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Thread: Casse/Catuvellauni?

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    Member Member Metalstrm's Avatar
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    Default Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Ok so I felt interested about this tribe, especially when I searched it up on Google and practically found nothing. Some better sifting revealed only very little about the Catuvellauni, especially the Casse in particular. Apparently the Casse were only a 'subtribe' of the Catuvellauni, and there is very, very little information about them on the web at least.

    Can anyone tell me were the EB team got their info from? I looked at the bibliography thread but there wasn't anything directly related to the tribe. Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before.
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    The poison tree bears more fruit.

    As you have discovered, the Cassi are mentioned once in Caesar's Gallic Wars, as one of five tribes or septs who surrender to Caesar when he is fighting the Cassivellaunus, leader of the Catuvallauni. Someone suggested, because of the similarity in names, that Cassivellaunus was actually from this tribe (I can't find any reference to who first suggested this, or how they explain why the Cassi would be stabbing their own king in the back and telling Caesar how best to burn down their own homes)

    Anyway, the person who was put in charge of all things Celtic at EB further elaborated on this, saying that the Cassi were precursors of the Catuvellauni and may have attempted to unify the Britons before all the trouble with Caesar, Cassivellaunus and the Trinovantes started. He also changed the name to "Casse" for no apparent reason.

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    Member Member Metalstrm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Hehe, so it's been discussed before?

    Ok, as a matter of fact, like you said I just found that they were Cassi and not Casse. There is obviously quite some more information about Cassi than Casse :)

    Perhaps the EB team can enlighten us as to why the e and not the i?

    I did find that they might have been precursors to the Catuvellauni somewhere, btw.
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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    EB Team: DO SOMETHING. Admit you have been landed with a problem and you won't keep getting a post a week like this from puzzled Celticists!
    Firstly, it has been admitted there is a problem with the Celtic quotations, but this is the first time that I see any doubt cast on the name of the Casse.

    Secondly, it's their mod so they don't have to do anything. Demanding it in the way you do is not likely to win them to your view.
    Last edited by Ludens; 03-29-2008 at 18:49.
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    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    The poison tree bears more fruit.
    Anyway, the person who was put in charge of all things Celtic at EB further elaborated on this, saying that the Cassi were precursors of the Catuvellauni and may have attempted to unify the Britons before all the trouble with Caesar, Cassivellaunus and the Trinovantes started. He also changed the name to "Casse" for no apparent reason.
    Was this Ranika?

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    I presume it was "Ranika", I can't think anyone else did it. And, Ludens, I'm afraid there more than just doubt on the Celtic translations... while it is "their mod" it began as a complaint of a lack of historical accuracy in RTW and continues to pride itself on accuracy. If historical accuracy remains the goal of the mod, then the damage which has been done needs fixing as soon as possible and as far as the language side is concerned, it can be done without too much difficulty if we start to work together.
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Well I can certainly answer the first part, Cassi is a Latin noun plural, like Tullii or Jullii, or Hastati. That has no bearing on the British pronounciation at all.
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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    And, Ludens, I'm afraid there more than just doubt on the Celtic translations...
    So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

    As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.
    Last edited by Ludens; 03-29-2008 at 21:44.
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Forget the quotes. They are gone. Don't worry yourself or us with them. You won't get a release with the changes until 1.1 is done though.

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    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

    As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.
    There exists reason to believe the guy was a complete fraud.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Erm - excuse me, but what particular reason does anyone have to take your word on it at face value ?
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalstrm
    Ok so I felt interested about this tribe, especially when I searched it up on Google and practically found nothing. Some better sifting revealed only very little about the Catuvellauni, especially the Casse in particular. Apparently the Casse were only a 'subtribe' of the Catuvellauni, and there is very, very little information about them on the web at least.

