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I found the "Imam recall" interesting. I wonder what the implications will be on a wider scale? Saudi Arabia is certainly capable of exerting it's influence to other nations.
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I found the "Imam recall" interesting. I wonder what the implications will be on a wider scale? Saudi Arabia is certainly capable of exerting it's influence to other nations.
Any thoughts on this?
Good news for us, but it will probably just inflame anti-government sentiment there.
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The Saudi's have shown themselves capable of staying in power, however, so will that really be a problem?
Don't trust 'em, 'nuf said.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
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Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
What do you mean by support? Saudi Arabia is hardly strapped for cash.Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.
I don't think it'll have any sort of drastic effect. You can't just 'retrain' people and tell them that they should now stop believing in something, moreso in religious matters, which tend to be held with more conviction than ordinary matters. But I guess it's a step in the right direction-- at least the government has made official gestures towards moderation.
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If people are willing, I think it can work. My priest from a long time ago used to be a real fire and brimstone ranter, he went away to train/learn/whatever, and came back still pretty extreme, but certainly less than before, and his sermons were much more bearable.
Saudis are worried that clerics are slipping out of their control, that's all. Muslim extremism, alongside oil, is still their primary export product and I'd be very, very surprised if they attempt serious reforms in that area.
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Hah! They've been funding it for the past 20 years.
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Money means nothing if you can't spend it on anything. We provide them with a great deal of support.Originally Posted by Myrddraal
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
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Equally, you could say support means nothing without people with cash to buy it...Originally Posted by Vladimir
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Well, this is Saudi Arabia. I don't think they'll have much trouble bringing in the executioner if necessary. How they would charge the individual would be interesting, but I'm sure they could think of something.Originally Posted by Quirinus
Throwing all political correctness aside, I'm of the opinion that if we can make Islam as a whole at least as moderate as Christianity or Judaism are as a whole, it's a good thing.
Is it possible to get more extreme than the saudi royal family...?
Or did you mean "evil terrorist" when you said "extremist"?
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It'd be interesting to see the international community's reaction to that. I wonder what those people who condemned Muslims wanting to execute Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists would make of it.Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I don't think executing them would be an answer, though-- it'd only make the clerics into martyrs and turn Muslim opinion against the Saudi government.
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I can imagine the protest solgans now...Originally Posted by Quirinus
Death to the King!
Burn the Shahadah!*
Raze Mecca to the ground!
Ah, protestors...really.
*The inscription upon the Saudi flag.
A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.
Considering that its likely that the belief held back when that book was written was that there was only one true god, it would be the same, wouldn't it?Originally Posted by Fahad I
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Not really, that's one of the common misconceptions people tend to think about Islam. The fact is that Allah is god, and the two other religions (Christianity and Judaism) are considered to be the origins of the Quran. It's just that Muslims believe that Jesus was a messenger/prophet, we don't call Jews or Christians non-believers.Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Perhaps I'm just confirming my common misconception here, but I thought Muslims distinguished themselves from others by accepting Allah as the only God, and also accepting that Mohammed is his Prophet, thus excluding other faiths of the book.Originally Posted by Fahad I
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
I don't think I've made it clear enough. Allah is the same god that Jews worship, I can't say it's the same god that Christians worship because I don't know whether Christians consider Jesus is god himself or the son of god. The Quran still holds Moses, Jesus, Abraham, etc. in high regard, we consider them the ones who paved the way, which basically means that the Bible and Torah are the origins of the Quran.Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Anyway, on topic, crazy extremists take it out of context and decide to go back to the middle ages and perform Jihad, on an unnecessary cause.
Last edited by Paradox; 03-24-2008 at 18:33.
Well these same extremists are treated with the utmost respect don't count on us here we are in a permanent state of stockholm syndrome
Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2008 at 18:47.
I don't think I made myself clear enough. I thought that there were two foundations defining Muslims:Originally Posted by Fahad I
1. There is no God but God.
2. Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
The point first non-Muslims can adhere to, though indeed there has been the matter of the perceived idolatry of Christ. But certainly earlier prophets are held in high esteem. The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
Last edited by Geoffrey S; 03-24-2008 at 20:07.
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Like that is any better.Originally Posted by Fahad I
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If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.Originally Posted by Viking
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Kind of both. Jesus is God's son, but Jesus is also part of the Holy Trinity, making Jesus both the Son of God and God the Son.Originally Posted by Fahad I
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 03-24-2008 at 20:46.
That's a little hard to understand, are you saying that we respect these maniacs?Originally Posted by Fragony
And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.1. There is no God but God.
A prophet of god.2.Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
How is that? I'm curious.If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.
I believe he's saying that his people (the Dutch) do.Originally Posted by Fahad I
Geoffrey's asking a question I've had for some time as well. Isn't a belief that Mohammed was God's prophet, in fact God's greatest prophet, necessary for being a good muslim? Doesn't Islam call for the conversion of people not just to a belief in God, but to a belief in Mohammed? In the interest of full disclosure, yes, of course, Christianity does hold a similar requirement. It's not enough to believe in Yaweh (which would make you Jewish), but that the Messiah of the prophesies has come, and His name was Jesus Christ.And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.
A prophet of god.
Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?
How is that? I'm curious.
*Not trying to straw-man you. As a Roman Catholic that resents being told he's either a cannibal or deluded, I understand there may be some nuances of your belief system that are lost on me.
Also, another question I have about Islam (or Judiasm, for that matter...) Okay, you don't accept that Jesus the Christ was the Messiah. Do you believe one will come? In light of Yaweh of the Old Testament's frequent statements that the Law can only guide man, it cannot justify man to God again, how is it that Muslims believe they can ascend to heaven? And to my Jewish friends out there... what is your concept of the afterlife, in light of the broken relationship issue?
Last edited by Don Corleone; 03-24-2008 at 21:25.
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