Manipulating Crusades

[lobf]

I know this has been discussed here before, but I was thinking about this as I went to sleep last night.

I was always bothered by the lack of the ability to raise levy legions suddenly in the face of a surprise attack or other sudden need. The scene from HBO's Rome comes to mind, when Pompey said something along the lines of "with the snap of my fingers ten legions would spring up around me." (obviously he said it much more poetically.)

So I was wondering- could MTW2's crusade feature be used for this purpose? That game didn't hold my interest long, so I'm not too familiar with the mechanics, but could it be implemented and not abused by the AI?

I'm interested to hear what team members have to say.

[General Appo]

You do know that Pompey was wrong when he said that don´t you? He did after all retreat from Italy because of a lack of trained troops, so it might not have been the best example you chosed.

[Foot]

No the crusade thing wouldn't work. The only way you could do it is through merceneries, but their mechanic is just not fitting enough. We will work with the regular recruitment, but to our own purposes. Still it did take some months to get an army ready.

Foot

[lobf]

I was just using the quote as an example. I know he was wrong.

Anyways, some months equals a turn, doesn't it? Will crusades have any sort of implementation?

[Foot]

No because crusades require a papal faction. There won't be a papal faction.

Foot

[lobf]

Gotcha.

[hellenes]

No because crusades require a papal faction. There won't be a papal faction.

Foot

IMO if the crusade feature can revolutionise TW reqruitment system (levied armies as in reality) its worth sacrificising one faction...but its even better to use the jihad system if it can be modded to be launched at any target...

[ziegenpeter]

Why do you need a Papal faction? Would it be impossible to call a Jihad without the papal faction?
And I think what lobf meant is that you can recruit cheap units on crusade

[antisocialmunky]

Why not just always have tons of lower-quality high upkeep troops that you can mass recruit?

[Tobolight]

I think the best thing would to use the "apache war path"

[Foot]

Why do you need a Papal faction? Would it be impossible to call a Jihad without the papal faction?
And I think what lobf meant is that you can recruit cheap units on crusade

You seem to be confused. I didn't mention Jihads. I talked about crusades.

Foot

[hellenes]

I think the best thing would to use the "apache war path"

OH!!! Thats right!!! I drool even now thinking of ditching this whole unrealistic dumbed down "RTS" style "reqruitment"!!! it didnt take 5 years (20 turns) to raise a legion....

[lobf]

Exactly. That always bugged the hell out of me.

[The General]

OH!!! Thats right!!! I drool even now thinking of ditching this whole unrealistic dumbed down "RTS" style "reqruitment"!!! it didnt take 5 years (20 turns) to raise a legion....

Well, you can recruit a few units per turn in M2TW, so that'll cut the time to 1/3rd of that, or something, won't it?

[Foot]

We will work with what we have. I doubt very much we will replace the normal recruitment and use a Jihad-esque system. Expect something very different from EBI though.

Foot

[Patriote]

Yes indeed, up to three units maybe recruit each turn for castles and bigger cities. I guess that with the limit to the recruitment pool of units, it would be possible to limit the AI recruitment so the AI won't simply get bankrupted 3 times quicker

Also, in RTW, it is possible to set a level of spending for the player's cities control by the AI. Is it possible to do the same for whole AI factions ?

As for the Jihad, even if it does not require a Papal faction like for the Crusaders, it still requires a high piety Imam to declare the Jihad against a non-islamist target. Even it could be modded, there are still many limitations to the Jihad concept. It would have to be aimed at one of the agressor cities and troops, as you know, troops would desert if they spend too much time idle, stuck or not attacking their expected target.

Now, since I'm already writing a post, and someone mentioned low quality high upkeep troops, I have a question (not trying to high-jack the post) I am wondering, were units this expensive to maintain thus the high upkeeps present in the game? I understand that for cavalry and especially elephants this is normal (stables, fodders and specialists) but infantry units, once they have been equipped (arms and armors to be forged) and trained, what else is needed to be paid for, I can't see anything else and why it costs like 1/10 of the original raising cost, were wages and maintenance this high too, enlight me here please

[Foot]

If you take men away from their farms then their farms don't produce money and you cannot tax them. Makes sense to me. Thats why people used mercenaries so much, professional soldiers were better fighters and all your farm land still produced food.

Foot

[Patriote]

ahh yes its true! Never though of that It makes sense to me too

Was there instances where some empires or kingdoms dispopulated their farming lands to an almost dangerous level ? I'm just curious about it

[Foot]

Its what happened in Rome. Soldiers ended up being away for so long that the land just wasn't producing. It was sold off to rich landowners who didn't need to go to war and turned into Latifundia (farms run by slaves, who didn't go to war). In the end land became so consolidated that there weren't enough men who fulfilled the land-owning requisite for joining the army and so the Romans had to widen the net of recruitment so to speak, which eventually led Marius to formalising new rules for joining the army.

Foot

[hellenes]

Apache warpath can be launched against any settlement....This feature may be used for urgent times like an option of mobilization...

[The Celt]

Apache warpath can be launched against any settlement....This feature may be used for urgent times like an option of mobilization...

...Or migration...

[MidevalLoRd]

Well, Im not completely sure about this, during the punic wars, many of the soldiers where volunteers that came off their farms to fight. of course, that changed later on and soldiers started making the military their carrier. So, you could use a Jihad system for a while, use mercenaries, and still have the game be realistic, right?

[Cartaphilus]

The point is that the "Jihad" should be used only in exceptional occasions (like the Punic War or when your capital is threatened), not constantly.
But how limit the use of the Jihad system I don't know.

[hellenes]

The point is that the "Jihad" should be used only in exceptional occasions (like the Punic War or when your capital is threatened), not constantly.
But how limit the use of the Jihad system I don't know.

apatche warpath...

[Patriote]

What is the apache warpath exactly ??

[bovi]

The apache warpath is a feature much like the crusades and jihads, that magically increases the speed of the units following it and makes them liable to desert if you're not going towards the target. It also gives positive traits when it is successful.

[ziegenpeter]

You seem to be confused. I didn't mention Jihads. I talked about crusades.

Foot

I thougt thats basically the same. About the routing problem, when you're not going straight to the target: Thats probably moddable...?
About upkeep costs: But why is it more expensive to have 60 Elite units away from their fields than 60 standart units. Are the former ones better peasants?

[BozosLiveHere]

The apache warpath is a feature much like the crusades and jihads, that magically increases the speed of the units following it and makes them liable to desert if you're not going towards the target. It also gives positive traits when it is successful.

The Apache warpath is exactly the same as a Jihad, only with a funkier name.

[hellenes]

The Apache warpath is exactly the same as a Jihad, only with a funkier name.

But it has no religious implications...

[Skullheadhq]

...Or migration...

HELVETII!!!!!!!!!!!!!