Sad thing about this imbalance debate

[anymapkoku]

The sad thing is that spears actually aren't as great as people make them out to be. People find this game boring because of rush armies, yet rush armies are weak. People find this game boring because spears are dominant, and because fmaa are to good for the cost, yet that is a contradiction. People find it boring because cav aren't as good as they should be, yet cav have their uses. People are tired of the rush fests, and wish that ranged units were more important, yet ranged units are critical for beating spear armies on agincourt. People think that spear armies are too good and need to be toned down, and therefore refuse to use a lot fo spears because it's abusing them, yet this stifles the evolution of mtw, so that a counter to spear armies will be delayed. People complain about spears and beg for a patch, rather than finding the counter.
The counter to 4 ital inf, 4 order, 4 fmaa, and 4 chiv seargeants, on agincourt/5k-10k(and probably other florins too), is to get no spears at all and some ranged. If you get 5 fmaa, some other non spear units, and some ranged, and no cav, you will win about 95% of the time (if both palyers are equal/high skill), losing only when you are outgunned or he takes less spears. Yes you heard right, the only way this loses is if he does the unthinkable: bring ranged units and/or gets less spears. But I thought ranged was bad and spears were too good? Little do you know. People may never know in time if the patch changes things drastically
--reaverlisk

[Alrowan]

well the evolution is already happening, and personally i can wait for the patch, as it will make ranged units even more powerful... im not a whinger, in fact ive seen the evolution of the multiplayer style. Some might not know it, but there are players out there taking risks with thier armies, and developing new strategies, in fact, a friend and I the other night in a 4vs4 battle picked missle based armies, while our allies chose mixed armies, well after fighting as a team, we completely routed our enemies, and i have a replay to show it

It just goes to show your point is right, the game is not stagnant, people are just lazy

[JRock]

Well there's really no point in actually discussing problems with units since Gil isn't going to read them anyway, right?

I mean archers are UNBELIEVABLY weak. There's no excuse for a 60man unit of Nizaris shooting wave after wave of arrows into a standing 100man unit of Order Foot standing in a close square formation and not even killing A SINGLE ONE for several volleys in a row. Ridiculous. Unacceptable. Proof that archers are nerfed in this game. Nothing more really to say about that, and apparently CA has no interest in fixing it.

That is why my opinion is that we should just accept what we are given and play the game not based on reality but on what is available to us in the game.

[FacelessClock]

I don't know how you expect to win with that army, anymapkoku. No spears is going to equal no rough tough 100 man units to form your line of engagement.

The only way to win there is if your enemy plays wide line rather then sends in units as in waves. And what if the enemy has calv. You are screwed, so utterly.

[Grifman]

Byzantine infantry aren't spears and are 100 men.

Grifman

[anymapkoku]

Faceless, this just goes to show how little you know about the game, map strategy, etc. But I don't expect you to take my word for it, I'm more than willing to backup my claims vs any good players like yourself who feel that spears need to be toned down. While I admit my strategy won't work on every map, there are many maps it will absolutely destroy spears on. Agincourt is one of them(one of hundreds), and that's a fairly standard map which is common, as well as 5k-10k being standard too. Of course my army has counters, we'll assume cav counters it as you say it does, but the point I'm making is that spear armies are not all that like people seem to think they are. And most people complaining about imbalance and demanding a patch believe cav are weak. The assumption that cav can beat my army,which beats spear armies, which beat cav armies, shows balance in my eyes.
I can understand archers being more effective though, but pavise units are fine in their current states.

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 10-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 10-11-2002).]