    Can anyone tell me were the EB team got their info from? I looked at the bibliography thread but there wasn't anything directly related to the tribe. Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before.
    Ranika's direct answer to this question more than two years ago was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    Actually the king of the period is speculation. I didn't say we 'knew', but rather, there is reference to a king much later, who lived around the time, and attempted to expand his lands and engage in trade; it's an assumption, but it's as much as we have for 'specifics', and does fit with material evidence from the period (grave finds with plenty of apparently war dead, a lot of trade evidence, including foreign records, etc.). The name of the tribe locally would be rather unknown, though they are generally refered to as the Casse or Cassi today (the proto-Belgic tribe that inhabitted their region and began their conquest). They more or less morphed into the later Casse, and then the Catuvellauni. We do know their land was rich in trade, with copious finds of objects from foreign lands, and many foreign references to tin trading with the king of the region. It was likely this trade that funded their earliest ambitions, helping to form them into the body we'd later recognize as the Casse. This, being the first recognizable name of the tribe that become overlords of the region, was the best we could do for the name. The only alternative would be a far too generic name, such as Pretanne or something similar. Since it was the Casse who eventually exercised the most power of the pre-Roman tribes and kingdoms, they seem to be the most reasonable selection. Clearly though, yes, there is conjecture. There is conjecture with all factions, even those that wrote extensively. Without a time machine, conjecture is inevitable. However, we try to make the most reasonable assumptions as best we can.
    It was a good thread, with someone who was an ex-archaeologist and reconstruction historian in Ireland and Scotland doing the question asking and Ranika and Psycho responding. Nothing like the way some of the people now seem to conduct themselves.

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

    As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.
    You should obviously believe Riadach, because what he said was right. Curiously, in a discussion on a mod called Europa Barbarorum, people seem to be almost behaving like Barbarian tribes and believing the word of their "trusted kinsman" over that of a stranger, rather than using reason. Do some searching. It's not that hard to find plenty of stuff which shows Ranika had been making stuff up and Riadach was speaking with authority and could back up his arguments. It was a shame, because he could have helped, but he was driven off.
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    EB2 Baseless Conjecturer Member blacksnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    EB Team: DO SOMETHING. Admit you have been landed with a problem and you won't keep getting a post a week like this from puzzled Celticists!
    Very seriously, self-righteous outrage does absoutely nothing to further your case. You have succeeded in invalidating your entire argument with two sentences. The EB team neither condones nor respects angry ranting. We owe you, Elmetiacos, absolutely nothing. Loudly indulging in an inflated sense of entitlement does nothing to change this. If you have additional criticism, share it constructively or expect to be ignored.

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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Erm - excuse me, but what particular reason does anyone have to take your word on it at face value ?
    Don't take lobf's word, don't take my word. Examine the facts. For instance, let's look at the archives - way back when this forum was on another forum:
    http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...p?t-16757.html
    Since I joined Europa Barbarorum, I have gotten access to the skills of Raighnigha. Ranika is a simpler way to spell his name I suppose. He lives in the Aran islands outside Ireland, and grew up on an island called Dungalloigh. He didn't have TV, cinema etc. There was a monestary there from old times. So aside from the usual activities of kids, playing physical games, he also read a lot inside the monestary. He learned a Celtic language before learning English. He is right now working for the catholic church, translating old documents from the monestary that nobody has gotten around to yet.
    "Raighnigha"... the name does not exist. Go search. Of all the millions of people whose names are on the web, there is no other "Raighnigha" anywhere. Moreover, the name can't be Irish anyway; its spelling is wrong. In Irish orthography there's a rule called caol le caol agus leathan le leathan which divides vowels into broad (a, o, u) and slender (e and i) and which forces consonants or clusters to only have one group on either side - so you could have *Raighniagha or *Raighnighea but not Raighnigha. Only someone who doesn't speak Irish would miss this. Someone who, for instance, would cut and paste their Irish sig from the Guiness website, complete with spelling mistake...
    The island he was supposed to grow up does not exist:
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~daraoc/A...anIslands.html
    There are three Aran Islands, Inishmore, Inishmaan and Inishere (in Irish Inis Mór, Inis Meáin, Inis Oírr) plus two little atolls called the Brannocks. There is no "Dungalloigh" on these islands or anywhere else. The monastery on the Aran Islands he's supposed to have hung around in as a boy has been in ruins since the early 15th Century.

    I'm sorry to be a bearer of such bad tidings, but this has been a big confidence trick! Now we have to move on and start to fix things.
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    Lies We Can Belive In Member Barry Soteiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    I'm sorry to be a bearer of such bad tidings, but this has been a big confidence trick! Now we have to move on and start to fix things.
    Lol this make me laugh a lot !

    "Now we have to move on and start fix things" In what aspect did you ever contribute except some useless and aggressive criticism ?
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    EB2 Baseless Conjecturer Member blacksnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Don't take lobf's word, don't take my word. Examine the facts. For instance, let's look at the archives - way back when this forum was on another forum:
    http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...p?t-16757.html
    That's really funny, Elmetiacos - this is very nearly identical to a PM sent to me by a person who has been active in these specific threads. It's almost enough to think there has been some kind of behind-the-scenes collaboration on all of this.

