MTW-Redux Beta Released!

[Axalon]

Hi guys and thanks to Gollum for providing da extra link. Anyhow, I’ll
start with Gaius, but first for those who might need it…



The Official MTW Patch 1.1
==================================================

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/m.../patch/16.html

http://www.atomicgamer.com/files/234...ro_release-zip



Both links are functional and reliable…. (US/Euro-release)

This makes me...want to play MTW again

Well, Redux is good place to start, so feel free to give it a shot if you like. Besides, redux is infamously crammed with sexy little princesses – and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I mean royal vixens just aching to meet and marry you... How can you or anybody possibly turn that down, you can't can you?!

...

I'd like to play new Redux but I don't have MTW 1.1. I have to wait for the VI version.

You are probably not alone, it will come eventually... Hopefully you (and others) will like it, once you get the chance to play it.

btw I'm curious, What are the reasons of still making a mod for MTW 1.1?

For me, three things; availability for all, practiced solidarity with V.1.1-owners and personal preference (just like some people prefer original STW ahead of the Wardlord edition for instance).

Non-VI owners has with little exception been left out in the cold and ignored – I wanted to change that – while still offering an game-experience that can succesfully compete with the big stuff done for VI exclusively. As if, for once, VI did not actually matter. Proving that VI is hardly a neccesity for making intersting and good stuff for MTW on general terms – contruary to popular belief it seems. VI is easier and friendlier to work with and it does offer more possibilities - but the results are not available for all. I don’t like that circumstance and at least redux in its standard form should and will be available to ALL – utterly regardless of what version of MTW they have. Roughly 50% of all people who play, or have played, redux have probably done so upon V.1.1. Redux is thus unique, since it does offer virtually the same game and experience regardless of version of MTW – no other major mod has done that or have such traits to date.

What are the main differences (in case of modding) between 1.1 and 2.01?

40 ton of differences… In short, I think V1.1 is harder to handle, more screwed up and restricted. You have more options and possibilities in VI, and it is easier and friendlier... etc. etc.

...

This is great news although it will be a couple weeks til i have proper time to install and play.....Meanwhile can someone post up some screenies?

Achilles, I will probably put up some screens eventually. For now I’ll pass that ball to the community, if somebody is kind enough to post up some screens of new redux – then feel free to do so. In the unlikely event that it actually happens, please remeber that for pics bigger then 800x600 pixels use spoilers or thumbs etc.

...

Being somewhat paranoid about malware and the like, can anyone suggest a good clean site from which I can download the 1.1 patch?

Well Victor, I can certainly relate to that, anyhow you got two solid links now. Do enjoy da game…





Some other notes…

I have finally put another link for the new Redux BETA (over at Atomic gamer, slower but have yet to disapoint me). I may have also been too eager to get rid of the 2nd Ed links so I have put them up again for reference for any people wanting to try out old redux out as they wait for the new VI-upgrade module. Furthermore, it would still be good if I can get it confirmed that the files works – I do believe they work – but it would be better to be 100% sure. Anything else, fire away…

- Cheers

[Stazi]

Thanks for the answers. I'll be waiting for the VI version but in the meantime, could you give us a little insight into the new features/changes of 3rd edition (except already described map changes)?

[Plato]

This post consists of a number of firsts:

It's my first on these forums - I joined in particular to say thank you for continuing to develop for MTW and not just VI. I feel VI's siren call when I see it second hand, but resist the temptation as I'm sure it would eat up months of my life (I'll save them for Redux instead!)

Possibly the first download - I doubt GameFront's statistics display the truth as I can attest that at least one completed. It might have been due to problems with IE warnings "are you sure you want to download this file". Everything seems intact; no errors found according to WinRAR.

I look forward to installing and trying it out later, but first a couple of comments on the readme, which I skimmed through:

- I think you have mentioned at some point in this thread that Redux is balanced for a particular army size (something other than Huge). It could do with repeating, probably a number of times.
- 'Audio & Redux' section says that battle music can be restored. Assuming the original is backed up, stating which folder/files this is would be helpful.
- maybe a separate "Top Ten Do's and Don'ts" file that can be printed out or whatever, to avoid the nastiest bugs and Alt-Tabbing to the readme.

[western]

Axalon

This is a repeat post. Dunno what happened to my last one telling you it was all working sweetly (playing as Saracens). I must have forgotten to press something!

In the interim my son also had a go with it (as Byz) and pronounced it a fun mod - so you have two observations for the price of one.

First of all thanks. Really good and polished Mod, bringing a fresh take on the game and therefore a new playing experience. A few particulars:

We were both very struck by the rebels - persistent devils, with good troops, who don't seem to be preventable just by keeping up loyalty. Not sure what's going on - more than one type of rebellion? - but it keeps you on your toes.

I like the wide array of buildings, all well thought out and giving flavour as well as options.

New sea provinces seem to be working well in terms of making trade a bit more challenging and mad sea invasions a bit less likely.

