What a pathetic stooge

[Don Corleone]

Talk about pissing what little crediblity you have left in the world away...

So former U.S. President James Earl Carter recently visited Israel, Palestine and Syria. The stated purpose of the trip was to 'engage all sides', but in reality, the purpose of the trip was for somebody in the West to engage Hamas in high-level talks.

The governments of Israel and the US patently asked Carter not to make the visit. Hamas is one of the leading terror organizations in the world. They are dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel, and they've made various statements on the right of Jews to exist anywhere.

So, Carter, the ultimate egomaniac, tells the State Department to pound sand. He goes anyway, and holds a meeting of equals with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal. Carter then proceeds to announce about how he's made progress, and Hamas will now agree to recognize the right of Israel to exist, if it passed a referendum among the Palestinian people.

As if to give the final F-u to his little prison-ho, Meshaal held a press conference three hours later to say that Hamas would not recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Great peacemaker, or pathetic fool who doesn't realize his time has come and gone? Let's review:

Hamas got: A former president of the United States to come lick their boots in front of the world's media.
Carter got: His name in the paper's again?

[Mikeus Caesar]

Heaven forbid we try to engage in dialogue to end the constant slaughter, even if it doesn't get us anywhere...

Because obviously the only way to end the constant slaughter is turn Hamas into glass and let the Israeli government have their way.

[Ronin]

how dare he try to come up something that might actually turn out to be a solution?!?!?!?!?!

the nerve of that man!!

I mean...it´s obvious that the right solution for this problem is just for both sides to keep blowing each other's up in new and ingenious ways....I mean...that has worked in the past right?

[Geoffrey S]

There's no way the violence will end as long as terrorists such as Hamas are the political mainstream among Palestinians. Carter attempting to lend political credibility to such groups is not helpful at all.

[Don Corleone]

Heaven forbid we try to engage in dialogue to end the constant slaughter, even if it doesn't get us anywhere...

Because obviously the only way to end the constant slaughter is turn Hamas into glass and let the Israeli government have their way.

how dare he try to come up something that might actually turn out to be a solution?!?!?!?!?!

the nerve of that man!!

I mean...it´s obvious that the right solution for this problem is just for both sides to keep blowing each other's up in new and ingenious ways....I mean...that has worked in the past right?

Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?

[Tribesman]

Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?

Errrrrr...Don it was talks about talks , you know like clinton and Blair and Bush Reagan and Thatcher and Major all had with terrorists , denying all the time that they would negotiate with terrorists and all the time the terrorists straight away making claims that they were not going to compromise on their demands .
Meanwhile Isreal who doesn't talk to terrorists is talking to Hamas about talks through Egypt and America is talking through Egypt and Saudi Arabia to Hamas about talks .

they've made various statements on the right of Jews to exist anywhere.

yeah yeah yeah and only the Mormons will exist at the end of days ..or was that Jews or Christians or pastafarians

[HoreTore]

I can't say that this is having less effect than the official US and israel policy has...

[Ronin]

Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?

it´s called trying....nobody said he was successful.

[Adrian II]

Guys, guys, this is how American Christians treat eachother.

In another thread Dave wrote that Carter's volunteer building project was 'building homes for useless leaches'.

Now his effort to get talks about talks going (isn't that how the spiral of violence was broken in Northern Ireland?) is called 'pissing away credibility'.

Can't be long now before someone calls the Salvation Army a '******* waste of good money'.

[Viking]

I can't say that this is having less effect than the official US and israel policy has...

What bollocks, the Israeli policy has lead lead to decades of terrorism and countless dead bodies on both sides. It's pretty decent by sadist measures.

[Don Corleone]

Guys, guys, this is how American Christians treat eachother.

In another thread Dave wrote that Carter's volunteer building project was 'building homes for useless leaches'.

Now his effort to get talks about talks going (isn't that how the spiral of violence was broken in Northern Ireland?) is called 'pissing away credibility'.

Can't be long now before someone calls the Salvation Army a '******* waste of good money'.

You know, I can understand ad hominem attacks from others in this thread, but frankly Adrian, I thought you were capable of better.

Last time I checked, Gerry Adams didn't make it a point hold a press conference to publicly call George Mitchell a liar 3 hours after George announced the results of the initial visit. And I'm pretty damn sure neither Warren Christopher nor Madeline Albright specifically asked George Mitchell NOT to initiate ex-partae talks.

If that's the best you can come up with, so be it. But you're slipping.

