Show the numbers.
Not enough firebreathing dragons with a pro-immigration stance.Fantasy argument. Great!
Source? Regardless, you may find the the next 20-40 years more interesting than the previous 2.German police already recorded a decrease in crime among recent arrivals.
Duh. You can note that such networks did not come into existence in many homogeneous populations. Maybe some cultures didn't have the right seeds.The point was that the mafia didn't come into existence solely due to ethnic mixing as it existed within a relatively homogeneous group just as well, even began there.
They were both about principles and not so much about the actual processes going on. Marginalisation can have similar end results regardless of whether it is carried out with violence.That you did not understand my comparison does not make yours any more valid though, unfortunately.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
They're out there, just like your numbers I assume.
We are getting to the point again where we realize again that you haven't proven anything.
Source was already provided in the discussion with Greyblades I think, or maybe it was here. Surely you can find it together with sources for all the unsourced things you claim.
Maybe ethnic diversity is also not the only or most important factor in the calculation...
Shocking, I know!
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
What numbers?
I didn't know I was trying to 'prove' anything.We are getting to the point again where we realize again that you haven't proven anything.
Or maybe you remembered it incorrectly. That's why it's nice when specific claims go with specific sources so that it can be easily verified, preferably without going through your post history.Source was already provided in the discussion with Greyblades I think, or maybe it was here.
Which statements which you dispute would that be? Be specific.Surely you can find it together with sources for all the unsourced things you claim.
Maybe ethnic diversity is also not the only or most important factor in the calculation...
Shocking, I know!
Last edited by Viking; 01-14-2017 at 13:45.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
Nevermind.
Exactly, so why bring numbers into the game now?
I was just beginning to have fun without using Google too much.
Nah.
Your statement that nations are better off the less diverse they are.
Your statement that if we don't stop immigration completely right now, we will end up like the Native Americans.
Your statement that crime and gang activities increase mostly when ethnic mixing occurs.
And your seeming statement that ethnic mixing is the most important factor in this or the one we should tackle first.
Then your statement that this complete isolation is somehow viable and worth it.
You may say next that half of these you never claimed, but maybe that's because you're rarely very specific yourself.
You keep making vague claims about how terrible things are, never post a source to back the claim up and then demand sources from me to challenge your claim. Ain't work like that. Begin by backing up your own claims with sources that aren't news items about single events in Malmö.
And if that is too much work for you, it's too much for me as well of course.
Sleep well.
Last edited by Husar; 01-14-2017 at 13:54.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Well, what do you think? It could be interesting for me or anyone else reading this thread to see what you are basing your claims on. 'Proving' or 'disproving' things doesn't have to come into that.
I have provided many sources that back up my views. Of course I cannot provide any source that says "Viking is right"; if such sources existed, we probably wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. The topic we have debated is often both abstract and complex and difficult to reason accurately about. I don't know what kind of sources you would want beyond those that have been provided.Your statement that nations are better off the less diverse they are.
Your statement that if we don't stop immigration completely right now, we will end up like the Native Americans.
Your statement that crime and gang activities increase mostly when ethnic mixing occurs.
And your seeming statement that ethnic mixing is the most important factor in this or the one we should tackle first.
Then your statement that this complete isolation is somehow viable and worth it.
That's not an invitation for you to fill in details yourself; that's strawmanning. If you want to know if a person has a more specific position, you could just ask.You may say next that half of these you never claimed, but maybe that's because you're rarely very specific yourself.
That's the second time in this thread that you have misrepresented the data that I have provided.Begin by backing up your own claims with sources that aren't news items about single events in Malmö.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
That's the thing about your posts as well, I mostly see claims about Malmö and how diverse Russia/Dagestan is. When I look up ethnic diversity, Russia appears to be not that diverse at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_analysis.png
What I'm specifically missing from you is anything that backs up the idea that ethnicity is the factor important enough to tackle it, unless we are talking about just finding the simplest solution without any regard for ethics. I found this report for example:
http://urbanpolicy.berkeley.edu/pdf/HQ_SF82.pdf
It does factor ethnic diversity in as important, but puts emphasis on language barriers and the lack of contact being the main source for trouble between different ethnicities. As I said before, language barriers can be overcome.
