Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

[TosaInu]

Ok I read J-wiki
Battle:
1) Under Sakai Tadatsugu, the siege of Nagashino Castle was broken during the night of June 28th (western calender, May 20th by traditional Asian calender) by a successful night assault on the five Takeda Forts built to surround Nagashino.

How I understood it: Sakai Tadatsugu broke the Takeda force that continued the siege, while the Shidarahara battle took place. The Takeda advance started at 6.00 AM, the raid followed two hours later. The raid force left at midnight in a thunderstorm.

2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.

Shidarahara started with manouevres on the 27th and was fought the 28th (Osprey Campaign Nagashino 1575).

Takeda left 3,000 men to continue the siege and the raid was also 3,000 strong.

This is roughly the field:

This map is ~5*5 km iiuc.

The yellow are Oda/Tokugawa forces. The thin blue line in front of them is the Rengogawa river, there's also a branch behind them. There's also a small river in the centre of the map.

The large blue lines are the Toyokawa, Onogawa and Takigawa river. These are not small ones like the Rengogawa.

The brown square denotes the Nagashino castle.

The Nagashino campaign from May 30th up till June 28th started further North, Takeda went South and was now halfway back. There was hope to easily grab some key castles, but it all failed. Nagashino was a consolation price. That failed too.

I think it is unlikely that a 3,000 man raid could have defeated a sieging force of 15,000 behind that big river. If that would have happened, it's Tokugawa territory and maybe they could have launched something, I think it's more likely that Takeda would retreat/rout to the east and back home and not cross the river and attack.

There wasn't a tactical need to attack: there was a nice river between them and the Takeda could, they could defend or afaik, just pull back.

There was no strategic need to attack either, other than in Katsuyoris mind. He hadn't achieved anything yet in the campaign, his generals appreciated Katsuyori the warrior and he was the clanleader, but he was not Shingen. The generals disagreed about the whole campaign from the start: they didn't want an offensive one. He wanted to avoid a 'see I told ya'.

Takeda didn't have to defeat Oda, there was no pressing need. Oda had trouble at several fronts: The Mori in the West and the Ikko were a headache.
Takeda could have continued these larger scale raids and Oda would have trouble to manoeuvre from West to East and back again. There was enough room for a better chance tomorrow. In retrospect perhaps.

Takeda left with 15,000 men and only 5,000 returned. Katsuyori was only totally destroyed seven years later. Oda already dealt with the Ikko by then.
Reasons for Oda to leave him: other urging matters in the West, crippled Takeda buffer between him and Hojo.


We have three reports now:

The movie Kagemusha, I think we agree to reject that.
The Japanese wiki.
Osprey.

Which one is correct? I think we need more information, especially maps and such. I assume for example that Takeda could retreat while on the eastbank of the big rivers, it does look possible to retreat home, but is it? If not he could have opted to go to the westbank and not charge but pull back.

[Parallel Pain]

It's not whether or not Oda have other fronts to fight, it's how strong Oda is, and Oda is getting stronger and stronger.

Before a Clan takes the entire of Honshu it will always have other fronts to fight. The question is its strength. As Yamamoto Kansuke said to Shingen in Fuurinkazan "We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."

Even when Nobunaga was assasinated, the Oda clan was still fighting multiple fronts. But they had more than enough strength to do so.

That's what needs to be prevented. Remember even by traditional numbers the Oda-Tokugawa force was 38000 total to Takeda's 15000 (and by one thought up by some Japanese military historian in the Meji era, 21000 Oda-Tokugawa and 7000, but who cares, you get the point). Even the other daimyos were feeling the pressure of the Oda Clan's strength, and the desperately tried to gang up on the Oda (again), with Uesugi Kenshin also participating. It's funny the first one broke up when Shingen died and the second one broke up when Kenshin died. But the contrast is that in the first one Nobunaga had quite a bit of trouble dealing with, this second one he dealt with with almost no problem. That's how strong the Oda Clan has become.

It looks like Osprey is using traditional Japanese sources. One could easily question whether or not those numbers are correct.
But putting that aside, we have to remember a large percentage of the army of the time, actually possibly the majority, were ashigaru. A simple surprise strike could sweep them away. Takeda Nobutora had done it to the Imagawa, just like Oda Nobunaga did (also to the Imagawa heh). Hojo Ujiyasu was able to hold Odawara Castle against a reputed (and obviously exaggerated but if you trust traditional sources) 100 000 allied army of the various Kantou lords. Ujiyasu also hit a Kantou army 6~7 times his size at Kawagoe Castle in a night assault and won a decisive victory. So there's no question that it can be done.

