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Thread: Playing Allies against one another

  1. #1
    Member Member Bilbo of Bag End's Avatar
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    Is this going to come back and bite me in the @$$ ? Seems like I'm doing alot of this lately. Constantly switching loyalties as the game scenario changes. Whatever is in my best interest, I go for it. Seems like everytime I kill a spy or catch an assassin it is from one of my supposed allies anyway....

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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Don't try to read too much into MTW's diplomatic dynamic. MTW pays homage to Pericles who believed that life was a nearly constant state of war punctuated by brief periods of peace. Basically consider yourself to be at war with everyone despite your political alignments. Leave a province bordering ally's lands unprotected and I guarantee before long your ally will swipe that province from you. The more complex political model seen in games like EU2, Civilization III, Star Empires IV, etc. is not present here.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Member Member Coucy's Avatar
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    So what is the difference between being Neutral and Allied with a neighbor? IOW, what practical gameplay advantage do you get by being Allied with someone?
    Sire de Coucy

  4. #4
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Well in Shogun being allied with someone also meant you received extra income money (koku) as implied by trade, etc. I don't know if this holds true for MTW (it should but oddly enough MTW's manual mentions nothing about alliances) but it is still better to be allied with someone than to be Neutral. As an ally you're less likely to be attacked. Peace of mind as it were; you can keep less men garrisoned in a province bordering an ally than if they were Neutral.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

    Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony

    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)

  5. #5
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Spino:
    Well in Shogun being allied with someone also meant you received extra income money (koku) as implied by trade, etc.

    Whaaaa??? We MUST have been playing different games!

    (it should but oddly enough MTW's manual mentions nothing about alliances)[/QUOTE]

    Doesn't anybody actually READ the manual??

    The manual actually covers just about every point, but whether it does so as thoroughly as it should is another question.

    Read it again!

    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    I read the manual, all 80 pages worth. I think you misunderstood my intention. The manual mentions alliances but not in detail. Please point out the specific page that covers alliances and their benefits! There is a brief reference to making alliances in the 'Emmissaries', 'Princesses', and 'Information Buttons and Parchments' section but nothing more. Are you confusing the manual with the strategy guide?

    I am also playing a Shogun campaign on Hard(Warlord Edition with the most recent 1.02 patch) and am currently allied with the Mori clan. When I pull up the Economy page I am greeted with a breakdown of my total income: Farm, Mine, Trade, and ALLIANCE.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

    Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony

    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)

  7. #7
    Member Member Bilbo of Bag End's Avatar
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    This game is teaching me all about loyalties.... I don't trust any faction, allies, neutral, or enemy.
    I left a province open to defend against an aggressor once (why not- it was bordering my ALLIES) and next thing I know I'm fighting on two fronts. My damned allies turned on me without hesitation to take full advantage of my vulnerability.

  8. #8
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    I am also playing a Shogun campaign on Hard(Warlord Edition with the most recent 1.02 patch) and am currently allied with the Mori clan. When I pull up the Economy page I am greeted with a breakdown of my total income: Farm, Mine, Trade, and ALLIANCE.

    I think I got it, you just want to "see" your alliances. Correct?

    Bottow of the screen to the left, click on the icon with the "shaking" hands. Pretty self-explanatory.

    My manual has the terrible habit of getting up and walking away! When it decides to come back I'll let you know.

    ...and their benefits!

    Right, the manual does NOT go into that great of detail. You can do a search on the forum for alliances, but the greatest benefit is that your allies will not, generally, attack you. You may leave your borders lightly defended and feel "fairly" secure, as long as your ally is fairly secure as well.

    If your ally is losing badly, and, perhaps, is in desparate need of cash and/or land, then its a good bet he'll break the alliance by attacking you. Most especially, if you have a border province that is not well defended.

    I feel, though it hasn't been proven, that you can strengthen your alliance through marriages. The manual sorta hints at this.

    That's about all there is in terms of documentation of alliances.

    Sorry, I just realized there's more.

    Other reason your ally may break an alliance are, if your ex-communicated. Say, your weak (have low "influence") and/or losing the game badly and you attack a Catholic neighbor, the Pope is likely to ex-communicate you. Your fellow Catholics are likely to break alliances.

    If your strong (have high "influence") then its a good chance your fellow Catholics will ignore the Pope.

    If your aligned with two factions, and one of them attacks the other, then you'll be asked to choose between them. You'll need to weigh your interest in choosing. I most often will choose to remain allied with the faction that borders my provinces.