So, very highly recommended to all who have MTW 1.1.

My one suggestion - since it is a beta - is to have more units restricted by area, so provinces have a bit more of an individual flavour. I like what you have done with Armenians. I'm not so keen on being able to spam camels in places like Cilicia. I like my empire to have unique contributions made from its different territories, and it adds to the feel of the game that within the same faction armies will have different characters according to where they originate from.

No bugs at all found.

Hope this game is still fun for you to play - even when you know what is going on under the hood - and that you will be encouraged to keep polishing now that the hard labour is hopefully done

[Axalon]

Hi and thanks a bunch guys,


Plato…

I really appreciate the input and your post in general. I needed to hear that stuff and Intel. Furthermore, it is much easier for me to fight the good fight when some of the V.1.1 users step forward here - ultimately proving that I ain’t dreaming it all up...

Possibly the first download - I doubt GameFront's statistics display the truth as I can attest that at least one completed. It might have been due to problems with IE warnings "are you sure you want to download this file". Everything seems intact; no errors found according to WinRAR.

Yeah, there is definitely some crap going on at gamefront (yet again) – I downloaded the file a second time just to confirm that something was wrong with the stats.

- In light of these events, I would recommend everybody to turn to Atomic instead (primary link) since they have yet to screw up in anything actually… Err, I mean that in the best possible sense.



Wes…

I really appreciate your post and Intel as well. I needed to hear your stuff also and get that confirmation. Do keep an eye out for da bugs – please post ‘em up at the debug area if you find any (a promising candidate could be some weirdness in da battle animations, odd positions of weapon & shields etc, I fear there might still be problems there). Keep me posted on your general experiences as you play new redux – regardless the faction. To be honest, at this point I am mostly hoping for the “regular-factions” – but the optional ones are good to get some Intel on as well (I must get it anyway). As I said before, the more Intel, the better decisions I can make. I will probably set up threads for such ends at some point (at least for regular factions).

I like the wide array of buildings, all well thought out and giving flavour as well as options.

Yup, the plan is to provide plenty of choices and diversity for the game.

My one suggestion - since it is a beta - is to have more units restricted by area, so provinces have a bit more of an individual flavour. I like what you have done with Armenians. I'm not so keen on being able to spam camels in places like Cilicia. I like my empire to have unique contributions made from its different territories, and it adds to the feel of the game that within the same faction armies will have different characters according to where they originate from.

I can certainly sympathize and you already got your wish all over the map here and there. However, MTW will not allow me to do that all the way – I must have at least a few units “universal” for each culture or get screwed up rebeliions for sure. - Tell you what, if you want to draw up a suggestion on da camels were you want the lines/border for the “camel zone” and I will give it a serious and honest read. It is not utterly carved in stone yet, as you pointed out. Convince me…


Regarding the rebels
===============
Yeah, I have turned up the heat on them significantly - in effect making redux much nastier then it ever was before (as it should have been in 2nd edition). Rebels and pirates are for real in redux and don’t ever forget it – if allowed to roam too freely they will eventually become serious problem for you as well.

- While testing I’ve seen them smash regular factions to smithereens all over the map (England, Byzantium, Saracens for instance). It all goes back and forth, sometimes they get really strong, owning virtually every sea-square (forcing you to fight for every measly square) and sometimes they get wiped right of the map (seems like this happens a bit more often these days) and spend their days as a mere curiosities in some remote corner, virtually exterminated. It will be really interesting to get more info on them and how they affect the overall game-experience.



Stazi…

Your question is both understandable and valid. I will get back to it in a separate post – shortly (I hope).

- Cheers

[western]

Hi Axalon

I played a brief campaign as Spain and my son a much longer one as Byz.

One very small bug that I've posted in the bug area, but very smooth and no crashes in more than two hours of play.

Factions were all developing and spreading as they should. Rebel ships a real challenge to get rid of and establish trade. After many turns as Byz my son, on standard, went down to a triple attack by huge stacks of Italians, Saracens and (smaller) Russian.

Finally, you kindly asked my opinion on limits on camels. Historical arguments don't really wash with Redux (tho for a fact camel units were rare at all periods). So let's go with the logic of the game and say camels should come from desert (not dry) provinces, embracing the areas inhabited by Bedouin and Tuareg, ie all North Africa, Sinai, Arabia, arguably Syria and Jerusalem but not Antioch, Tripoli, Edessa, Cilicia, Spain or points north. I'd like them to be an exotic and different challenge - like a left handed fighter - rather than commonplace and not geographically rooted. Given the climatic zones the game covers, I think it's quite appealing to have desert areas feel as different as possible - and provinces on the margin of deserts being menaced by what comes out of them

[Beirut]

Axalon,

Thanks for the mod. Great stuff.

[Axalon]

Hi guys…

Thanks for the mod. Great stuff.

Do enjoy da game…

...