Sakai Tadatsugu's raid (according to J-wiki) was also a night raid against an unprepared enemy.

And you have to remember with Oda-Tokugawa army arriving, Katsuyori is forced to move likely most of his troops away from the castle to reform into a battle formation to prevent being caught with his back to the enemy. Sakai Tadatsugu only hit those that were left to keep up the siege. If fact Sakai Tadatsugu chased the routing Takeda troops too far he ran into the main Takeda force and lost one of his generals.

If Sakai Tadatsugu's raid happened like that, then Katsuyori has every reason to attack. By retreating he would be chased and be faced with the combine force of Oda-Tokugawa AND the sideforce under Tadatsugu+Nagashino's garrison. That'll make him be outnumbered more than 3 times instead of only about 2.5 at Shitagara plain. If he takes the defence he'll be attacked from two sides.

BTW, do you mean Osprey publishing's book by Stephen Turnbull? Because he's not exactly known to question the reliability of sources or look at works by modern historians that take into account more stuff and try not to exaggerate and questions lots of things (like how good exactly is Takeda's cavalry). But then I guess the same can be said about Wikipedia.

[TosaInu]

Hello Parallel Pain,

Yes, it's that Osprey, the link in post 117 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaC...hl=nl#PPA72,M1
It's showing a few pages only to tease.

It's not that easy to obtain books, a couple of years ago, even Osprey or plain Turnbull books were harder to get (didn't see them in the bookstores).

It's always difficult to learn what has happened, no matter what the source is. This took place over 400 years ago in a totally different culture. On top of that, already colored and incomplete accounts had to 'survive' extra colouring during the Tokugawa era.

=========================================================

There's a book by Dr. Mitsuo Kure. He graduated in medical school but started a research into Japanese history. He is not a history scholar, but being schooled into any art doesn't mean you know the truth about the subject.

His book discusses the battle too.

Katsuyori answered the call of the puppet Ashikaga Yoshiaki. Oda Nobunaga himself 'installed' him as shogun. The puppet was working behind his back to get Oda down.

This book doesn't mention the whole campaign, the reader gets the impression that Katsuyori marches straight up to Nagashino castle in June. Osprey mentions that Nagashino was only the consolation price after a failed tough raid.

The book mentions a few things and some of them do sound logical if you look at what seems to be happening. His main source seems to be a document written by Ota Guichi, a Nobunaga retainer (was he there?).

It mentions 30,000 for the allies and 15,000 for Takeda. The actual number doesn't matter all that much, just that it again states Oda to have a numerical advantage (for starters).

At that time, Oda thought that Takeda was stronger, so they decided to fight defensively. Furthermore, the forces were strictly forbidden to leave the palisade.

My comment: why would Oda, having a 2 to 1 advantage and also a allied castle in Katsuyoris back, not simply march up. I think there's even more reason to that than just thinking he was weaker despite the numbers.

Excavation revealed the defense to be fairly massive: three lines of ditches, earthen walls and timber palisades. It also mentions though, that the used palisades would not suffice to stop a cavalry charge. My comment: it's not the insignificant fence around our garden, but it's not a solid wall either.

The attempt to answer why Katsuyori attacked:
-Because the allied army threatened his rear and forced him to attack.

My comment: The yellow arrow shows how Sakai Tadagatsu flanked. The black arrow shows how Takeda finally routed.

Takeda was in enemy territory and trouble could come from both east and west, realistically only from west though. The major problem was in the west though, camping on the east bank, where they were, would have given a fair defensive position and also an escape to home.

But even after crossing the river, they were not trapped and the retreat back home was always open. There was no tactical urge to attack. The Takeda generals advised a retreat: how could they advise that if there was no option to do so?

The timing of the manoeuvres is a point of discussion then, Osprey even suggests Katsuyori even wasn't aware while he was engaged, but he moved out of a good position himself and ignored the retreat (he could rout home after hours of fighting and losing his army, he could retreat too).

-Katsuyori was a young man, overconfident in his splendid army.

His scouts were killed and thus he didn't get proper report of what defenses were there. Rain and mist My comment (and no doubt also surrounding woods) obscured his own view.

=======================================
What happened according to this book?

