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Thread: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

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    Default [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    This is the AAR thread for my EB 1.1 Romani game (H/M with rtw.exe). I had promised myself I'd wait a week or two for the bugs to show and fixes to come out, but when I got home the other day it had finished downloading. Thing is some of the fun went out of my 1.0 game when the Parthians died, meaning I could never have them a major power in the 1st century BC. And while I would like to get my mini-mod starting in 250BC going, that's not going to be a quick project.

    Besides which, if I'm honest I have a soft spot for Camillian troops who are kind of cool in their own way. I've discovered my new favourite allied troop as well in the Bruttian infantry.

    I'm playing to historical expansion and composition, as per my WIP guide

    We open in 270BC:



    The garrison of Taras sallied out to defeat, despite outnumbering the Roman forces at the tail end of 272BC, meaning it was taken in an appropriate year. That task done, 271 was spent making good two armies for the southern and northern pushes. Most important of all was to retake Rhegion and restore Roman honour by punishing the traitor.

    In the above I'd just taken Rhegion and the following turn, at the end of the winter of 270 Bononia's garrison sallied out and was handed a decisive pasting.

    Of note with the AI factions was Epeiros' brushing the Makedones aside to their capital and Demetrius. I wasn't too happy about that, especially as they seemed set to destroy Koinon Hellenon as well. Something I don't like are superpowers growing in my backyard.

    Fortunately Force Diplomacy and some creativity with the console arrested their behaviour. I lumped them with a 50k penalty to stop them recruiting, then took settlements off them. By 266BC they'd gone very quiet indeed:



    Then I turned my attentions to Pontos who rushed to an early lead in Asia Minor. Ideally I'd like their new settlements to go rebel again rather than go to any one faction. I've got my usual plan in store for Galatia - I'll gift it to the Arverni this time, though.

    I've been gifting money via the console to the Hai and Baktria. I did initially to Pahlava, but they seem to be doing just fine. The Getai are similarly sweeping their region while the three Hellenic factions beat seven shades out of each other.

    264BC:



    The First Punic War has begun, although the opening was a bit of a damp squib. A show of force by the Karthadastim, then they high-tailed it back to Lilibeo. I may have to resort to scripting some reinforcements for them, so we have an actual battle or three (how would I do that?).

    I'm also struggling financially a little, but that's because I have two full consular legions when I can only really support one. I only make a profit of around 1.5k a turn right now. Warring with my best trading partner hasn't helped matters, either.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-10-2008 at 00:30.

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    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    I think it would be better if you played alternate history instead of recreating it. So many Roman AARs go the strict route of trying to replicate history. I think its a shame that you abandoned your old AAR just because 1.1 is out. You put so much work into that one. I wish people wouldnt give up on their AARs so easily. Seems they really get going and suddenly Poof! they are dead. Sigh oh well I guess I am just venting. Carry on then!

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    As I've already said, I'm not interested in alternate history. That doesn't give me any kind of guide as to what I should be doing and I'd either spend a lot of time turtling and building myself up without acting, or rashly going out there and grabbing stuff. I only play EB because I want a historical simulation, and a chance to test out my house rules.

    The other AAR was always struggling to maintain my interest after Pahlava died, it was only then that I realised how important it is to keep an eye on the other factions from the very beginning, not just later on.

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    Member Member Banzai!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Dude! Give Pyrrhus his due and give him back his territories.

    If you want to stop him pwning the Macedonians fight him! Don't use Force Diplomacy.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzai!
    Dude! Give Pyrrhus his due and give him back his territories.

    If you want to stop him pwning the Macedonians fight him! Don't use Force Diplomacy.
    I'm not fighting the Epirotes now I've taken Taras, nor engaging in an ahistorical early war in Greece. I've got war with Qarthadast, that's more than enough to content with, without losing even more trade income.