Also note that it finds a strong correlation between poverty (both relative and absolute) and crime and various other factors such as age, urbanization etc., which are partially hard to interprete. It also mentions displaced aggression, which may explain e.g. why many refugees fight among themselves. that would be somewhat consistent with reports of the German police that immigrants were mostly the victims of violent crimes committed by other immigrants:
https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInform...rung_node.html
The report now covers 01.01.2016 - 30.09.2016.
The first graph in the report summary already shows that the numbers of asylum applicants has gone down considerably in 2016 compared to the huge influx of 2015, which is entirely consistent with my point that the huge influx was not an ongoing situation.
The report further states on the topic of criminality in general where at least one immigrant was among the suspects, that property crime has continued to go down and violent crime was consistently on a very low level. Property crime, by the way, is usually among those spawned mostly by poverty and not so much by ethnic diversity.
And then it also mentions that the vast majority of immigrants did not commit any crimes.
On the topic of other people wanting to know, if I were them I wouldn't read all our posts, so I assume most don't really care.
It's why I dropped or "packaged" some of your replies to make the replies a little less fragmented, don't think it helped much though...
A good source would be one that backs up your view that ethnic diversity is the major issue that should be resolved by stopping all migration.
It doesn't specifically have to say you're right, it should provide a good reason for why stopping immigration is the best idea overall.
I'm pretty sure I formulated a lot of questions that I did not get specific answers on, so I continued to guess...
It's not like you didn't misunderstand any of my positions as well, but I won't hold it against you, I happen not to be perfect either.
Yes, in this instance I made two mistakes:
1. I forgot that post.
2. I wasn't very clear.
My point is that the statistics for Malmö aren't much use for anything other than Malmö or perhaps Sweden. And they aren't necessarily good guidelines for how to treat refugees on a European level. there are many angles from which one could look at the problem, one is that the problems in Sweden and e.g. France largely stem from bad immigration policies that basically let anyone in and then leave them to themselves for the most part. The difference may be in that the police in Sweden is too nice and lets too many things happen whereas police in France is probably more racist and beats people too much (even the natives from what we previously discussed here). Both approaches are bad. In Germany the statistics clearly seem to show that events such as New Year's eve gropings and rapes in Cologne are mostly outliers for headlines, but not necessarily indicative of a general problem.
Not to forget that the statistics can differ wildly between countries not just because they have different problems, but they record them differently:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle30019623/
Once more a report about Sweden counting more rapes than most other countriues do.
And since you may have been waiting for it, police may actually be incentivized to artificially lower crime statistics in Japan:
http://www.nationmaster.com/blog/?p=74
It also just so happens to touch on the gender differences in Japan.
Apparently they solved the issue the same way you want to solve ethnic issues, by seperating the two groups.
Which could be said to be the slippery slope problem of your argument, you end up dividing people more and more because they will always find a new problem that bugs them about others who are different in some way.
Overall I'd take the statistics from a country of 82 million as more indicative than those from a city of not even 400 thousand.
And as a terrorism-comparison-bonus, a japanese man murdered 19 disabled people just because they're disabled: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7217661.html
Which just makes the idea that the terror attacks happen here due to the high diversity seem even a bit more off. Not to forget that Germany is not far from Japan on the diversity scale (check Wikipedia link above) anyway.
Last edited by Husar; 01-14-2017 at 16:48.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
There are many ways to measure diversity. This measure evidently doesn't capture the diversity that Russia does have:
https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?p=&i...55&direct=trueAnyone arriving in Russia is immediately impressed by the scale of this immense country, which on its own forms an entire continent. But quite apart from its natural beauty, one is surprised and impressed by its population, a large family of peoples and ethnic groups that have shared this vast expanse for centuries. The Russian Federation is a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional state. It is inhabited by more than 170 ethnic groups, designated as nationalities. In the Russian language and law, the word nationality refers to ethnic, national or religious affiliation. The population of these ethnic groups can vary enormously, from millions, in the case of Russians and Tartars, for example, to under ten thousand, in the case of Nenets and Samis.
If the measure was the number of recognised (by the state or some international organisation) distinct ethnic groups, Russia would rank very high. Yet another approach would be to use the same measure, but apply it separately to all of the oblasts, republics and other federal subjects of Russia (perhaps preferably an interactive 3D version with height as total population).
That's precisely the kind of sources one shouldn't expect to exist at present. It's a very complex issue with many variables. The best I hope for, is to be able to point out certain trends and facts that would agree with my interpretation.What I'm specifically missing from you is anything that backs up the idea that ethnicity is the factor important enough to tackle it, unless we are talking about just finding the simplest solution without any regard for ethics. I found this report for example:
[...]
