Unlimited ammo: good idea or not?

[econ21]

It never occurred to me to play SP MTW with unlimited ammo until I read the web-link posted by Grifman in one of the cavalry threads: http://www.sca.org.nz/collegium/uni36/medieval_war.php
Talking of the importance of logistics, it says an archer would be pretty useless if he only had the arrows he carried. As a MTW player, that struck a certain bell. Then it reported an estimate that 500000 arrows were fired at Crecy.
Another source says that there were 7000 British archers, each carrying 48 arrows with "Resupply was accomplished by going back thru the lines or having more brought forward". http://www.archeryweb.com/archery/crecy.htm
I feel that the rate at which ammo is depleted in MTW battles is rather high (especially for longbow men), especially when the battle is a large one - with the AI bringing on more reinforcements.
I am not sure how unbalancing unlimited arrows would be. I guess it favours the human, but it does not seem very realistic that archers must spend half of the battle twiddling their thumbs due to a lack of ammo. Nor does it feel right that one must conserve longbows for particularly high value targets.
I never felt this to be a problem in Shogun, perhaps because archers seemed more powerful there anyway and ammo depletion seemed more modest.
Anyone tried the unlimited ammo option and can report how it plays?
Anyone know more medieval history and can tell when a lack of arrows was a real factor in a battle? (In medieval battles, not only were there supply wagons - archers would often reclaim arrows from the field in lulls in the battle). Shortage of ammunition has not figured in accounts of battles in any period I have read except where one side was isolated from resupply (eg the KGL at La Haye Sainte) or the ammo is very special (eg Argentinian Exocets).
Right now I am inclined to switch to unlimited ammo although I confess I am playing the English :=)

[Sjakihata]

I guess if you think it would be more realistic you should use it, it sound reasonable to, that the archer could resupply. But then again, if an archer could resupply, where are the rest of the logistics in the game??
I think we have to face that MTW, is merely on tactics, not longtermed strategy and supply lines.
Another note on unlimted ammo; do not use that in MP, as the games will further unbalanced I think... so I would suggest only in SP, not MP...

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*bows* - Power to the Sultan!

Clan Seljuk

[CBR]

Well dont think unlimited ammo in MP will be a bad idea.It doesnt happen often that I run out of ammo BUT it might make cannons way too good.

CBR

[Alrowan]

or why not have them make a resuply cart unit in the game

[Protoman]

I found unlimited ammo to be no big deal for archers. In fact, archers are so underpowered that they deserve it.

The one thing that unlimited ammo does effect is ARTILLERY, especially guns.

Unlimited ammo for guns allows you to level an entire castle and kill off a chunk of the army before mopping up.

Against a defensive AI you can pound them forever because they refuse to attack your position.


The only limiting factor with unlimited ammo on is TIME. Sure you can eventually blow apart a force with some cannons, but it would take hours to do it.

MULTIPLAYER is different though. When facing multiple enemies unlimited ammo is the only fair option.

[Protoman]

Cannons are very effective against defensive players who refuse to move from their spot. Fitting because that is historically what they were made for (Ie. static lines of pikemen, archers, or castles).


Unlimited ammo is only overpowered when attacking castles IMO because it's difficult for the enemy to launch an assault and your cannons can reduce the entire place to rubble easily.

But in a open 1vs1 or 2vs2 battles? Not overpowered at all.

Good players know to rush and flank the cannons. Many players panic and try to run out of the cannons range, or spread out their ranks and hope you run out of ammo.

I would recommend unlimited ammo for MP games but not SP.

[econ21]

Protoman, when you say:
"Against a defensive AI you can pound them forever because they refuse to attack your position."
are you referring to castle/gun fights only?

I generally find the AI in normal battles does not sit still if you have a superiority in archery. It either heads for trees or attacks. If you could just endlessly shoot a stationary AI from a distance then that would make the SP game unbalanced and dull. I'd been thinking more from a defensive perspective (yes, I am not the greatest MTW player!) but had not thought about the offensive implications.

I wonder - what about turning unlimited ammo off when you attack and on otherwise?

Actually, I am not that bothered by it anyway except with the longbowmen and admit it would probably be a little unbalancing if historial to give them - which only I as the English can have - unlimited ammo. Maybe I'll try it and see. I imagine it would at least double the value of my longbowmen, so that instead of being the equivalent of high velocity anti-tank guns (like 88s) they become general purpose death-dealers.

[Sainika]

I never play with unlimited ammo. It is not realistic at all! But I admit that archers must replenish ammo 2-3 times. THAT would be much more realistic because every army had a supply vagon. But Unlimited ammo option makes English and some muslim factions extremely strong and it inbalances the whole game.

[Protoman]

Quote I generally find the AI in normal battles does not sit still if you have a superiority in archery. It either heads for trees or attacks. [/QUOTE]

I was talking about cannons and artillery, archery is different because it's much closer.

[Tedos]

I doubled my Archers ammunition from 28 to 56 in crusaders_unit_prod11.txt and it works great. They can fire a lot longer and are a real help on the battlefield. My most used defensive tactic is 8 Archers, 6 Spearmen and 2 cavalery units. The Archers in two colums of 4 units each, the spearmen placed as an U and the cavalery on the flanks. everybody in hold possition and formation and possitioned on the edge of the map and the enemy will melt away from the volleys of arrows.

[Protoman]

Quote Originally posted by Sainika:
I never play with unlimited ammo. It is not realistic at all! But I admit that archers must replenish ammo 2-3 times. THAT would be much more realistic because every army had a supply vagon. But Unlimited ammo option makes English and some muslim factions extremely strong and it inbalances the whole game.[/QUOTE]

Remember I said I use it for MP but not SP?

Not only are missle units less useful in MP, but you are often facing off against multplie enemies in much larger battles.

Anyway, even without unlimited ammo I would like to see archers get three times as much ammo because we can't simulate supply lines.