similar copy protection, under the presumption it is never released with a removal tool and is similar to SecuRom or StarForce.

Will you still buy it?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The purpose of this poll is both for my own interest and to show CA and Sega our opinions.

Note that CA has not yet confirmed if SecuROM will be included in Empire, but they have stated that SecuROM or alternate copy protection will be.

[Bijo]

Didn't such a thread exist already in this forum?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think so, but it wasn't a poll.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Polls make everything cool.

Except AIDS. Not cool at all.

[Bijo]

I think so, but it wasn't a poll.

Actually, it was a poll showing opinions.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hmm, I didn't think it was. Well, maybe now that it's been thoroughly discussed in the M2TW forums some opinions will have changed.

[woad&fangs]

no

[Matt_Lane]

I've gotta say I'm stoked about ETW and I can't wait for it to hit the shelves. However the one big, big, big fly in my ointment is SecuRom. I was constantly on the Total War web page during the build up to Kingdoms but the SecuRom fiasco has so far put me off from buying a copy. I reckon like a true TW junkie I'll eventually give in and pick up a copy but so far I've been holding out until I see it cheaper enough to justify infecting my machine. I really don't want this stuff in my system but I suppose once I'm hooked I might not be so bothered by the copy protection on ETW so the honest answer is that yes I'll probably still buy it and then bitch about it later on these very pages.

[Husar]

Sorry but this is laughable.
What good is a copy protection if you deliver it with a removal tool?

Hidden folders are also really scary (hint: Windows has some )

And I'm really surpried that the game is not supposed to be playable without the copy protection, that sounds as if they try to stop people from copying it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ubisoft released some patches that removed StarForce after the fact, to my knowledge. This poll operates on the presumption that CA will not.

[RoadKill]

OHH MMYY LOOORRDDD!!!!

STOP WITH THESE DAMN THREADS!!!

[Caius]

I'm not sure.-

[MStumm]

Simple question. If Empire: Total War comes with SecuRom, or similar copy protection, under the presumption it is never released with a removal tool and is similar to SecuRom or StarForce.

The particular version of SecuRom in Kingdoms does not bother me, so the answer would be yes.

But if it is StarForce, or similar then no.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

OHH MMYY LOOORRDDD!!!!

STOP WITH THESE DAMN THREADS!!!

Just curiosity. Relax.

[Husar]

Ubisoft released some patches that removed StarForce after the fact, to my knowledge. This poll operates on the presumption that CA will not.

The evil about StarForce is not just that it has hidden folders, it can make optical drives deteriorate and become useless, if SecuROM did that as well I wouldn't buy SecuROM games but so far I haven't heard anyone claim that it does. SecuROM is not StarForce.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I don't know. I do know that I haven't purchased Kingdoms at least partially due to the DRM stuff. Ultimately, I think it would depend on how virulent such protection software was and how good Empires actually is judged by people here.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The evil about StarForce is not just that it has hidden folders, it can make optical drives deteriorate and become useless, if SecuROM did that as well I wouldn't buy SecuROM games but so far I haven't heard anyone claim that it does. SecuROM is not StarForce.

What I meant by "hidden folders" was more that it hides the install from you than that the folders are simply hidden by default.

[Husar]

Yes, and when you install Windows it also creates folders that are hidden by default. Are you using Linux or a Mac because of that?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, and when you install Windows it also creates folders that are hidden by default. Are you using Linux or a Mac because of that?

No, but the Windows install folders are not my definition of malicious or invasive software.

[Herkus]

Whether I am buying Empire or not depends entirely on battlefield and campaign AI, which has to be better than the ones for RTW and MTW2, and in that case they can put whatever securom they wish. Will remove it manually later.

[hellenes]

Whether I am buying Empire or not depends entirely on battlefield and campaign AI, which has to be better than the ones for RTW and MTW2, and in that case they can put whatever securom they wish. Will remove it manually later.

There is only one way to have better "AI": restrict the players' controls...
Otherwise is to have an online/LAN campaign...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Voted undecided. I don't generally like more software installs, especially non-removable ones. I wouldn't mind plugging in some USB-thing every time I play a game as a form of copy protection, but software installs, if anywhere close to how dangerous starforce apparently has been reported to be, aren't very appreciated.

[caravel]

The difference between hidden folders in Windows OS and in a product like SecuRom is that the former hides them, as do MAC OS, other UNIX types and Linux by the way for convenience and security purposes. SecuRom and other copy protection software on the other hand hide them in much the same was as spyware or malware would: In order that the process and it's binaries be invisible to the end user.

I voted no, but that doesn't matter as CA ignore polls. I thought Everyone knew that by now.

[ElectricEel]

Deleted

[TinCow]

Undecided. On the one hand, I love me some Total War. On the other hand, I despise SecuRom. It has caused me major headaches on two recent legally (take notice, CA, it causes problems for your CUSTOMERS, not the pirates) purchased games, including the need to buy a new DVD drive. I'll know which one wins out on release day.

