Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

[Leith]

Hi guys! I'm keeping an eye on things though I've been busy working and modding! Anyway, hello and welcome back Stazi! I followed your instructions to the letter regarding the LBM icons and the faction colours work except that green becomes pink and pink becomes green. I have no idea why pink and green trade places even though I have tried several things but the results are the same.

[Stazi]

Hi guys! I'm keeping an eye on things though I've been busy working and modding! Anyway, hello and welcome back Stazi! I followed your instructions to the letter regarding the LBM icons and the faction colours work except that green becomes pink and pink becomes green. I have no idea why pink and green trade places even though I have tried several things but the results are the same.

Which instructions do you mean? Could you post any screenshots what troubles you?

[Leith]

Your post #64. I did everything you mentioned using ultimate paint but in battle the main faction colour (Green) in the LBM is replaced by the secondary one ( pink ). What could have possibly gone wrong ?

[dimitrios the samian]

: UPDATE :

Ptolemaic Hoplites are finished , apart from the obvious they have been cleaned up considerable , no more blinking lights bulbs on their helmets & they have belts & a sharper ceaner almost linothorax tunic now , as well as looking better overall .

check yr email mac

cheers

[Stazi]

Your post #64. I did everything you mentioned using ultimate paint but in battle the main faction colour (Green) in the LBM is replaced by the secondary one ( pink ). What could have possibly gone wrong ?

Upload the original file you tired to convert and the I'll check it. Colors don't mean much for the MTW engine. It's all about their indexes in the color table. If color table wasn't corrupted during conversion the only way is to repaint your image switching those colors manually. You can also change colors definitions in the txt file but it'll affect all units so it's not really a solution.

BTW Maybe we should move to your thread because we are a little off-topic here?

[Leith]

Great news, dimitrios! I look forward to checking them out. Stazi, we might continue our LBM discussion later when my mod is closer to being released. Thank you for the valuable info though.

[macsen rufus]

Evening all,

Good to see you back, Leith.

@ DtS - thanks for that, will get to my email shortly

Stazi, I've tried out Pro Motion, and it is the dog's proverbials. However, it has so many functions, that just using it to make LBM icons is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more...

Also, Leith, remember that in original MTW even, the faction colours are reversed between the review panel icons and the battle icons - I don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but you can easily check it out with a unit like the desert archers - in the review panel their tunics are secondary colour, in battle icons they are primary colour. It seems the BIF and LBM faction colours were set up opposite ways round.

[dimitrios the samian]

...... is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more....

you must have soft nails mac !

Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .

[Stazi]

Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .

You can easily copy/paste color tables between images but you still can't exceed 256 colors. I usually combine such images in photoshop using standard RGB mode and then switch to indexed color mode using "Local (Selective)" palette. The problem arises if the image already has faction colors (green/pink) because you have to move them to the first 32 indexes manually.

[Leith]

That should explain it then, Mac! Thank you so much for providing the solution. I recoloured the LBM icons accordingly and they look as intended.

[macsen rufus]

The African hoplites look good

I haven't had them on the battlefield yet, but running the timer in BIF reader gives a good idea.

You seem to have cured them of the disfiguring skin diseases that afflicted my rough-n-ready version


As Stazi says, it's best to work with the images in RGB, though I go a slightly different route for indexing. I have saved a good, wide-ranging Photoshop palette with the faction colours in place and pretty much every colour likely to crop up, then I index via the Index>>Custom>>Load Palette route. All the colours will snap to the nearest available in the palette, you just have to be careful with that background green (#008000) and its near neighbours which are faction colour items (#007400 and #008400, iirc). I have a similar one for the 'LBM' palette where all the colours are identical to the BIF palette apart from the first and last (plus an identical palette in Pro Mo format, and that allows for the indexes to be remapped without moving them manually, if needed). It makes it easier for making icons.

(Actually, I suppose I could re-jig the 'LBM icon' palette so the faction colours are reversed, then any icons using them should come out looking the same on the review panel icons and the battle icons.... might try that someday.... would be easier than recolouring them individually)

I'll be sticking with PS for actual working - Pro Mo can probably do the job, but I'm a few years more experienced with PS and can get it to do what I want without alarming results in a reasonable time.

[macsen rufus]

Drumroll, please, as I introduce DtS's African hoplites.

I've got them up and running in campaign now, and they are great. I've made the two unit icons from a battle screenshot:



The unit to their left are thureophoroi.




This review panel gives an idea of the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies. In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.

[Leith]

Nice work, although a closer screenshot of DtS's African hoplites would have been nicer. The unit icons look great. What is also interesting is the variety of units available to the Ptolemic general.