    Besides which, all Makedonia were left with was Mytilene, and I didn't want them abandoning Greece and expanding out into Asia Minor.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-10-2008 at 11:21.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    261BC:



    Pontos is still expanding at an alarming rate, last turn they took Ankyra, which I gave to the Arverni via Force Dipliomacy. Nothing I have in the region can slow them down, my only spy just died trying to get into Nikaia. I've got two more on their way to try to foment some unrest and hopefully spark rebellions back to the Eleutheroi. If they take Tylis and I can't get it to revolt, I'll give it to Makedonia. What's most annoying is they're not even trying to take Sinope after failing the first time.

    I took Messana a couple of turns ago, now things in Sicily have gone a bit cold. Apparently in 257BC or so there's a coming of age in Lilibeo which makes them more aggressive, so I'll wait for that to get the hot war moving. Then once we've had a battle or two, I'll send that stack to Africa.

    I've been long-sieging Segesta, about to start again for the final time. Has had the side benefit of culling the Gaesatae who will make taking it hard.

    The taking of Messana has helped my economy a lot, now clearing around 4k in profit a year, which I've been putting to good effect building some farms and markets.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-10-2008 at 13:21.

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    Member Member STuNTz2023's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    nice job so far, trying to control AI expansion looks to be a real pain the ass tho. lol

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by STuNTz2023
    nice job so far, trying to control AI expansion looks to be a real pain the ass tho. lol
    Yep, he'd have had an easier time on Medium campaign difficulty instead of Hard for a purely historical game.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    259BC:



    My conquest of Italy is now done for a generation having taken Segesta and now holding all Italy south of the Padus.

    In the rest of the world, I had a brief scare thinking the Arverni would take Massilia, but it was an army led by a captain and they got mauled. Makedonia seem to have awoken, taking Serdike and now besieging a weakened Tylis. I can only hope they'll kick Pontos off the continent.

    Pahlava and Baktria are both growing at the expense of the Seleukids. The Hai are doing alright, I think they're just about to start trouble with the Sauromatae.

    Funny people mention the campaign difficulty, I haven't really found the AI lvel of aggressions towards itself any different in Medium, compared to Hard.

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    Member Member thelord's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    its impossible to border anyone and not have them attack you on anything higher than medium - unless you make them a protectorate.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by thelord
    its impossible to border anyone and not have them attack you on anything higher than medium - unless you make them a protectorate.
    I've had fairly lengthy peace with the Aedui in my other game. There was a brief bit of war, but after I destroyed a couple of stacks sent my way, they accepted a forced peace. I also destroyed their barracks in Mediolanium at the time, and later took it.

    Similarly the Arverni gave up after a while, although they were always sending spies and assassins to my settlements in Spain. Epeiros gave up on me after a few decades of having their armies trashed. I never went to war with the Getai, although they regularly pestered me for an alliance.

    All this said, I did start out using my diplomats to boost the finances of various factions, later switching to using the console. So perhaps this switched my relations into the heavily positive.

    In my current game I do have regular token tributes with some factions (Getai, Arverni and Lusotanii presently).

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    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
    As I've already said, I'm not interested in alternate history. That doesn't give me any kind of guide as to what I should be doing and I'd either spend a lot of time turtling and building myself up without acting, or rashly going out there and grabbing stuff. I only play EB because I want a historical simulation, and a chance to test out my house rules.