[Devastatin Dave]

Carter also did wonders for the Iranian issues. This guys is as worthless a tits on a bull or Katrina "victims". My only wish is that either someone commits this old bird into an abusive old folks home or the next religion of peace home video releases this anti-Semite d-bag getting a Middle east shave job while the barber praising Allah.

Care to critique this statement my old friend Adrian? Good to see you y theway. Being quoted by you has always bben a secret sourse of pleasure for me.

[Lemur]

You would think that the pressure of actually having to govern something would mellow Hamas out a little bit. That's how it usually works. Unfortunately, they seem to be taking the Mugabe/Castro path of blaming everything on foreign powers while doing nothing productive.

Poor Jimmy Carter. You would think he would be savvy to how much lying and two-faced deception goes on in the Middle East, but I guess he's getting duller with age. According to the article, however, he managed to get a letter delivered. That's something to boast about! That letter would never have made it without Carter's intervention.

Don Corleone, I don't think Adrian's comment was so very ad hominem. In his silly way he was making a valid point; some right-wing rhetoric pretends that all charity is wasted and all peacemaking is foolishness. It's a profoundly un-Christian perspective, which is why it's legit for A2 to point out that the same right-wingers who rail on the poor and destitute are usually also in favor of Christian supremacy. Bit of a paradox there.

[Don Corleone]

I'm all for peacekeeping. I don't consider myself a hypocrite for being for a strong foreign policy AND a Christian, but hey, by all means Lemur, call me one. Last time I checked, I'm pretty generous with the poor, and I'd put my tax returns against yours or Adrian's to prove my charitable giving.

My point is there is a difference between being a George Mitchell and a Neville Chamberlain. Both had the same stated goal. One was wise about the way he went after his goal, one wasn't.

[Craterus]

My point is there is a difference between being a George Mitchell and a Neville Chamberlain. Both had the same stated goal. One was wise about the way he went after his goal, one wasn't.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

[Adrian II]

Care to critique this statement my old friend Adrian?

It's crap.

Good to see you y theway. Being quoted by you has always bben a secret sourse of pleasure for me.

Frankly, good Sir, I've missed your unreconstructed self. Good to have you back. Yeeehaw!



So how come you're out of the can so soon? Picked up all the soaps for that nice warden?

[Devastatin Dave]

It's crap.
Frankly, good Sir, I've missed your unreconstructed self. Good to have you back. Yeeehaw!



So how come you're out of the can so soon? Picked up all the soaps for that nice warden?

A little word of advice, my friend Adrian... Never ablidge someone in a steamy shower to pick up their liquid soap for them.

[Adrian II]

A little word of advice, my friend Adrian... Never ablidge someone in a steamy shower to pick up their liquid soap for them.

I think that's what the guy in my sig did. His glasses are still steamed up..

[Adrian II]

You know, I can understand ad hominem attacks from others in this thread, but frankly Adrian, I thought you were capable of better.

Hominem shnominem, Don. I am defending a Christian against
the 'reproach of man' (Psalm 22:6) here.

Seamus Fermanagh gave a much more balanced evaluation of Carter in #93 of the 'Worst President ever' thread, something I would expect from a (fellow) Christian. Ironically it's not Carter who is burning credebility, it's his American detractors who brand him a loser, an idiot, even a traitor.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hominem shnominem, Don. I am defending a Christian against
the 'reproach of man' (Psalm 22:6) here.

Seamus Fermanagh gave a much more balanced evaluation of Carter in #93 of the 'Worst President ever' thread, something I would expect from a (fellow) Christian. Ironically it's not Carter who is burning credebility, it's his American detractors who brand him a loser, an idiot, even a traitor.

Is there anything wrong with calling Carter a loser? He is welcome at my table and, if he needed shelter, food, or drink - he can count on me. However, he was a hack as the President just as he is now a senile old codger. I would defend him from harm, but c'mon - he is an abject political failure.

He should be the leader of students for 60,000.

[Xiahou]

Poor Jimmy Carter. You would think he would be savvy to how much lying and two-faced deception goes on in the Middle East, but I guess he's getting duller with age.

I prefer "crazier", but I guess "duller" is close enough. He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.

It's a profoundly un-Christian perspective, which is why it's legit for A2 to point out that the same right-wingers who rail on the poor and destitute are usually also in favor of Christian supremacy. Bit of a paradox there.

Who, DD? I like him, but I certainly don't consider him representative of "right-wingers" on this board. Seeing as how AdrianII was replying to Don and not DD, I think he was most likely having a bit of fun and taking some pot shots- which is his right, but I think the change of tone probably came as a surprise to Don.

[Tribesman]

He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.

