swisspikemen vs serant milita

[TheViking]

Im not a newbie, Im an "old" vet in STW and MI and know how to handle units. I just played an ugly battle on hard, SP.

My army:
8 swisspikemen
4 arbs
2 arqu
2 chiv. knights

Enemy army:
spearmen
archers
crossbowmen
1 ballista
militia sergants
urban militia
The 2nd type of spearmen (dont know their name)
mounted sergants
royalknights

I had superior units. I had more tech-upgrades, weapon and armour upgrades, more valour and a better general pluz I defended on a hill.

The enemy were twice as many then me, but b4 the second wave of enemy came I had routed.

This was my setup:
2 pikemen on each side as flankdefens
4 pikemen in front to hold charging enemy
the shooters I had in 2 columns 3 rows, the arqs were the first row.

The shooters shot down all incoming cav so they routed. But the spearmen kept on comming. so I charged with my 4 front pikes the spears. The fight took long time. I saw this milita sergant flanking my unit so I send down one of the rite flank units to intercept (or how u spell it) but that unit beat my pikes. I succeded to rout the enemy anyway. And when I looked at my pikes (5 units) they all had below 40 men in each. The spearmen and urbans and the milita serg. beat all my men b4 they routed. I send my cav after the enemy 1 of my cav got stopped by archers and crossbowmen. and the other was stopped by mounted sergants. My cav should have run over the archers and crossbowmen easily. And the other should have smacked the mounted serg.

I regrouped on my hill and it started to rain. Then the 2nd attack in the first wave came. It was only units with few men in. I send down my 2 fresh unit of pikes from the left flank (didnt use them in the first attack. The other pikes i placed infront of my shooters. the arqs were useless now but i kept them where they were. The enemy litteraly ran thru my fresh pikes making them rout which become a chainrout and I lost.

The only real fight I could c was the one between my pike vs a militia sergeant the rest of the fights were a mess couldnt c which unit fighing each other.
B4 the MS routed they killed 68 of the pikes and only lost 27. How could that b???

I killed 967 men and lost 824.

Now I wonder how my high tech-more valour-better weapon-better armour men-with a better general could lose like that???

Anyone with a good anser???

I know that the enemy didnt have more then 2 in valour on the units with most valour and that they didnt have any weapon and armour upgrades cuz i had spies in the territorys.

Thanks for any help

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[This message has been edited by TheViking (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Jo_Beare]

The computer cheats.

I had something similiar happen to me. I was defending against the Almohads. I picked off the enemy general early in the battle with a demi-culvern shot and my general was a 7 or 8 on command. I'm thinking that I am just going paste these guys AUM or not. They advanced straight up a hill under a hail of shot and arrows against my veteran halberdiers. They absolutely would not break and finaly my halberdiers broke sending my army flying off the hill. My reserves made a stand and pushed the Almohads back who were unable to mount an effective attack although I couldn't defeat them either. I held out until time expired.

I still can't figure out how one of best generals almost lost to an inferior army without a general.

I do think that a veteran army that have had a fair amount of success early on are lot tougher to kill than green troops no matter what the upgrades.

JoBeare

[Grifman]

I'm sorry but your description of the battle is a bit confusing. However, you don't say what the vices & virtues of your general were. Lastly, it looks like your army routed because you lost too many men - they will route if casualties are excessive. If the enemy outnumbers you by twice as much, and you lose almost as many as they do, that means you didn't have very many troops at the end relatively speaking. So they routed. Sorry, I can't say more because your description of the battle seems to contradict itself in several places so I can't really tell what happened.

Grifman

[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 10-10-2002).]

[maroule]

I'd agree with Grif and for the rout would look to V&V

amazing what a 'coward' or 'retreats often' can do to your tech up troops.

otherwise, pikes are good against cavalery and suffer greatly against infantry, as militia sergents, so I'm not surprised there either.

You should rejoice you got beat : it will make your revenge sweeter. Having a grudge on one faction (because they killed your beloved general, or beat you the way you just described) just adds flavour to the game.

[theBlind]

Quote Originally posted by Jo_Beare:

I had something similiar happen to me. I was defending against the Almohads.
[/QUOTE]
I know your pain, believe me


Quote Originally posted by Jo_Beare:

I'm thinking that I am just going paste these guys AUM or not.
I still can't figure out how one of best generals almost lost to an inferior army without a general.
[/QUOTE]
And thats where you are wrong. Right now, AUM and weak are VERY diametral phrases Ask my Byz troops. They´ll tell you all about it. Or lead you to a chopped down comrac how will...

theBlind

[pdoan8]

Swiss Armour Pikemen are armoured, defensive troops. They won't kill much in hold formation, and they got killed faster in engage at will but they can't kill as fast as they die. They don't have shield like other spear units. They are best at either charge (high charge bonus) or hold the ground to recieve rank bonus.

Militia Sergeant/Urban Militia: melee troop. They have anti-armour capability. They fight well in engage at will mode. One on one, they can kill lots of your SAP. They can even rout your SAP if they can inflict enough casualties on your SAP.