    The other AAR was always struggling to maintain my interest after Pahlava died, it was only then that I realised how important it is to keep an eye on the other factions from the very beginning, not just later on.
    The beauty of alternate history is that you are not chained to what actually happened. The AI does not follow history. You said you quit your last campaign because the Pahlava were killed off. That can happen in EB. Its what makes the game fascinating. The AI does not play by your rules which is why it is easier to adapt to the situations that you are presented with. One of the most enjoyable aspects of AARs is not knowing what is going to happen next. One of the most intense and long fought wars I ever did was when I was Rome and had to face the Macedonian Juggernaut that had taken over everything south of the Danube. It was amazing because I had to come up with tactics to beat them without Legionnaires. I think the AI will frustrate your efforts. Not only will you micromanage your own faction but you will have to do that for the other dozen factions as well. Just trying to save you a lot of trouble later on thats all.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chirurgeon
    The beauty of alternate history is that you are not chained to what actually happened. The AI does not follow history. You said you quit your last campaign because the Pahlava were killed off. That can happen in EB. Its what makes the game fascinating. The AI does not play by your rules which is why it is easier to adapt to the situations that you are presented with. One of the most enjoyable aspects of AARs is not knowing what is going to happen next. One of the most intense and long fought wars I ever did was when I was Rome and had to face the Macedonian Juggernaut that had taken over everything south of the Danube. It was amazing because I had to come up with tactics to beat them without Legionnaires. I think the AI will frustrate your efforts. Not only will you micromanage your own faction but you will have to do that for the other dozen factions as well. Just trying to save you a lot of trouble later on thats all.
    It makes the game a lot more interesting for me having to keep an eye on them. Just focusing on your own faction without a view to the balance of power elsewhere quickly turns into a rather boring game of queuing stuff with the occasional battle here and there.

    Furthermore, it gives your agents something meaningful to do. Diplomats, spies and assassins are all active parts of keeping the AI factions balanced, rather than just people you occasionally use for yourself.

    Plus it stops you rushing out there, which inevitably seems to be involved in people playing "alternate history". It wasn't actually that much trouble in the other game, and I've started earlier this time around.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    257BC:



    Just as someone said, in 259BC a Karthadastim family member came of age, and suddenly they became a lot more aggressive. I've been giving them money in the hopes they'll hire a fair few of the huge numbers of mercs washing around Sicily. I've been avoiding hiring any of them myself.

    There's a genuine stalemate in Libya between Seleukids and Ptolemies. Baktria are starting to get into their swing. Pahlava are giving the Seleukids a lot of trouble. Epeiros have fully gone to sleep, they're now a Makedonian protectorate and doing nothing. Koinon Hellenon keep attacking the Seleukids in Asia Minor after Halikarnassos rebelled to them.

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    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Well, I would certainly never be able to play a campaign like this, always interfering with the AI´s war, but it´s sure fun to read an AAR about it, so keep it up. I hope we get to see a big Imperium Romanum vs Parthian Empire war in a few hundred years. It´s good to see that the Pahlavans are doing something of their own in 1.1, and not just attacking the Saka´s.
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    254BC:



    Waiting and gifting of money (via console) seem to have stirred Qarthadast into action! They've now besieged Messana three times, I've got another attack to fend off here. You can't see them because they've just boarded ship, but I've got the Army of Sicily ready to sail to north Africa, which means the client ruler of Messana is on his own. That said he's proven quite capable and though he only has local levies to call upon, they are well-drilled enough.

    If anyone is wondering about how Saba ended up with a province in the north African desert, that's some capricious Force Diplomacy from me right there. Since the various kingdoms of Numidia, Mauretania and others don't exist, I figured something needed to prevent Karthadastim hegemony in Africa.

    I think Pahlava have over-extended themselves taking Susa, they've run out of steam.

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    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Good work. Though be careful the Pahlavans there, a huge Parthian Empire around 50BC might be nice, but you still want some Seleukids to fight in the Roman-Syrian war.
    The Appomination

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Appo
    Good work. Though be careful the Pahlavans there, a huge Parthian Empire around 50BC might be nice, but you still want some Seleukids to fight in the Roman-Syrian war.
    Indeed, that's why I've not given them any assistance since the first turn pretty much. It looks like they've over-extended themselves and the Seleukids are returning with a vengeance too.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Later in 254BC:



    I landed an army in Africa and took Adrumento, which was defended only by a single family member. Next port of call, Atiqa, assuming they can't scrap an army together for a battle.