    Attack the Pope and you'll be ex-communicated. (See above.)

    Sometimes, an ally will join you in battle. This doesn't happen too often. When it does keep in mind that if your alliance wins the battle, the province will go to the faction with the largest army. Not sure if that's the largest army "prior" to the battle or after the battle is over. This is mentioned in the manual.

    Lastly, if a faction your allied with is eliminated from the game, you "may" inherit some of its provinces.

    There may be some small thing or two I can't recall this moment, but I believe I've covered most of the bases.

    Keep in mind, you can find answers to most questions by searching the forum. Check for the "Table of Contents" for links to all sorts of issues.
    http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001388.html

    Enjoy and Have Fun!
    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


    The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
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  9. #9
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    Well in Shogun being allied with someone also meant you received extra income money (koku) as implied by trade, etc.

    Confused by the above, in Shogun you do not recieve any income benefit through Alliance, implied or otherwise.

    In Shogun, if you keep a fair sized garrison(s) in your border province(s) then your ally is "less" likely to attack you. That is, til you least expect it!!

    Choose to not garrison a border province (or have it "lightly" garrisoned) and ally or no, you'll be attacked.
    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


    The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
    Graphics files and Text files
    Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.

  10. #10
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    FYI in the updated version of shogun you do indeed get an income of 250 koku pr. ally.
    Nope - no sig what so ever.

  11. #11
    Member Member TheViking's Avatar
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    I never trust allies or neutral factions. But enemy factions I do cuz I know that they will attack me whenever they want to or think they have a chance. With the others u never know when they attacks, cuz they will do that sooner or later.

    Always do things to others b4 they do it to u

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    There I see my father.
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    They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

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  12. #12
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    It would be good if you could interact more with your allies.
    That allies broke there loyalty is surely true to history, but as long as two factions are allied they should be able to have advantages.
    Why can`t I ask an ally to help me in some way? Why can`t I let an allied army pass to my territory?

    There should definitly be more possibilities!

  13. #13
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Lastly, if a faction your allied with is eliminated from the game, you "may" inherit some of its provinces.
    --------------------------------------------
    ToranagaSama, have you or anyone else ever inheirited any provinces from another faction through an alliance or marriage with them? I have yet to see it and was curious if anyone else has. Everytime a faction has been eliminated in my campaigns, any provinces left have gone rebel. In STW at least some would side with an ally.

    ------------------
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    Member Member Bilbo of Bag End's Avatar
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    Interesting situation I have never encountered before happened last night. I was invade by a bitter rival (what else is new!) and when the battle begins I see a third army approaching.... the French. Though at war with the French at this time, they were allied with me against the Arab invaders. After the battle ended successfully, the French were kind enough to offer back SOME OF MY TROOPS THEY HAD ALSO CAPTURED during the fray.

    Truly, if there ever was a game that so exhibited the true nature of its times, it is MTW!


  15. #15
    Member Member Coucy's Avatar
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    You say the AI is less likely to declare war on an ally. Hmmm, my game experience in this regard leads me to doubt this, but perhaps being burned so badly by so-called allies has given me an overly cynical perspective here! : )

    But this aside...is there any penalty for the PLAYER to backstab, and declare was on an ally?

    Sire de Coucy

  16. #16
    Member Member Bilbo of Bag End's Avatar
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    Only penalty I have discovered on the surface is usually that of the Popes wrath. I am the Brits. It seems whenever another Christian nation and ally attacks me, I am warned by the Pope for my usual tactic of beating them back into their own lands as far as I can drive them.

    I cannot wait until I share a border with the Papacy. They are going down hard.


  17. #17
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    I believe, but am not positive, that your king loses some of his influence rating when you initiate an attack on a faction you are allied with.

    ------------------
    Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  18. #18

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    Best way to keep allies and neutrals in line is to maintain a high influence. Nuff said.

  19. #19
    Member Member EGr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ToranagaSama:
    Sometimes, an ally will join you in battle. This doesn't happen too often. When it does keep in mind that if your alliance wins the battle, the province will go to the faction with the largest army. Not sure if that's the largest army "prior" to the battle or after the battle is over. This is mentioned in the manual.[/QUOTE]

    im pretty sure it is starting army here because playing as the Italians i invaded a Swiss territory with 2000 men while the French (my allies) made the same move with 3000 men. I let the AI duke it out until it got old watching bad tactics and i mopped up the Swiss. The french lost more than 1,000 troops but still got the territory.

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    [This message has been edited by Elite Guard (edited 10-10-2002).]

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