The first Takeda wave consisted of sappers to clear the path

My comment: so they did see something and decided to quickly clear that first.

This wave failed, but the second reached the palisade and teared it down. Only to face a second line.
The attacks on this second line failed and eventually Katsuyori withdrew.

The book mentions another thing in a caption, the first makes sense, the second I question:
Arquebusses are black powder weapons, and the smoke of the first volley would have hindered the accuracy of the second, while the Takeda could have used that window to advance. The second is that the allies (Oda and Tokugawa) would not have won if the Takeda launched one big push.

==============End of book=====================

"We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."

What goes up, must come down. This nobody is going to stop us is just boasting. The problem with getting big is that you get more enemies and/or that you'll make a mistake somewhere.

Katsuyoris strategic mindset seems to have been: 'I must destroy Oda now'. Yes, Oda was growing. That also means he's accumulating enemies (he did) and maybe he isn't tough anymore next year or still tough but occupied in a conflict in the west. A 'we must defeat him' by hit and run raids from all sides, would have sorted more effect in the long run than knocking oneself out one by one.

The book suggests that Oda thought himself to be weaker. That could be their thought (either in quality and/or quantity). But the Takeda army was in 'their' territory for about a month, so they should know better. Maybe he feared the quality? The fence was there to give the ashigaru the idea of safety. The several layers did make it really tough too. He also mixed tougher bushi to prevent a rout.

But was it in Oda's interest to get rid of Takeda? Did he really want to destroy them completely right now?

The alliance knew the war was long and far from over. Nobunaga wasn't famous for kindness and while the other two weren't either, they seemed more cunning.

What could the alliance have won by destroying Takeda? Heavy losses on their own side, less men to fight other ongoing conflicts and a powervacuum in the east. What is Hojo going to do, or Uesugi? Many warlords have the (sleeping) ambition to rule the nation and/or dislike Oda.

I think plan A would be that Takeda just pulls back.
Plan B would be even nicer: Katsuyori is drawn into an attack, the alliance loses little, Takeda a lot and is forced to withdraw. No more Takeda raids and he's still a buffer to stop Hojo and Uesugi so the alliance can focus west.

I think the alliance knew about the Takeda disagreement and about Katsuyoris sentiments.

And so happened: they kept the escape door open, denied Katsuyori proper information, feigned weakness, perhaps even allowed the first fence to be broken. Takeda was only erased years later after the Ikko were destroyed in the west.

[Parallel Pain]

But the power of Ikko was broken the year before Nagashino

[TosaInu]

Hello Parallel Pain,

Nagashima yes, but the monks remained a pain up till 1580.

[Parallel Pain]

Ok so trying to get a topic back on track that I myself have derailed.

How do you effectively assault a castle/bridge? Especially a bridge.

[Togakure]

Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire (take a good number of archers and line them up on the bank on both sides of the bridge if possible, units in rows of two). That unit will take a lot of casualties as it races back to your side just ahead of the enemy melee units, but your ranged units will be decimating the enemy melee units. Do this again with a fresh unit, rinse repeat, until the enemy's fighters are decimated and their ranged units are out of ammo. Then cross the bridge and kick butt.

A more fun, less exploitive way to do it is to put cav in columns 2-3 wide, and send them across fast, one at a time. Just as they get to the other side turn hard right or left and race far to the left/right side of the map on the enemy side of the bridge. As the enemy divides to go after them, do it again with another cav unit, to the other side. Use these units to draw attention away from the bridge, staying just ahead of pursuit. When the time is right, cross the bridge with your remaining units and attack en masse. Usually the enemy is spread out all over the place at this point and it's easy to harrass and route them. This technique is not a good one to use if they have a ton of archers (or counter cavalry). A combination of these two approaches often works well. With the second approach, the basic strategy is divide, distract and conquer. It must be well-timed.

The bridge assault challenge has been discussed a lot before so if you dig, you should be able to find stuff about it. Also, check the War College thread at the .com. Wish I had more time ... this is a bit vague. Maybe others who understand what I'm describing will elaborate further.

[Martok]

Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire

I actually find Yari Cavalry to be fairly useful in this situation (I forgot about that when discussing them in the other thread). They have the necessary speed to get away once they've drawn the enemy across the bridge, meaning I can use them repeatedly in the feinting attacks you just described.