[Husar]

The difference between hidden folders in Windows OS and in a product like SecuRom is that the former hides them, as do MAC OS, other UNIX types and Linux by the way for convenience and security purposes. SecuRom and other copy protection software on the other hand hide them in much the same was as spyware or malware would: In order that the process and it's binaries be invisible to the end user.

Yeah, that's for security reasons, otherwise they could just offer an uninstall button next to a "burn a copy for all your friends" button, I thought that was the idea behind copy protection, to make it harder for the average joe to copy games. Now if you find out it send packages with information to Sony or Sony can remote control your PC using it or that it destroys hardware or other software, I'd agree that it's malicious but I haven't heard such things about SecuROM yet and that's why I can't understand that people just say it's malicious because it's hard to find/remove.

[Ethelred Unread]

I've got Kingdoms on my laptop and desktop and haven't had any problems with securerom so far so I voted YES!

[caravel]

Yeah, that's for security reasons, otherwise they could just offer an uninstall button next to a "burn a copy for all your friends" button, I thought that was the idea behind copy protection, to make it harder for the average joe to copy games. Now if you find out it send packages with information to Sony or Sony can remote control your PC using it or that it destroys hardware or other software, I'd agree that it's malicious but I haven't heard such things about SecuROM yet and that's why I can't understand that people just say it's malicious because it's hard to find/remove.

SecuRom has had it's own CD authentication issues with popular titles such as FEAR and the Sims2, runs and installs a Win32 service on your system even if you're logged in as a limited user account (malware) and is effectively trojan or rootkit like in it's operation.

If you like surrendering your PC over to this kind of software then why don't you just disable your firewall and go and visit a few dodgy warez or pr0n sites with IE, you can get a lot of similar software for free.

Also you've hit the nail on the head when you said that this copy protection is designed to stop the "average joe" from making a copy for his mates and is not designed to deter the real software pirates. I find it disappointing though that you can support this kind of software. I take it also that if you had two PCs in your house and wanted to play TW with a friend over the lan using the same copy, that you'd gladly pay twice for this game? To the letter of the law? I hope you don't record radio broadcasts or TV programs either. And if you find Bill Gates' wallet in the street I expect you to hand it back to him with not a moth out of place.

I'm a firm believer in that you should install on your own PC what you want and only that. If a game requires a hidden copy protection program then that protection should be listed in the system requirements as is DirectX, windows version or any platfrom specifics. The fact that these companies can get away with this and that some people still will accept (and sometimes support) it so readily even if they know it's there, is a sign of the times. Sooner or later this software will get more and more invasive and restrictive. The problem with piracy is the wide proliferation of cracked copies over the .net via p2p networks and warez sites and not "average joe" burning a sly copy for his cousin "average john".

[Husar]

You're making a few assumptions there, SecuROM is not the only protection that doesn't allow you to play the game with a friend, I remember trying to play Operation Flashpoint on two computers and getting all sorts of errors(the way the copy protection is claimed to work) on the second install, but I do not remember any big outrage about the copy protection of the game, the outrage seems to be a sign of the times as well.
And yes, I would obviously like to be able to do that, but in theory Communism is also great and all people are equal though for some reason it never really worked. So in theory no copy protection would be great but in reality, most people would still get illegal copies, maybe not many more than today but Publishers keep trying to prevent those who pirate today from pirating in the future which IMO is their right unless it goes as far as spying on me or destroying my property(StarForce and whatever can come by turning off the firewall count into this).

What makes malware malware is the malicious intent, isn't it? Now where exactly is the malicious intent of SecuROM? the purpose is to stop illegal activities and it does so far not really harm normal customers, I had some problems installing games before but then a new DVD ROM usually solvesd that and I have to say I had unknowingly used the old drive with StarForce games which may well have been the cause for those problems.

I just don't really see what StarForce destroys, except inviting your friend to play on your second computer(though I thought that is usually prohibited by the game itself when it checks the serial numbers of both clients), but then if I could afford a second computer....

[Whacker]

We've already been down this road many times Husar. Some of the reasons why this DRM is malware is listed in the Securom thread in the Citadel, I know I've told you dozens of times in the chat what else it does, and you can always Google for additional information. And the whole "It doesn't bother me therefore it's fine hurf durf!" is rather ignorant, to try and put it nicely (yes, that's the nice way of saying it). If it's on your machine, it can and will do Bad Things© and in certain situations can be greatly exacerbated, and can (in this case does) present a very real security exposure to your system and your personal information. This is like those people who argue that Starforce has "never done anything to them because they don't notice it". Ignorance does not equal bliss certainly does not mean that real damage hasn't occured.

Yet again, all this coming from someone who was arguing with me as to why they should put their PC behind a firewall/nat router, someone who ran Vista almost since launch on the raw Internetknowing FULL well MS's wonderful track record for releasing bug-free OS's.

I'm sure you know that most of this is said tongue-in-cheek, but I am also serious. I don't want people to get the wrong impression about what this DRM really is and what it actually does. There's a difference between protecting one's investments and invading another's privacy. Publishers have a right to protect their investments, but like anything is subject to limitations. Securom and Starforce go well beyond what is reasonable to a good majority of us, and also to those of us who are in the IT Security profession (which I am) as well if you read about it.