A good source would be one that backs up your view that ethnic diversity is the major issue that should be resolved by stopping all migration.
It doesn't specifically have to say you're right, it should provide a good reason for why stopping immigration is the best idea overall.
And again, I do not enter such threads with the purpose to 'prove' something, but to argue my position.
Another relevant thing here, is the consideration of how crime is reported in immigrant-majority neighbourhoods. You would expect crime there to first and foremost have immigrants as victims, and immigrants could be less likely to report crimes to the police for all sorts of reasons (including language).Not to forget that the statistics can differ wildly between countries not just because they have different problems, but they record them differently:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle30019623/
Slippery slope, eh?Apparently they solved the issue the same way you want to solve ethnic issues, by seperating the two groups.
Which could be said to be the slippery slope problem of your argument, you end up dividing people more and more because they will always find a new problem that bugs them about others who are different in some way.
It's still just one country with one culture, however.Overall I'd take the statistics from a country of 82 million as more indicative than those from a city of not even 400 thousand.
I don't think too many people have that idea.Which just makes the idea that the terror attacks happen here due to the high diversity seem even a bit more off.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
Yes, but at that point it seems to tell us little about the relation of ethnicity and conflict since a whole lot of these ethnicities seem to get along well enough.
Yes, but why single out ethnicity as the factor to act on?
Yes, but so are other crimes for other reasons, e.g. when children get touched inappropriately by their own fathers or uncles, etc.
And a whole lot of different ethnicities, many of which somehow learned to live together, so?
One could actually even dispute the claim of one culture, if Russia has >100 ethnicities, then Germany has several cultures, unless you want to change the level of abstraction.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
The picture is complex. Several of these ethnicities form the majority population in their own republic, as is the case in Kalmykia, Chechnya, Tuva, North Osseita and perhaps a few more. Additionally, it's typically ethnic Russians that make up the second largest ethnicity in such republics. So then you have many republics where most of the population belongs to a majority population in some sense.And a whole lot of different ethnicities, many of which somehow learned to live together, so?
One could actually even dispute the claim of one culture, if Russia has >100 ethnicities, then Germany has several cultures, unless you want to change the level of abstraction.
In addition to this, many of the ethnicities have 'their own' republic without forming a majority of its population (such as Altai).
Then there is the perspective: out of the most violent places Russia, how many are homogeneous; and of these, in how many them are ethnic Russians (the majority population of the country as a whole) forming this homogeneous population?
Because we don't need (extra) intranational ethnic diversity. There is no point in dividing the population of a country into more fractions that those that already exist (and that may often be more or less unavoidable).Yes, but why single out ethnicity as the factor to act on?
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
Yes, but that does not explain why ethnicity should be an unavoidable factor and not the behavior of the ethnic groups based on the ethnicity.
There are plenty of areas in the world where ethnic differences do not lead to the same problems. I lived in a very mixed neighborhood myself for almost ten years and did not notice any big ethnic strife, street wars and civil war just because different ethnicities lived in the same neighborhood. There were apparently two big (mafia) families that would sometimes almost start a fight, but that's not quite an ethnic problem, if anything I'd call it tribal.
That division only happens due to racism or ethnicism or whatever you want to call it. And there are plenty of people who don't feel the need to become violent just because the people around them look a little different, which suggests that the ethnicism can be, and in many cases has been, overcome. You don't see Germany as an ethnically diverse country today and yet it was divided into many ethnic and political groups until 1871. The UK is made up of various ethnic groups that have stopped bashing eachother's heads in, etc. The thing most European countries without internal ethnic problems have in common is that they're quite well off. The poorer ones in the south also get more ethnic problems and the immigrants that come in and cause seemingly ethnic problems also tend to be relatively poor. The neo nazis tend to recruit from the poor as well, with a few middle class people or rich sociopaths mixed in as well for different reasons. If you look at the richer or middle class immigrants, you will probably find that they cause very little trouble and are usually the ones called well integrated.
The underlying issue would be poverty (both relative and absolute) and not ethnicity. The latter seems to be the reason for conflict when the poverty divide tends to be somewhat identical to the ethnic divide. Of course the divide can be intentional (racism) or unintentional (new arrivals have no sufficient job/money/qualifications). The problematic banlieues in France are not exactly middle class areas for example. On the other hand the US often claims to have well-integrated muslim immigrants but also tends to favor wealthier or rich immigrants with its immigration restrictions while officially accepting precious few poor ones and refugees.