    By the way, congratulations on hitting a post count of 27 - you seem to have had a very strong, coordinated opinion on all of these things since you appeared three weeks ago.

    Now we have to move on and start to fix things.
    Here you seem to have come to a conclusion on behalf of the EB team. I find this very interesting.

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnail
    Very seriously, self-righteous outrage does absoutely nothing to further your case. You have succeeded in invalidating your entire argument with two sentences. The EB team neither condones nor respects angry ranting. We owe you, Elmetiacos, absolutely nothing. Loudly indulging in an inflated sense of entitlement does nothing to change this. If you have additional criticism, share it constructively or expect to be ignored.
    Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks. You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you. I am not interested in what debt is owed (we are not really iron age warrior chiefs, after all) but in the truth. This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good. I am not even making a demand - as I've said, I've picked up a great deal in my 20+ years of studying things Celtic and when and if the team decides to act, I'll type up the few pages of notes I've scribbled and give them to you. You can check them out for veracity - I'll post some helpful links and cite some helpful books.
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    But blacksnail, with the quotes removed, it's soooo much easier to attack the person than it is to point out other actual things in the mod that are wrong! Plus it's adhominemy delicious!

  20. #20
    EB2 Baseless Conjecturer Member blacksnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks.
    I can't agree that "we" have had egos and ad hominem attacks involved. The only ego I have when it comes to this mod is making the technical end support the historical end, and even then I'm the first person to state both publicly and privately that the EB1 1.0 recruitment system is the best of a bad technical situation. If you wish to put aside your ego and your ad hominem attacks, by all means go ahead. I am no historian, I have never attempted to present myself as a historian, and I cannot speak to the veracity of anything historical in nature.

    What I can speak to is a poisonous environment in the public forums which I do not appreciate. It turns EB team members away from answering public posts and it turns fans away from the forums who think it's becoming a cesspit, as I have stated before.

    You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you.
    It's interesting that you bring up deception. Please speak to the nearly identical post you have made compared to the PM I recently received. I would like a reasonable explanation on how two different people would be parroting the exact same points, links, and urging the same outcome without some kind of coordination. If there was coordination, please speak to it directly.

    This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good.
    Please clarify exactly what you mean here. Define what word will spread, who will spread it, and who will be doing the debasing.

    Let's look at the history of this particular situation. The issue recently came up. We said "we are looking into it." The issue came up again, in a thread started by you (as your second post to the ORG, no less), and we said "we are already looking into it." You stated that you weren't aware of the other threads, had said your piece, and would have no more to say on the matter. Then in this thread you seem surprised and frustrated that we have not rushed a patch out to address your concerns. If I am somehow misrepresenting this course of events, please show me where I am wrong.

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    Combustion Member beatoangelico's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks. You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you. I am not interested in what debt is owed (we are not really iron age warrior chiefs, after all) but in the truth. This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good. I am not even making a demand - as I've said, I've picked up a great deal in my 20+ years of studying things Celtic and when and if the team decides to act, I'll type up the few pages of notes I've scribbled and give them to you. You can check them out for veracity - I'll post some helpful links and cite some helpful books.
    have you also studied years how to behave in internet discussions? Look, I don't know anything about this celtic stuff, but what I do know is that if someone who no one has ever seen before comes in and present itself as the bearer of the Truth and treat the team as a bunch of fools, he can't have better reactions than the ones you have get.
    Last edited by beatoangelico; 03-30-2008 at 01:13.

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnail
    What I can speak to is a poisonous environment in the public forums which I do not appreciate. It turns EB team members away from answering public posts and it turns fans away from the forums who think it's becoming a cesspit, as I have stated before.


    It's interesting that you bring up deception. Please speak to the nearly identical post you have made compared to the PM I recently received. I would like a reasonable explanation on how two different people would be parroting the exact same points, links, and urging the same outcome without some kind of coordination. If there was coordination, please speak to it directly.


    Please clarify exactly what you mean here. Define what word will spread, who will spread it, and who will be doing the debasing.

    Let's look at the history of this particular situation. The issue recently came up. We said "we are looking into it." The issue came up again, in a thread started by you (as your second post to the ORG, no less), and we said "we are already looking into it." You stated that you weren't aware of the other threads, had said your piece, and would have no more to say on the matter. Then in this thread you seem surprised and frustrated that we have not rushed a patch out to address your concerns. If I am somehow misrepresenting this course of events, please show me where I am wrong.
    The poison is not of my making, nor is it of the making of anyone else who has been critical of this aspect of EB. Whenever it has been raised, the debate has gone in the same direction, that direction in which you are now seeking to move it. The hard facts raised by the critic are totally ignored and instead, they are subject to an immediate ad hominem attack, whether in the form of "How dare you insult our friend, Ranika" or "Oh no, not not this one again" The valid points raised don't seem to matter. You've ignored the irrefutable facts I've presented to you: that Ranika's little biography is utter rubbish: his name is mock Irish, he grew up on fictitious island and studied in a ruined monastery. Therefore, the basis on which you were taking his information on trust is completely undermined. Someone conned you.