    In Sicily they actually landed another family member and some proper reinforcements. Give them long enough and my army might have gotten back from it's raid (I don't plan to hold either settlement). Pirate sunk the transports, I'll have to raise some more; all the money from destroying their buildings helped lots.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    252BC:



    The proconsul Lucius Cornelius Scipio and his army, safely returned from the punitive expedition in Africa. You can see the very tip is red where Atiqa was raided, I expect it to be retaken given I left nothing there.

    Once more, the Karthadastim have besieged Messana, the client ruler there is turning into quite an adept general handling these sieges. He always sallies out immediately, and occasionally they stick around to fight. There's loads of mercenaries on the island, but even though I've been giving them 5k a turn they don't seem to be hiring many (do I need to be giving them more?). Hopefully now they can't recruit troops in Adrumento or Atiqa they might do something about that. Either way I have no intention of taking Lilibeo for ages yet. An unintended side-effect of my raid is that it seems to have stalled their westward expansion on the African coast, which is cool.

    As for the rest of the world, some cheeky Force Diplomacy relieved Pontos of Byzantion and Ipsos, they're expanding too fast for my liking and just failed to take Sinope again.

    There's a stalemate in Greece between Makedonia and Koinon Hellenon. Epeiros are still doing nothing at all, they now have two full stacks sitting doing nothing.

    I may have to do something about the Getai eventually, they're not really hassling Makedonia enough and are haring off north.

    The Sweboz are doing some serious expanding, fortunately the guard stack has appeared in Noricum in case they get any ideas about attacking my northern border.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    251BC:



    I'm quite pleased with myself, because my plan has paid off. I've been gifting the Karthadastim 5-10k a turn in the hopes they'd buy up some of those mercenaries in Sicily, and they did! So we might finally have a proper decisive battle on the island, rather than all these pointless sieges where I sally out and drive them off in the first turn.

    I may try to do a more detailed AAR on this battle since it's pretty significant.

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    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Dang how did you lose the hold on north Africa? You had two of their cities occupied! Did I miss a battle?

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    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Ehhh.... he just raided them in an attempt to imitate Regulus invasion of North Africa? Read the AAR, and you´ll see it.
    The Appomination

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    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Appo
    Ehhh.... he just raided them in an attempt to imitate Regulus invasion of North Africa? Read the AAR, and you´ll see it.
    wow so he is trying to replicate each battle too? Dang thats gonna be tough

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chirurgeon
    wow so he is trying to replicate each battle too? Dang thats gonna be tough
    No, just the general idea of the various campaigns. I couldn't get a battle in Africa, so had to settle for just raiding two of their cities. Fortunately they did then hire scads of mercenaries in Sicily, so when the army returned from Africa, it was to prepare for a big battle.

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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    The Battle of Elymia 250BC:

    The proconsul Lucius Cornelius Scipio had returned to Sicily after a successful campaign in Africa in 251BC. He had sent ahead for reinforcements and resupplies to join him on the island, for he intended to continue the war against Qarthadast on these shores. He spent the campaiging season of 251 marching for Messana and the desparately needed supplies. He heard through scouts and locals that there was a large Karthadastim force in the region, but he had to prepare rather than lead his weary troops into combat again.

    On reaching Messana late in autumnus, the proconsul was struck with an ague, and ordered his troops to build camp and set his subordinates to preparing the men for next season's campaign, while he convalesced in the city of Messana. The client ruler of Messana hosted the ailing general, regaling him with accounts of the numerous attempts the Karthadastim had made on the city, and giving him the true story of the rumours that he had personally turned the tide of one of these battles.

    By the spring of 250, Scipio and his army were ready to march, new maniples and a detachment of cavalry arriving from the mainland to bring his consular army back to full strength. Unfortunately he was still stuck with the drunkard Kaeso Claudius Nero, foremost among the tribunes and a thoroughly bad influence on all those young men. His uncle had ensured he was placed with Scipio's army for two reasons; in the vain hope military service might reform his wayward nephew, but failing that he might at least cause trouble for Scipio and slow the ascendancy of that man's star. For if this campaign went well, all might recognise that Scipio was becoming the First Man in Rome.