Last edited by Husar; 01-15-2017 at 13:43.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
All this is somewhat besides the point. If A has a higher tendency of leading to C than B, where C is something strongly unpreferable, then you generally want to avoid A, regardless of why exactly it tends to lead to C.
You would only choose A in such instances where you were almost certain that you could prevent it from leading to C (+ some reason to prefer it over B, of course).
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
No, that is not correct. Look at well-off immigrants, universities where people have similar backgrounds, multinational corporations and countries like Monaco that only really accept wealthy people from everywhere. Ethnic issues barely come up as long as you mix wealthy people, it's when you mix the poor that you get problems. It is the economic problem that leads people to look for a scapegoat and then look for differences.
The unfair treatment may sometimes be a result of ethnic differences, but then the root cause is racism and I strongly disagree with accepting racism instead of fighting it. Why bow to the demands of irrational ideology that belongs in the Middle Ages? Especially if the majority does not follow it unless there are the aforementioned economic issues.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Beyond the first sentence, nothing of what you write there strictly contradicts what I wrote.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
A good dose of truth to that, Husar, but "haves" and "have lesses" seem to be a norm in all societies and eras. There will always be some potential for conflict in that.
Neither the communist (every one shares equally with none having more) nor 'lift all boats capitalism' (things are unequal, but the have lesses are so well off they don't really mind) approaches to ending this tension have dealt with the issue.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Indeed, there is however also a difference between a larger and a smaller wealth inequality. And then there is absolute poverty, which, when bad enough, seems to additionally cause problems.The difference between "only" having last year's flatscreen TV model and worrying about how to feed your children tomorrow while those swimming in money say it's all your own fault anyway.
The elimination of all conflict cannot be achieved with any approach I'd guess.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
A bit difficult to do that without contradicting me.
Whether it is toxic substances or bacteria (or both) that makes it inadvisable to lick the floor; I won't do it regardless.
In the immigration debate, I remain focused on outcome. I am not focused on whether it is 'racism' or the culture of the immigrants that is leading to problems. I just don't want the problems, whatever the exact cause.
Well, yes; in this context, I was interpreting 'mixing' (as used by Husar) as bringing people from different cultures into contact; i.e. immigration. Segregation is a frequent outcome of this type of mixing, which of course in turn can lead to ghettoisation under the right circumstances.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Such lazy attitudes tend to lead to unforeseen or even predictable consequences, I find it by far preferable to use more thorough approaches to problem solving.
And from a moral standpoint it seems rather selfish to, in the worst case, throw others under the bus to solve one's own problems. If our society always solved problems like that, you may find yourself under a bus sooner or later...
I think that is where education becomes important. And the right social circumstances of course. Which again tend to improve as wealth increases. I'd be careful though to say crime in general decreases with wealth, to some extent it just becomes less visible and less physical, which may still be an improvement of course. Up to the point where things like tax evasion cause poverty and therefore violent crime again etc.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Back to the topic:
it seems Fillon has a scandal with his wife to deal with which may affect the election outcome.
http://www.france24.com/en/20170124-...paid-wife-aide
A chance for Macron?
Macron is currently in Beirut, collecting support within the french embassy with the benediction of our current presidency. Thrills....
Macron is a wet firecracker, as we say here. Lil'bankster Celeb'!
Last edited by Tristuskhan; 01-25-2017 at 13:46.
"Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"
Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!
What do you mean by a wet firecracker, wis it anything like pre coalition lib dems or post blair labour?
Wet firecracker means the fuse looks promising when lit, but when fire reaches the powder: nihil!
The man has a tremendous ego, but has not displayed any kind of program until now. Howling it must MOVE! is nice, but towards what shall we move is another issue.
As to your questions about libdems and labour, I have ab-so-lu-tly no idea what's going on really on this remote island, my friend, but please, please try to let Corbyn out of this thread , have mercy!
Last edited by Tristuskhan; 01-25-2017 at 18:56.
"Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"
Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!
"wet firecracker," Petard mouillé" in french. Wet black powder can't explode. My translation would be "wet petard", reference to the device (petard) used to open the gates during the late middle ages early renaissance.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/petard
In french petard is used for the old weapon and firecrackers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
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