    But you don't seem to care about that. You only want to slate me for getting annoyed with the way objections are continually being raised and continually being ignored. And from the outside, it does look as if they are being ignored. It's more than 6 months since Riadach brought all this up, and I gather this wasn't the first instance.

    The explanation for the link, which again, I must point out, you seem to be wilfully ignoring in favour of a veiled accusation of sock puppetry, is that I sent it first in a PM to someone else a few days ago. It's that simple. It also means you have been in possession of the information which discredits "Ranika" as a source and yet you have ignored it. You seem to think, like the board of Enron, that if you don't talk about a problem, it goes away. The more people you shout down, the more people will take a dislike to you. It's therefore only a matter of time before word gets out what is going on - unless you grow up and stop spitting in the faces of the people who are trying to help you make EB better.
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    Member Member Metalstrm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Urrr... I didn't know my question would end up this way. Hope I offended nobody. Still I think it should be Cassi and not Casse correct?
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    I'm sorry, too. Not your fault, it's probably mine for jumping in, it's just I'm getting impatient. Cassi is Latin, yes. IMHO, either Cassi or Cassoi would have been the Brythonic and Gaulish as well, but in EB Casse was chosen.
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Should would we just cut off parts of the map that people have problems with for theoretical 'what ifs' even when based on evidence? oh wait, that would be ridiculous. thanks for coming, friends.

    many people in the world and life might be able to say true things, but not always be right. having said 1 aspect which is valid does not make following aspects equally so. for instance, Riadach's words about the LACK of information was correct- DUH! that's why we all don't know it by heart like Greco-Roman. Seriously now, that ain't special. He was right that in a void of information, some recreation is theoretical- such as the recreation of Indo-European language... HELLO- there was NO written Proto-IndoEuropean language, but we use it and Academia uses it, even though many scholars look down upon such since it's not founded in 10 layers of authority.

    we have removed quotes which are naturally theoretical in nature, which we cannot find sources upon, because Raidach and others have been helpful and pointed out that this stuff is TOO theoretical and concerning. That doesn't mean they were made up- or anything else was. It also doesn't mean they're truth either. They were damn good quotes regardless, but you don't see Old Norse in EB for the obvious reason, despite some nice lines [see my sig].

    So, we look into some things that are hard to research which some fans have brought up without concrete evidence and find out they might have a point- remove it, and you guys are still pissy? that is not the way to act with people who want to do the right thing. that kind of thing makes me want to keep whatever you don't want just to spite you. if you get an attitude YOU DESERVE IT AND MORE because of your own inappropriate attitude. it is a fact that it is not good to reward bad behavior, so we shouldn't even tell you guys we took the quotes out at least in my opinion

    It's unbelievable how much smack is talked on this, having no proof of anything or than rhetoric- and internet sources on Medieval Irish don't really mean anything concerning language ca. 270BC. i suppose i am just lucky to not have people saying 'any German student who has learned Middle High German would know these rules' which i would have to laugh my ass off about... it's akin to 'any English student who has learned Middle English would know these rules'... and so on.

    I suppose some might believe the Swēbōzez (the correct form of the name, btw, to be ensurably enacted in EB2) should be called Swebi, some kind of fake wannabe accurate language based in Latin? It's all or nothing. Proto-Germanic has an -ī ending (usually feminine īn-class) based in Indo-European too which potentially brought about the Latin versions, but it's hardly accurate to use the Latin.

    what is proof? at a bare minimum, a quotation and CITATION in a scholarly article or book... this is not hard at all. you see, the great things about books is that it is much harder for little children and people off of the street to publish their whim as fact, because it takes money. whole establishments have been built so that one can trust what is written even if money is aquired for publishing. EB never just trusts some strange people who loudly proclaim their expertise, thus why Raidach and others who outright make insulting remarks about things they have no clue, get the reaction they do.