You may be right there Xiahou , but then again since much amrerican foriegn policy has been complete bollox for quite a while now it shows that he ain't stupid

Last time I checked, Gerry Adams didn't make it a point hold a press conference to publicly call George Mitchell a liar 3 hours after George announced the results of the initial visit.

Oh so when Mitchell said he was getting the guns out of politics Adams didn't say his gunmen hadn't gone away you know .
Try again Don

[Beirut]

If the goal is for simply one less act of violence to be committed, a true believer in peace will talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

It takes guts and I applaud anyone who goes against the grain and takes a chance.

Communication is the key. If it doesn't work, fine, then let loose the dogs of war. But never should rage and cowardice disguised as upstanding nationalism stop any one man from talking to another if there is even the smallest chance that the end result will be a reduction in the level of violence.

[Don Corleone]

Oh so when Mitchell said he was getting the guns out of politics Adams didn't say his gunmen hadn't gone away you know .
Try again Don

So close, and yet so far....Survey says...

Would you mind showing me the link where Gerry Adams got up and held a press conference and said "everything that man just said is bollox", which is basically what happened here?

Nobody ever actually fulfills the outcome of a series of peace talks, at least not the early ones. But it's a new kind of 'screw you too' to hold a press conference just to publicly disclaim what your 'partner in peace' just said, especially something so fundamental as a right to exist.

[Xiahou]

If the goal is for simply one less act of violence to be committed, a true believer in peace will talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

Too bad he failed miserably. Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said. He was used as a PR tool for Hamas and made no meaningful progress otherwise.

It's almost like the exact same thing that the State Dept warned him would happen happened.

[Beirut]

Too bad he failed miserably. Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said. He was used as a PR tool for Hamas and made no meaningful progress otherwise.

In our present world of some six billion people, it would appear from all accounts that close to all of them are willing to kill the other guy on account of this reason, that reason, or perhaps even the other reason. There is no shortage of anger, weapons, money to finance anger and weapons, nor people susceptible to the joys that anger and weapons provide. That being said, if don't mind worth a shmoo's tuckus if one guy takes it upon himself to take the road less travelled and try as he might to sit and talk for a moment in hopes that during the five minutes he's talking to the other guy, the other guy won't be killing anyone. It would be, one might say, five minutes well spent.

To be honest, and this is just my mind, great doubts come to me about those with lots and lots guns who stand in fear and rage at those lone individuals who dare to sit and talk. It makes the people with weapons look weak and dishonest, and weak dishonest people with lots and lots of guns is a patently bad idea.

[Tribesman]

Would you mind showing me the link where Gerry Adams got up and held a press conference and said "everything that man just said is bollox", which is basically what happened here?

Well Don it might help if the people you are talking about had actually said that ..or anything remotely like it . As it certainly isn't basicly what happened , besides which you could follow the State Depts comments about Hamas follow up press statement for a little thought , because currently your reaction to Carters talking to Hamas is exactly the same as Al-Qaidas reaction to Hamas talking to Carter .

Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said.

Another one that didn't follow the state dept .
Oh what was it exactly errr...public rhetoric , pinch of salt .

Now you could believe completey the public rhetoric of the Hamas , but it would be as wise as believing Charlie Haughey or Margaret Thatcher saying they doesn't negotiate with terrorists

[Don Corleone]

Well Don it might help if the people you are talking about had actually said that ..or anything remotely like it . As it certainly isn't basicly what happened , besides which you could follow the State Depts comments about Hamas follow up press statement for a little thought , because currently your reaction to Carters talking to Hamas is exactly the same as Al-Qaidas reaction to Hamas talking to Carter .

So basically, then, no? You can't think of a time when Gerry Adams held a press conference to announce the exact opposite of what George Mitchell had said 3 hours prior in wrap-up session of a series of talks? Didn't think so.

[Ronin]

I prefer "crazier", but I guess "duller" is close enough. He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.

well...considering the route US foreign policy has taken for the last few years that can only be taken as a sign of good sense on his part.

[Tribesman]

So basically, then, no?

errrr, when did you stop beating your wife Don ?

You can't think of a time when Gerry Adams held a press conference to announce the exact opposite of what George Mitchell had said 3 hours prior in wrap-up session of a series of talks? Didn't think so.

Since that isn't what happened with Carter/Hamas your point is ?
Did Hamas publicly contrdict some of what Carter said afterwards
Did Adams publicly contrasdict some of what Mitchell said
So Don you is setting up one of them scarecrow thingies made of straw . well done .

As I said Don you are taking the same line as Al-qaida is taking in relation to this meeting , does that put you in good company ?