For that matter, Cavalry Archers work in this role as well. While they're not quite as fast as YC, they're a little less expensive -- which can be important, as the "bait" unit may still suffer losses (due to enemy missile fire, if nothing else).

[TosaInu]

Hello,

I use this bait trick as well.

When the enemy doesn't have much missiles, but a lot of say warriormonks instead, you can also use a ysam on hold. The monks will be inside your misilerange longer while beating the ysam. The ysam will be lost, but you can erase high value monks.

A naginata infantry can be used at times too, and it's high armour protects it a bit against enemy missiles. Note though that these units are slower than ashigaru and may be chased down to zero. Make sure you have a good counter on your bank in case the monks decide to come accross.

It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.

[Togakure]

That is an interesting technique Tosa--cancelling movement orders when on the bridge to choke it up. I'll have to try that.

Ysams can be used repeatedly (well, twice at least), provided they are rotated. Send one across, bring them back, let them rest while ordering another unit across, etc..

The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers. I've found that speed is not essential as long as the turn-around is timed well. I have my archers hold fire until they are fairly close, then turn on Fire-At-Will, maximizing their ammo and kills (and turn Fire-at-Will off when they move back to extreme range). I keep a fresh ysam unit waiting on my side of the bridge to repulse the counterattackers and cover the retreating unit if the pursuers come onto the bridge (they usually don't, retreating once my unit is halfway back across the bridge). Melee engagement comes when my archers are out of arrows, enemy melee units are severely attritioned and fatigued, and I make the big push across the bridge. My ysams are significantly attritioned, but somewhat fresh because I rotate them in the feints across the bridge.

Cav are bigger targets, and I've found that casualties/cost are higher than I'd prefer. I don't turtle a lot, so cost and availability of units is something I usually have to manage carefully. Much later in the game if I've teched up, I've used Heavy Cav for this--decent speed and very good armor and defense. Early on, the Daimyo unit is great for crossing the bridge right off and getting the enemy to chase and break focus and formations. He can gain a lot of personal honor in a single battle doing this. It's not usually a good idea if the enemy has counter cav though (unless it's just their lower-honor Daimyo, in which case it can be a golden opportunity to cut the head from the snake early on, particularly if he has no heirs; Hojo does not early on, and it is greatly desireable for the Uesugi to eliminate them before the maturation of Hojo Ujiyasu).

In this kind of battle, if I can produce them and I'm not going to use the cav-cross-harrass-confuse method, I take a unit or two of Nag cav, keeping them in reserve for the moment the enemy begins to waver in the main attack across the bridge, after all the cat and mouse games. Their attack capability is formidable and usually they are the final blow that routes and then chases down the enemy. A unit or two of monks can be good for this too, so long as the enemy archers are out of ammo or significantly attritioned.

My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano. Three-point defense, two of them rivers: within the first four years this puts the Uesugi in a formidable position strategically and economically. It will be years before attack from Noto/Sado becomes a significant risk, so there's plenty of time to bolster than last pole after establishing command of the eastern provinces.

Anyway, I digress. I enjoy reading about different approaches to try. Thanks.

[Wasp]

Masamune, that's almost exactly how I played my last Uesugi campaign; you'll never run out of koku with all those farming provinces.

[ReluctantSamurai]

One can also not underestimate the effects of weather. If you are short on ranged attackers and the enemy has them in numbers, attacking in rain (hvy thunderstorm=optimal) negates some of the dmg.

I like fog because I can race my CA forward to do some initial damage and depending on how close the river banks are, they can get in a fair amount of targeting from the rear at enemy units retreating away from the bridge.

If I have any fast-moving infantry (like ND or WM) I will often send them across, at this time if enemy formations are disrupted enough. If the havoc thus created is enough, I send my cavalry across (which by this time will get in a fair number of flanking attacks on the disordered enemy).

Without any kind of bad weather, the afore-mentioned tactics will have to do.

One other worth mentioning, for those who don't adhere to any "traditionalist" notions, is to combine fog with BFN & Kensei. When I get slightly bored with the 'usual' I resort to this as a fun diversion. I've taken to creating an entire army of BFN with a Kensei Taisho...........they become my "bridge-busters" as well as my "port-raiders".

Cheesy, but it's a fun diversion, once in awhile

[Togakure]

These are also interesting tactics and will be fun to try. Attacking a bridge rapidly in fog sounds fun indeed. Weather is one of the best things about Shogun battles, I think. Foggy battles are just too much fun.