[dimitrios the samian]

: UPDATE :

Hello Guys , I haven't been posting much , but my creative half has been active .
All is good in my part of the world & I hope all you guys are well also .
I have been continuing onwards to getting the Hellenics finished ..... but ! I have been sneaking in some time working on the new Slinger & I can say they are coming along very nicely ! I think they actually look better than the RTW ones .
I'm looking forward to getting this Hellenic package done before beginning on the Biblicals .
cheers for now

[macsen rufus]

I'm glad to say with ProMotion now firmly ensconced in my toolbox I'm going through some of the less appealing unit icons and doing some new ones, and I've also been sourcing some new info pics, too. I think I have all the big stuff done, and I'm tidying up the scruffy corners now.

Looking forward to getting the new BIFs integrated into the mix

[dimitrios the samian]

: UPDATE :

I'm a few days early in my bi-monthly update , but I couldn't wait any longer !
I have completed all the most important aspects of my new Slingers & Staff Slingers .
All 4 angles are complete with their 12 frames all fluid & in aspect !!!
It was looking bleak a few weeks ago , but I soldiered thru .
What I have found is I have a side project on the go & reward myself with little patches of creation , but always going back to work the majority of my time on my main project .
I still need to skin up these guys & i'll release them along with the Hellenic Archer/Peltast .
I should have them done before the end of this month .....
cheers

[dimitrios the samian]

...... the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies..... In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.

wow ! I'm Greek & I will have too google all the different units .
If you get time Mac , do a new Faction Preview for the Ptolemies

[dimitrios the samian]

: UPDATE :

Hellenic Bif ( Akondistes & Archers ) almost done ......
Keep an eye on yr mailbox mac , clould be over the weekend or at the latest early next week .
They look much much better than my Beta Version that appeared on EE 0.9 & if the original HTW Artist could see them I'm sure he would be drooling also .

: SNEAK PREVIEW :



With all this work I've done on these guys , my mind kept drifting of to the Thracians & how we need a genuine Peltast .
I doodled up these rather quickly ....
Just some heavy erasing back into the transparent green , then cutting & pasting .
Maybe some time in 2017 ! ....... if my enthusiasm doesn't wane .
cheers

[dimitrios the samian]

[I]: UPDATE :

Peltasts done !
I have had very little time these past few months but I still managed to finish of this basic bif the Peltasts .
What needs doing now is just drawing in the quiver & sword holder on his waist .
It will take quite a few hours as there are 22x12 to do ...264 off in total .
I should have them ready I hope by Xmas or early New Year & if the weather gets very hot perhaps sooner
( as more spare time is available during A/C times )
cheers [/I]


pssss ... mac , sorry I told you to keep an eye on yr mailbox , my timing was way out

[macsen rufus]

We're hitting the heating season here, now ... again more spare time (in between shifts at work...)

Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of these - one with quivers and one without - because some units from this BIF are not missile units All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.

[dimitrios the samian]

Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of....................... already have
All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.......... all advanced on that aspect too

See .....

[macsen rufus]

Attachment 19237Attachment 19238

I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?

Wow YanBG, that was fast And it looks just the job - feather, mail and sandals are good as they are. The shoulder guards should remain as mail, imho, as that would be closest to the original armour.

If we use an oversize BIF plate we have more than enough space, so if you could include walk and run animations with the bow, too, that would be icing on the cake. For the javelin/pilum throw I'm happy to go with whatever you think looks best, now I know how to place items with BIFreader and don't have to rely on pre-exisitng co-ordinates

That's excellent work, thanks so much

[macsen rufus]

Attachment 19237Attachment 19238

I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?

Wow YanBG, that was fast And it looks just the job - feather, mail and sandals are good as they are. The shoulder guards should remain as mail, imho, as that would be closest to the original armour.

If we use an oversize BIF plate we have more than enough space, so if you could include walk and run animations with the bow, too, that would be icing on the cake. For the javelin/pilum throw I'm happy to go with whatever you think looks best, now I know how to place items with BIFreader and don't have to rely on pre-exisitng co-ordinates

That's excellent work, thanks so much

[dimitrios the samian]

Awesome work Yan ....... so quick , well proportioned & cleanly drawn .
Im with Mac , shoulders as mail , but I would darken the sandals to black or very dark brown
I look forward to them , in the Roman Wars Mod .
cheers

[macsen rufus]

Hi YanBG,

That looks great! I'm sure I can rejig the spacing for the final BIF, but I'll have to get back to you later, as I'm off to work soon.

The spear animation looks good for the sword thrust as it would fit the traditional 1-2 attack of banging with the shield then slipping the sword in - it will take some work with coordinates but I'm sure that would work out for the best Roman fighting animation ever seen in MTW-land I think the throw could do with being slightly more 'over arm' if possible at this stage.

Anyway, more over the weekend, gotta run now...

[macsen rufus]

My saturday shift has been cancelled, so I have an extra day of weekend to play with

Yan - I don't know if it's practical at this stage, but would it be possible to give the archers quivers on their backs? The image here shows how they were worn.