As we all know since STW, cavalry can't brake formation. They can't even charge through a thin line of archers. With armour, shield,... cavalry become less of a killing machine as they were in STW.

BTW, you didn't mention about the enemy ballista. Was it in range and shooting at your troops? How about the enemy missiles? Crossbow have AP capability and their ROF is faster than Arbalest. They could contribute to the killing of your SAP.

Also, how many enemy units were in the messy melee? In a messy melee, your troops could get morale penalty because there were too many enemy around.

Also, as mentioned in the above post, general V&V. Not just the commander, the leader of each individual unit too.

And if it was on hard or expert, AI could have cheated a little.

[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 10-10-2002).]

[barocca]

always always always press F1 before you engage in battle - morale values will shock you sometimes.
individual commanders V&V seems to have an effect.
Also a hidden V&V may exist which will show up in troop morale values in F1.

[TheViking]

I try to explain the battle in short terms for u who didnt understood me. Sorry for my lack in english.

The enemy ballista were to far away to shoot on my troops. It started to shoot on my cav when they followed the routed enemy.

The beginning, first wave first attack:

Enemy cav are shoot down and routing.

I charge my 5 of my pikes into spear units and other trash units (about 5-6 units all together)

The enemy routs after trashing my pikes.

My cav follow the routers and being killed by archers and crossbowmen (2 units together) and 1 mounted sergants.

My other men I regrouped on the hill I was defending.

Still first enemy wave but their 2nd attack:

With my cavs crushed the enemys leftovers from the first attack with the mounted serg.. as reinforce they finished of the rest of my army.

I dont know how it was the V&V but i dont think they were bad cuz my 5 star general had 8 in valour. If that means anything???

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[This message has been edited by TheViking (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Daevyll]

I had a similar experience, and when I checked the army I fought against I spotted that several of their unitcommanders as well as their general (whio was only Rank 2) had a very high Dread rating.

I think it was that more than anything hich cause my army to rout.

Conversely, I have a general now in a nother campaign that has a dread rating that is simply off the scale, and whenever he charges a unit they almost break immediately. It's almost cheating.

[maroule]

"I dont know how it was the V&V but i dont think they were bad cuz my 5 star general had 8 in valour. If that means anything???"

no relation, he can have a virtue boosting the value of his unit, and at the same time a vice affecting the morale of all of the units

I agree with Barocca, press F1, you'll get surprised at times (like seeing a lot of -4 to -6 for your teched up army and nice 5 stars general, as it did to me yesterday night)

[BigHairyDeal]

Lo, there do I see my father.
Lo, there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers.
Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take place among them in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

[barocca]

Quote Originally posted by Daevyll:
Conversely, I have a general now in another campaign that has a dread rating that is simply off the scale, and whenever he charges a unit they almost break immediately. It's almost cheating.[/QUOTE]

almost, but not quite

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(G'Day BHD)

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

It's a nuisance when a province you really need to keep or to take is lost because of such V&V occurances....


(G'Day fella's - what are are we all doing awake this time of night? - ICQ!!)

====
There is always hope. Only because it's the one thing that no one has figured out how to kill yet.

[DojoRat]

Viking
I know you don't often get to choose the make up of your defensive army but it sounds like it lacked offensive punch. 8 Swiss Pikes are a lot as are 6 missle units IMHO. Switch your two flank pikemen for some high attack Inf and one of your missles for some light cav. If you can build Jinnets so much the better.

Then, put your pikes on hold, pick a corner of his line, and send your Inf around the flank while your Jinnets go over the top of your pikes. Unless the V&V's are really stacked against you this guy should break fast and then you can roll up the rest of his line.

Then send your pikes on a limited attack, with heavy and light cav, but if their second wave is coming pull back up the hill and let the dummies do it to themselves all over again.

But given your army's make up I might have tried to bring some of the arbs out to the side to get a flank shot on their line while your pikes held. You could cover them with your cav or those pikes on the flank. It's risky, and longbows with their higher ROF are better for this, but it's worth a shot.



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He moves, you move first.

[TheViking]

Those were the only units I had in the territory. Not much to do about that rite.

But Ive seen the swisspikemen beat almost everything the enemy have launched at me, specially the low tech units. And I was still on the hill till the enemy got very close then I charged downhill and lost anyway.

Well its nice to see the a.i. surprise u in this way sometime. Its just disturbing that I lost that battle cuz it was a key-territory. Now the a.i. are terrorising the heart of my land.

If it would have bn a battle that wouldnt have mattered that much I wouldnt bn botherd to take it up here.

All I wanted was some ansers and I got it thank u all for ur effort.

Vik

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[Grifman]

Reading your second explanation it appears to me that my first guess was correct - you took too heavy losses and that is why your men routed. You used pikemen in an offensive style when they are better suited to defense - especially since you didn't have SAPs, which have better offense. Hence you took too many losses with your pikemen which lead to the routing. I also suspect that in your counterattack with your two fresh pikes that they were unsupported which caused a morale hit, helping to lead to their route. As others have pointed out your force was not balanced. You needed to trade in 2-4 pikes for some men-at-arms or some such shock infantry for some offensive punch - this is what you seemed to have lacked.

Grifman