King Richard I when he invaded Palestine seemed to have a historical invincibility rating. His knights were well armored and the Muslims swords and arrows at the time couldn't penetrate their armor.
King Richard I when he invaded Palestine seemed to have a historical invincibility rating. His knights were well armored and the Muslims swords and arrows at the time couldn't penetrate their armor.
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The more the words, the less the meaning and how does that benefit anyone? BIBLE: Ecclesiates 6:11
The 'spears to hold them, attack unit to kill them' has workred fairly well for me, also i've found missles to be quite a good counter against these lone horsemen.
IMHO it doesnt need too much tweaking, the situation just needs to be dealt with correctly (as with many other aspects of the game).
Also, i agree that if royals get too easy to kill, there will inevitably be a lot of complaints about it. Either as a result of people loosing their kick-arse leaders, or from people who hold their leaders safely back and start to pick up vices cos of it.
i don't care how thick the armor is. Armor isn't perfect and has slight flaws that can be taken advantage of.
Then there is also the less armored bigger target horse to go after.
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"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
Of course the weight of 200 men would subdue and kill a single man... But this is a game and there are certain limitations in the engine which make it function better overall.
As many have pointed out, you can address the problem by keeping the murderous general at bay with spear units and ramming him from the flank/rear with a good attacking unit of your own; this will rout and/or capture/kill him.
Some things of interest on heavily armored medieval warriors, and from what I've read they were quite difficult to kill and sometimes this wasn't even wanted to happen: For example the Turks used to have nets and bolas to catch Knights Tempar and their kin in the coasts and seas of the Holy Land; They had to take their legs out from under them, and when the armored fighter was on the ground they used hammers on the helmets and long knives on the armor joints and eye holes to eventually subdue, wound and finally kill them. One on one (or four), swinging an axe or a scimitar against a heavy european sword and mail, a Moslem fighter was at a serious risk of injury or severe trauma resulting in death. The ever revolting peasantry of Europe also suffered greatly with their pitchforks and leather vests, and it appears they hardly got the hang of disposing the armored baronial forces during the time compassing MTW.
Also, in Medieval battles generals, princes and kings were usually taken alive rather than dead. Soldiers went to great lenghts to capture them alive for the huge ransom. A clumsy warrior killing an important person could draw the wrath of his commander quite easily! Moslems, on the other hand, liked to execute the infidels. They were rich anyway...
At least I would like to execute my crazy Danish Royal Knights (whom I use in my current campaing to dispose of the killer generals) more then often since they end up killing enemy leadiers too regularly. I need the damn ransom money, not heads for display.
Anyway, I enjoyed the serial killer immortal generals more in STW; the idea of a master No-Dachi general holding a fort alone versus my rushing army is more in the spirit of the Japanese warrior legend.
Also during the battle of Agincourt, the English foot soldiers had to drive daggers into the eyeholes of the french knights´helms once they were unhorsed, they were also dispatched by stabbing the armpits, groins and the neck juncture and were left to bleed to death, of course there is also the all time popular way of hammering the helmet to licence plate thickness while the owner´s head was still inside.
There is one thing I miss here.. The KINGS may be a tad intimidating and well armored and all that..
But..
if you charge a lone horse with barding using over 100 men with, say, very long & sharp spears.. none of them get through and disable the HORSE??? Sticking a few UNDER the barding is a possibility taht OCCURS when you use over 100 men trust me. Nothing said about that yet! The point here is that the HORSE is actually the weak point of the king, not the king's fighting prowess or armor! Dismount the bastard and he'll have a DAMN hard time defending against over 100 men!! Make the horse more realistic. They're mortal and DO have a will of their own (such as throwing their rider off and speeding from a scene at a certain point, though that would take some drastic reprogramming and a new set of animations I suppose - but I think my point is clear)!!!
Has anyone considered THIS yet???
I have once trap a lone retreating general with 1 unit of 53 hobblier and 2 unit of 20 royal knight with one of them my own 6 stars general. The enemy general is fully surround and trap between the whole mass of my cav. All these cav is my veteran troop with valor 3+ and high morale.
The end result? The enemy general kill 23 of my hobblier and 5 of my royal knight while he kill thru a path out of my mass of cav surrounding him to retreat at the edge of map. grrrrr
1)What is a King with no kingdom?
2)How can a man stand with no legs?
3)If Pluto was a dog what was Goofy?
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1) Remove his lands remove his people..remove him
2) Chop Chop......off with his head (legs?)
3) Havent a clue...Goofy had clothes..but he sure looked like a dog to me...why couldnt Pluto walk on 2 legs and drive a car then?
This might be a little OT, but I bagged the Pope with a bunch of peasants. The peasants were charging down a hill in the wedge formation. The pope had just routed and was trying to run up hill when the peasants hit him and that was all there was to it.
Too bad I didn't get any ransom money for that one.
JoBeare
Sheeesh, what's the problem???
Unless, your using cheesy tactics, like lets go kill the King and watch his troops rout! rather than legitmate tactics to defeat his army, its quite simple.
A single armoured unit of Spears, Wedge formation and Hold Formation, is all it takes. Have em attack the King, THEN simply forget about him. The King will get stuck attempting to fend off the spears and will be of little help to his troops.
Go about your business of defeating his army. At some point during the midst of all that you'll get the message that the enemy King is dead. If you've put up a good fight, his troops will rout. End Story!
The spears s/b honor 2 or above. It's what I do, it works. The King wants to charge my troops...GOOD...here's a unit of spears, leave me alone.