    ps- you won't find blitzkrieg80 in any German dictionary and there's a rule where names don't have numbers which come before or after them- or even in the middle. but believe me, i have a real name, and it's really derived from a Germanic language.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 03-30-2008 at 05:14.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  26. #26
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Not to be dismissive, yet this was an issue I noticed a ways back. Still, decided a discussion of Cassi vs anything was at best non sequitur as it can not be demonstrated that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes (Atrebates, Catuvellauni-Cassi, Cantiaci, and others) had even established themselves in southeast Britain by the middle of the 3rd century BC. To this point I cite the late up tick of the Latene in the southeast. To some extent, all very similar to the Swabo issue in Germania, for very different reasons. In this case, as is my nature, I for one let sleeping dogs lie, till disturbed by an unruly racket. Without doubt I file this thread under, a rose by any other name.
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-30-2008 at 04:45.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Who else here thinks that we should just let the EB team deal with this internally? *raises hand* It's clearly a sensitive subject, and I must say, the accusations do make valid a more thorough investigation.

    That being said, in order to make this game work, inferences have to be made at some points. The situation with the Casse is no different than various aspects of just about every faction.

  28. #28
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Aye, for one.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Not to be dismissive, yet this was an issue I noticed a ways back. Still, decided a discussion of Cassi vs anything was at best non sequitur as it can not be demonstrated that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes (Atrebates, Catuvellauni-Cassi, Cantiaci, and others) had even established themselves in southeast Britain by the middle of the 3rd century BC. To this point I cite the late up tick of the Latene in the southeast. To some extent, all very similar to the Swabo issue in Germania, for very different reasons. In this case, as is my nature, I for one let sleeping dogs lie, till disturbed by an unruly racket. Without doubt I file this thread under, a rose by any other name.
    See, this is a good post. I agree. And I appreciate your other posts toward quotes and such, btw, Cmacq. The Belgic invasion is theoretical. I currently and am always going to annoy EB and say the Celtic ethnicities should say something to that effect as if it is not fact - recently I suggested that the Iverni trait and others say 'They believe themselves to come from Ibera' as the Irish legend goes, because we all know Wessex nobility thought they were descendants of Odin, rather than that being the case, and the Romans similarly thought they came from Troy. I feel inclined to pester because it is my nature and because i have done some amateur research into Celts, being a wannabe 'Barbarianist' with more of a focus on Northern Europe. It cannot be proven that the Iverni did NOT come from Iberia, but the theory is too much for my taste.

    While the idea that the Suebi were as expansive as represented in RTW by the vastness of Germanic tribes is unrealistic, there is no alternative (well, at least not recorded by Rome or in use at that time), esp. for a name. It would be very boring to have no faction in Northern Europe (or the British Isles for the matter). The term IE*sue and its deep connotations is widely attested and the Germanic usage was very similar to later confederations and what is the self-identity of many modern Germanic lang. speakers (Deut). In my mind, it is simply a self-designation rather than any political hegemony. Of course, i joined EB to help recreate the Proto-Germanic Voice Mod, much later than the creation of EB, so I had no input on the formation of the faction. Although I have been doing my best to justify what is in-game, using real information and expertise, based on my delvings into a VERY theoretical and unknown past. I did an all-nighter last night revamping the barrack/MIC so the 'Army-Fence' concept no longer annoys me past endurance, and I am quite happy with it. Similarly, the 1.1 GOVT and other buildings and aspects are quite lovely with accompanying language, reconstructed past Early Proto-Germanic which is still too late for EB. I am looking foward to releasing the Proto-Germanic Voice Mod so that the Swebōzēz are complete and can enjoy their full glory btw, it's amazing how weird it looks- just you wait.

    ps- cmacq, i will some day answer your Consonant Vowel Shift interesting question/contextual delving- sorry i have been so busy with other stuff- like complaining about fans
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 03-30-2008 at 05:11.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  30. #30
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casse/Catuvellauni?

    Right,

    thats a hoot, indeed,

    I've always wondered why, that on the English branch of my family tree, the Wessexers claimed decent from a person called Woden, while the Kentsters picked a nameless prince of Troy. Possibly due to their long honeymoon with the Italics, no doubt?

    Not to be even more obtuse...
    as there also may be a certain logic why some Roman families believed a decent from the Trojans. However, I don't want to stir that particular pot of beans on an open flame, if you get my drift. I will hint, that this has something to do with the nature of what is Greek and nonGreek-Greek; as well as the native name and words of the Etruscans, with whom some prominent Latins intermarried.

    Maybe its like the man says; 'have you ever wondered why the murder rates so low, but the accident rates so bloody high???'

    PS. don't rush, I understand.
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-30-2008 at 08:27.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

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