About putting the BIF together - I think the best thing is to use your usual technique at whatever size it comes out as. Then I can extract the frames as BMPs, make a multi-layer image in Photoshop and cut down the blank spaces then redefine the action rectangle co-ordinates all the way through the layers. Then I have a cunning plan to realise curved shields for the legionaries to get around the usual MTW limitation of flat shields. With a few extra shields and weapons, there is also a lot of scope here for various auxiliaries, so this is getting to be a really exciting BIF .

[macsen rufus]

Hi Yan,

Thanks for the reply - I don't think there's any need for a separate death cycle for the archers, it's too fleeting an event to be worth the time and the plate-space. The throwing action would be very nice

Do you mean a spritesheet?

Er, I don't really know - I've never been through the process from a 3d model before, so have no idea what's involved going that route, or the terminology

On reflection, I think it would be best to have the individual files, thinking of how to compile the plates - that should make it pretty straightforward (if somewhat repetitive) to align the actions through all 12 frames.

[dimitrios the samian]

Hello Guys ......

Amazing Yan !!
The Software & technique that you use is a godsend ,
I'm actually doing quivers at present & its pixel by pixel

Ok onto my thoughts .......
I agree the spear animation is brilliantly suitable for the sword "bang & stab"
& I concur it will be best in MTW for certain .

I also agree again with Macsen re: The throw .....
It definitely needs to be higher/overhead or 'over arm' it is actually just a bit to low ...

Re: Quivers , Mac I'm glad you mentioned them !! ......

Yan , Im pleased you say quivers are "negligible" .
Having already seen your first piece of work back months ago & just only moments ago checked these Romans.
I point out the following .

Quivers are needed on

Walk2 ...............................Obvoiusly
Run2......................................" "
Stand2....................................." "
Shoot......................................." "

But are also needed on ....

Charge ........................... Charging holding his sword .... with quiver visible, so is clearly an Archer .
Attack 1 or 2 ? ................. As above , easily identified as just an archer in Melee with sword fighting .

I also recommend "if possible making" the quivers be full with bows .
I managed this by hand drawing single pixel lines/strokes .....( if its not possible to render its ok )

.......................

Yan > About those death Animations .... I agree with Mac , no need for new ones .

Macsen ....
I know it is a daunting task of porting these over into the 640x640 Bif Plates .....
but I'm confident the method you suggested above to Yan will work .........
( I can help if you get stuck ) but you should be fine

.... I have already had a quick look & I'm confident both Archer & Hastati should fit tightly but nicely into a 640x640 plate with room for shields & weapons .

I can draught up a jpeg picture of a 640Bif Plate with notes & explanation to show .

Ok I gotta go , Photoshop awaits for a few hrs.

To you both , this is exciting !!
cheers guys .

[dimitrios the samian]

Ok ....

Here it is roughly done up on Photoshop .
Roman png opened at full size & then cut & pasted over into the 640 bmp ...... ( so never mind the colour being out )
This is one possible design/layout for your consideration macsen ......




The Archer takes top 3 Rows .

>> TOP ROW - Walk x4 - Runx4 , Stand x2 (3 may fit)
>> 2nd ROW - 1 or 2 Stand - Chargex4 - Attacksx3
>> 3rd ROW - 1xAttack - Die 2 min - 4xShoot

The main Roman takes rows 4 & 5

>>ROW 4 -
Walk x4 - Run x4 - Stand x4 ........ these should ? fit across comfortably being narrower than the archer .

>> ROW 5 -
Charge x4 - Attack x4 ........................... should have spare pixels .

..........................

** Mac , the Pilum throw I believe will come from the the Charge at bottom ?
So I've drawn in the jav to illustrate it .... it should work well enough .

** LOOKING at the BIF TOp to BOTTOM **

We will have to reduce the height from 119 to 115 .....

Why ?
So we can get enough/more space for shields & weapons .

Some quick calcs 115x5 = 575 Leaving approx. 65 pixels ....

Mac , perhaps the Archer can do without a feather ? ...............if yes "problem solved"
If feather is required on Archer , we can clip 1 px from top & 3 from the shadows on base .

So a strip 65x640 for shields & weapons will be sufficient .......
That is if shields can be placed on their sides instead of upright ?

[dimitrios the samian]

Hello Yan

Great work once again.

Ok , Yes do a set with quivers for both fightings and charge also ........ (and ofcourse a set without )
This way we have all options covered.......

Yan , its good you made 2 sets of fighting animations , despite code only allows 1 can be used....( great for choice now and future mac Aux ptions)

About vanilla Bowman ......never did correctly .
The new bigger plates give us more space so more realism can be acheived .
All Bowman can do with these graphical improvements ive outlined .

Its just great timing all this !! ,......
As my vision for the Hellenic Archers gave me these ideas months ago & here we will see them on the battlefield !!
Great work guys , lets do this.....2017 is exciting !
Cheers