In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
For valor is a gift And those who posses it
Never know for certain They will have it
When the next test comes....
The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
Graphics files and Text files
Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.
This is being addressed in the patch - no godlike near invincible kings anymore - but on the other side, the AI will also take better care of its kings/generals on the battlefield.
Grifman
What's cheesy about "let's go kill the King??
A very historical practice often commented on - indeed the original Kataphractoi were usually aimed directly at the opposing CinC and let go!!
Quote Originally posted by Hakonarson:
What's cheesy about "let's go kill the King??
A very historical practice often commented on - indeed the original Kataphractoi were usually aimed directly at the opposing CinC and let go!![/QUOTE]
Oh boy! "Simplistic", then?
1. Chessy: Any tactic which takes advantage of tactics to which the AI is not capable is CHEESY! The defining question should ALWAYS be: Does the AI do it?
2. I don't believe the AI targets the opposing King anywhere near the degree to which some folks have described that they do.
3. What is the purpose of "single-mindedly" attacking the King? Simply to kill the King thereby causing a mass rout. The "mass" rout caused not by superior tactics and/or execution, nor the "bravery and valour" of your troops, BUT a simple EXPLOITATION of the 'software' code.
4. Cheesy, 2nd def., ALL "exploitations" of software code quirks are CHEESY!
ToranagaSama, says: "Play The Game The Way It Was Designed To Be Played"!
In relation to your "historical" point. Yes, it was an "element" of war, but not the focal point. The Devs have coded this in, but OBVIOUSLY, the code's not perfect. How so? Simple, the code that triggers "mass rout" once the King is killed works to a GREATER effect than the code designed to "specifically" defend against such an attack. Such "defense" code doesn't appear to exist and is needed for proper "balance".
Unfortunately, coding games is not a perfect science. Taking advantage of these "quirks" is of limited challenge.
Maybe CA s/h called their creation "Kill The King" rather than Total War.
Using boxing as an analogy. Are you familiar with the term "headhunter". It's a fighter who consistently aims his blows to the head, seeking to "knock-out" his opponent. The strategy will fail for most all boxers, UNLESS they happen to be Mike Tyson in his prime. Now, how many Mike Tyson's have there been. Quite few. The boxing mantra is, Kill the "Body", and Then The Head.
In C-MP, the attack-the-king tactic would be a loser, as a decent Human player would easily guard/defend against it.
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"Our strategy for going after this army is very, very, simple.
First we are going to cut it off, then we are going to kill it."
Gen. Colin Powell,
Chairman Joint Chief of Staff, USA
(Outlining Gulfwar Strategy)
[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-10-2002).]
In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
For valor is a gift And those who posses it
Never know for certain They will have it
When the next test comes....
The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
Graphics files and Text files
Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.
You know what I think? I think this thread won't die!
Heh... I surround the charging king with spearmen, and then have te archers rain arrow on the bugger. Yeah, gonna lose lots of my guys, so I only do this to kill a rabid, raving lunatic King. Turn him into a picushion. Of course, crossbow does a better job of it then, let's say longbow... cause longbows would kill too many of the spearmen.
one time i was invading HRE with my king it became king versus king! both had lost all their bodyguards. it was a great duel, i eventually won.
I AM A MIGHTY TRADER AND WARRIOR!!
My Danish King with Famous warrior (+20 health) and 6 stars was quite the super hero. I wanted to see how long he'd last alone against an army, so I saved and attacked the spanish.
1 king vs 200 or so FMAA, 120 archers, 300 spearmen, 40 cavalry of some sort (can't remember what they were).
Super hero King Knud attacks... kills 160 or so FMAA, they rout.. turns attention to the archers, kills about 40 and they rout, attacked the cavalry poking me in the back - killed 10 and they rout.. turned on spearmen and killed about 40 or so and they rout... it took about an hour (timer off) but I totally crushed them with 1 king (all his bodyguards died in around 1 minute into fight).
Very funny.. but glad it's being changed in patch.
I´m as glad as the next guy that generals and kings will be knocked down from mount Olympus and become more vulnerable in battle.
And I agree that if you kill the king/commander the whole army routs, is a little extreme. I know I have read about engagements where the commander of an army is disabled or killed but the army doesn´t run and even rallies around a corageous leutenant. Take the siege of Malta for example. Dargaut (spl?) the legendary Ottoman CiC of the imperial army is killed by shrapnel from a christian fort cannon, but the siege continued until the Knights of St. John received reinforcements and the siege was lifted.
Maybe the patch can deal with this, moving command to the next best general in case the commander is killed or captured, with the mandatory morale penalties that it should carry. Of course it would be logical imho that if the next general is a coward, it would be a race to the exit door for everyone.
Cheers!
Generals can be superhuman to. I had a 9 star general alone in a province that was attacked by the Spanish. First round this single man killed 35 of 40 attacking, next round 137 of 150 and killed 65 of 240 before he self got killed. What a superhero !!!
Last night I had a battle all but won when the Byzantine general single handedly routed my entire attacking force. I had a unit of Royal Knights and Feudal Knights pounding him against a wall of Feudal Sergeants. He whittled the cavalry down low enough to route them, the rest of the army saw that and booked it out of there. He killed over 3/4 of the three nearly full strength units that engaged him before routing them, completely wiping out the Royals as they were routing.
olaf
The kings are ridiculous at times. We shouldn't have to resort to such gamey tactics to accually bring them down.
I once had a kind surrounded by half a dozen units of archers, militia, and spearmen... And I almost LOST because he the superhuman king was hacking away almost all my forces to the point of rout!
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