    Yet in spite of his trepidations about vipers in his midst, the army left promptly with the melting of the snows on Etna's lower slopes. It was not until summer that contact was made with the Qarthadast army, on the southern coast several miles from the Karthadastim city of Lilibeo. Scipio halted and made his camp close to the shore.

    The Qarthadast, led by the young Hamalcar were content to wait in their camp opposite the Romans, but his hand was forced by a rash captain Abdosir who was eager for some glory and frustrated by the progress of the campaign in Sicily. Hamalcar had only recently hired a large contingent of mercenaries, a mixture of Iberians, Ligurians, Gauls from several tribes and some Hellenic spearmen, and hadn't yet had time to properly integrate them into his army. But he was faced with losing Abdosir's men, which included elites recently transported from Kart-Hadast, and possibly risked another main stealing the glory. For Abdosir had a grandfather on the Council of Thirty, and an ancestor who had been a suffete. So reluctantly he joined battle in support of the hot-headed captain.



    Hearing from his scouts that there were in fact two Karthadastim forces approaching his camp, Scipio had his army march out into battle order barely a mile from the tents. He anchored his left flank on the shoreline and deployed in the traditional triplex acies.

    In the consilium the night before, he had stressed to his legates, tribunes and centurions the importance of strict discipline, for restraint, not battle-lust would win the day. They had to be wary of the superior enemy numbers and keep the men in hand. He said this not out of cowardice, for he had won the corona civica for gallantry outside the walls of Taras twenty years before, but because he knew what an over-enthusiastic soldier might do. As a general, he must look to the preservation of the whole and beyond the chance to win personal accolades. Nero had insisted that he be allowed the position of honour on the right wing, and given he was a pompous Claudii, none would dare gainsay him. So Scipio granted his request, hoping the man would at least be sober on the morrow. Thus Scipio personally commanded the centre, Nero the right wing and a praefectus sociorum with some allied cavalry the left. Scipio retained a body of Campanian cavalry in reserve where he could direct them to where they were most needed.



    The smaller Karthadastim force marched in from the north, with the larger coming in from the east. Scipio ordered his officers to give the command to ground arms while they waited to see what the enemy would do. He was concerned in particular to see if this smaller force would wait for reinforcements, or simply attack.



    The reckless Abdosir sent his scant force forwards, leading the light horse personally.



    His Iberian light troops were harassed at range by the Roman archers, losing a number of men as they approached. They charged the ala on the right wing, clashing with the Bruttians who stood firm. Matching the Qarthadast captain in impetuousity, Nero charged his horse forwards, his friends following as they slammed into the Iberian's flank. It was too much for the tribesmen, who broke and ran. Heedless of discipline, Nero and his companions gave chase, ignoring a rider from Scipio ordering them back into line.



    While this was going on, Abdosir and his cavalry made for the Roman lines and his infantry struggled to keep up and maintain their formation. Abdosir came under a prolonged shower of missiles from the Roman skirmishers, losing half his force. At the critical moment, Scipio sent his Campanian reserve forward, and they broke the will of the Karthadastim cavalry.



    Abdosir made good his escape, leaving the rest of his detachment to their fate, and the well-drilled Campanians broke off pursuit. By now the elite African pikemen had engaged, but looked warily over their shoulder at the fleeing captain. The Campanians charged into their rear, and that was it. They ran in all directions, tossing away weapon and shield in their haste. And thus it was that the first Qarthadast force was disposed of. Scipio allowed the allied skirmishers to give chase, cutting down many of the pikemen in their headlong flight.



    He gave the order for the rest of the army to wheel and face the threat of the larger army.