I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me. Fortunately my wingm8 Anskar has ESP, and managed to save my arse with an incredible counter surprise attack. It was one of those most awesomest of battles you never forget, and the fog made it so. I wish it were possible to force foggy weather in a custom SP or MP battle.

Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context, ReluctantSamurai. By traditionalist, I was speaking in roleplay form, as a Japanese Daimyo who despises using firearms, being cowardly gaijin weapons. Such a daimyo would have no qualms about using ninja or a swordmaster. I only adopt that attitude for variety in gameplay. In SP: whatever floats your boat, I say.

I love using BFN for kicks too, much in the manner you describe, except that I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensai gen. Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI. This allows him to lead the enemy into ambush prepared by the hidden ninja units.

Isn't that a fun and somewhat unconventional opening for the Uesugi, Wasp? I love the result. If you want to turtle, that's a great position to tuck tail. If ports are built in Echigo and Musashi, all three front line provinces can exchange troops freely in a turn. The enemies often throw themselves at Shinano again and again, which can be fun for a while. Plenty of opportunity for nonvariable income sources (ports, trading posts, and mines) to supplement the already huge farming income.

Oops, gotta run now to catch my train home!

[ReluctantSamurai]

Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI.

Took me awhile to figure that one out

It's a blast watching enemy formations head towards the Kensei, only to get bush-whacked by the BFN. Often times the Kensei Taisho hasn't even finished his cigar before the battle is over

Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context,

No, I think I understood I just didn't want anyone getting their knickers in a snit because of the use of non-historical units. Glad to see someone else enjoys them too, from time-to-time.........

I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensei gen.

I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........

[Wasp]

Isn't that a fun and somewhat unconventional opening for the Uesugi, Wasp? I love the result. If you want to turtle, that's a great position to tuck tail. If ports are built in Echigo and Musashi, all three front line provinces can exchange troops freely in a turn. The enemies often throw themselves at Shinano again and again, which can be fun for a while. Plenty of opportunity for nonvariable income sources (ports, trading posts, and mines) to supplement the already huge farming income.

Oops, gotta run now to catch my train home!

Yes, I proceeded to turtle and build up huge stacks of elite forces and had some fun battles between Kenshin and Shingen. With Kenshin having the most cavalry, hehe

I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........

In my experience, the Kensai seems to get to honour four / five in his first two battles pretty quick, so I usually don't bother with a bonus like that.. just make sure he gets the palace, swordsmith and armory upgrades

[Drisos]

Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire ...

A more fun, less exploitive way to do it is to put cav in columns 2-3 wide, ...

Made the quotes shorter, they're just there to point at what I'm talking about.

I use both tricks as well, all the time. I can't even remember a battle I didn't. I usually use my Daimyo as bait in the first method. May sound dumb, but believe me, he doesn't die anyway. Otherwise YS/Nag, anything that doesn't die too soon. It doesn't matter if they rout. They'll rally anyway.

It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.

Ah! Another trick I use sometimes. I found it helpful against mongol light cavalry that was too eager to cross the bridge. A strong unit of YS will keep them away, while heavy fire destroyes their numbers. A long while back though, that battle..

The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers.

Same for me. I send in my YS. I have them turn their back at the enemy. Then when they're close I have them run to my side again. The enemy usually keep chasing until almost at the bridge. This way you can get a nice number of volleys. (But always keep forces ready for when they do cross!)

My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano.

Wow! Cool idea. I definately have to try this one sometime. I usually abandon Hida (But sometimes rebels leave it and I send in forces later on), but I protect Shinano first turn with 6 units. (2 from Echigo as well) This works, but it's a pain. I have to keep sending troops into Shinano, as Imagawa keeps attacking. I usually team up with Takeda to wipe out Hojo. And then I wipe out Takeda as well. I can well imagine that your strategy works faster. (better) So, in my next campaign, I'll have to try.

I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me.

Gah! I do have one MP memory about fog as well. Very scary, though it went well. Was a 1v1 against ehh... RabidGibbon. Ah yes. I think to think to come up with a name. Such battles/moments are very memorable, I have numerous more. Makes me sad again that's there's no MP crowd left anymore.

I don't really use the Kensai of BFN, because usually when I can train them it's very late in the game, I don't actually need more troops to finish the last stage, and it takes long to train these. I used them occasionally though. I liked about Kensai that it usually took 0 losses while improving it's honour level.