    Hamalcar had drawn up his men in a single line, but dared not march towards the Romans. He was having language problems communicating with some of the new contingents, and decided to stay put. Feeling buoyed by their easy victory, the Romans advanced to meet their new foe.



    Yet still they could not provoke the enemy to attack, so they marched still further, taking care to dress their lines and hold formation. Eventually Nero halted his pursuit and turned back for the Roman lines.



    Some Ligurians and Iberians were provoked by Roman taunts, and charged without orders.





    But the Iberians particularly suffered from several volleys of javelins, and the survivors turned and ran. Scipio sent his trusty Campanians forward once more to mop up the survivors.



    Unlike Nero, the decurion in charge of the Campanians knew his business. When some formed up Greeks and pikemen charged, he turned his cavalry around and made for the safety of the infantry lines.



    The pikemen attacked the left flank of Roman line unsupported, and thus some allied skirmishers were able to slip in behind them. For now the praefectus held the rest of his force in reserve, trusting the fighting skill of the Bruttians to keep them safe.

    The skirmishers charged.



    Then the centurion commanding the nearby principes decided to finish the matter.



    Under this onslaught, not even the tough pikemen could prevail, and although some chose to fight to the bitter end, their gesture was futile. Once again the Campanians were ordered forward to finish them.



    The principes were ordered back to their place in the line, and for a few minutes there was a lull in the fighting.



    Then Hamalcar, despairing of controlling his armies, gave the command to attack. He engaged the Roman left and centre, but his own left wing refused to join the battle, and he haraunged the chieftains to little avail.



    More troops were fed into the combat in the centre, and for a time it was a desparate fight.



    Meanwhile on the Roman left Gallic warriors tried to turn the Roman flank, stopped only by the allied skirmishers who had already done so much this day. Their stand allowed the Greek and Campanian cavalry to slip around the fighting line.



    In the centre the Ligurians broke and again the Campanians capitalised on their despair. The Bruttians wheeled around and hit the Iberians engaged with the prinicpes on their flank. They also gave up the fight.



    The Greek cavalry charged the read of the phalanx to little avail, and so withdraw and re-addressed, trying the Gauls instead. At the same time the principes in the left legion, without any opponents marched to the rescue of the left wing.



    It was their arrival that turned the tide, the Gauls losing heart.



    Daylight was beginning to fail, and on the right wing Nero was growing bored. Plus his hangover was starting to set in, and he wanted to take that out on someone. He brought up the right ala to attack the Gauls who had refused to move when ordered.



    His ill-advised maneuver turned the right wing into chaos as the Qarthadast cavalry attacked, and a body of Ligurians joined in support of the Gauls.



    On the left flank, the Greek phalanx had had enough, they could see which way this battle was going with the piecemeal command and lack of support.



    Seeing the exodus on the left and centre, the Gauls opposing Nero fled, the tribune giving chase eagerly.



    Which was to be the last action of the battle as dusk prevented a concerted pursuit.



    Scipio was hailed as imperator by his men, for they had soundly defeated a much larger for and their own casualties were relatively light. Even so, in the interests of preserving his force, Scipio withdraw and marched back to Messana to restock. It was approaching the end of the campaigning season, and there would be more to this war yet.

    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-12-2008 at 18:24.

  27. #27
    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Great battle man. Too bad they didnt have it together. I notice alot that AI reinforcements will sometimes deploy randomly throughout the field. They will not engage.

  28. #28
    EBII Hod Carrier Member
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Yeah, I was a bit annoyed when the smaller force attacked me, rather than the bigger one having seen how reinforcements sometimes do really stupid things.

    I did note that the conditions for Imperator have been made easier, used to need a heroic victory against big odds.

  29. #29
    Member Member hrrypttrbst's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Very good battle!!I like the way you try to recreate the history on such a way

  30. #30
    Member Member alatar's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Romani AAR] It began on seven hills...

    Quintvs, could you upload your save files?

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