Factions were all developing and spreading as they should. Rebel ships a real challenge to get rid of and establish trade.

Good…. Please keep me posted…

After many turns as Byz my son, on standard, went down to a triple attack by huge stacks of Italians, Saracens and (smaller) Russian.

Interesting… Naval invasion as well?

Finally, you kindly asked my opinion on limits on camels. Historical arguments don't really wash with Redux (tho for a fact camel units were rare at all periods). So let's go with the logic of the game and say camels should come from desert (not dry) provinces, embracing the areas inhabited by Bedouin and Tuareg, ie all North Africa, Sinai, Arabia, arguably Syria and Jerusalem but not Antioch, Tripoli, Edessa, Cilicia, Spain or points north. I'd like them to be an exotic and different challenge - like a left handed fighter - rather than commonplace and not geographically rooted.

Ok… I am not dismissing these ideas just quite yet. The camel-zone can shrink.

Any other players with opinions on da camel-zone? I won’t wait forever thou…


- Cheers

[Axalon]

Previously in post:422, Stazi wrote....

...could you give us a little insight into the new features/changes of 3rd edition (except already described map changes)?

I decided to do better then that for you (and others interested). I will do a “numbermania contest” in which the numbers will do all the talking here – because regardless what we may think of them – the applied numbers just are what they are and they don’t lie - they are there and will to a significant degree influence, or create, most circumstances of the game. Applied numbers are thus very useful in providing an honest, accurate and ruthless overview of what the internal “character/architecture” really looks like in a game - and ultimately what one can expect from it. Especially for stuff heavily dependent on numbers – just like MTW and things made for/or based upon it. I’ll start easy and get more detailed as we go. That said; let the contest begin… 15 rounds…


MTW vs. Redux!

The Numbermania Contest 1A:
============================


Round 1: Most turns
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 366 total
Redux: 560 total
-
-
Redux wins! Most turns...


R2: Most Factions
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 20 total (all eras)
Redux: 18 total (all used at start up)
-
-
MTW wins! Most factions...


R3: Agents in game
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 12 total (all eras, 15 GFX-wise)
Redux: 09 total (in effect - otherwise 10 and 15 GFX-wise. )
-
-
MTW wins! Most agents…


R4: Tech-Tree buildings
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 103 total or 108 with VI…
Redux: 169 total (active, in effect 165-166 I think)
-
-
Redux wins! Most buildings…


R5: Troops
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 115 or 149* total --- *VI-numbers
Redux: 198 total (active)
-
-
Redux wins! Most Troops…


R6: Unit clusters (default)
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: range: 12, 40, 60, 96, 100 men* = 5 clusters (excluding artillery)
Redux: range: 1, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 20, 24, 40, 60, 80, 100 men* = 12 clusters (excluding artillery)
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity…


R7: Actual variables: Charge bonus
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min 1 --- 8 max = 8 variables /8 used
Redux range: min 1 --- 15 max = 15 variables /10 used
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity…


R8: Actual variables: Attack stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min -2 --- 6 max = 9 variables /9 used
Redux range: min 0 --- 15 max = 16 variables /13 used
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity…


R9: Actual variables: Defence stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min -3 --- 7 = 11 variables /11 used
Redux range: min 0 --- 15 = 16 variables /13 used
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity…


R10: Actual variables: Armour stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min 1 --- 9 max = 9 variables /8 used.
Redux range: min 1 --- 9 max = 9 variables /9 used.
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity in used variables…


R11: Actual variables: Honour stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min -2 --- 12 max = 15 variables /7 used.
Redux range: min 0 --- 10 max = 10 variables /7 used
-
-
MTW wins! Most diversity in variables…


R12: Actual variables: March stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min 4 --- 9 max = 6 variables /3 used
Redux range: min 4 --- 9 max = 6 variables /5 used
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity in used variables…


R13: Actual variables: Run stat
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min 8 --- 24 max = 16 variables /6 used
Redux range: min 7 --- 28 max = 21 variables /20 used
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity...


R14: Unit Cost
--------------------------------------------------
MTW range: min 50 --- 800 max = 750 variables /? used (plenty)
Redux range: min 75 --- 2500 max = 2425 variables /? used (plenty)…
-
-
Redux wins! Most diversity...


R15: Artillery
--------------------------------------------------
MTW: 11 total
Redux: 6 total -
-
-
MTW wins! Most artillery...



Final Results:
============================
MTW: 4 wins
Redux: 11 wins



...So Staz, tell me what you see (as in your conclusions). Whenever ready....

This offer is open to all BTW...

- Cheers

[Stazi]

Thanks for the info. Interesting way of showing the mod features....hmm... What can I say?

The diversity is decisively good. Large quantity of troops and buildings is what I like. I hope most of them are different and distinct from the others. Of course, raw numbers don't tell much about overall quality but it's something I'll have to check by myself.
Reduced artillery - it's not good. I hope you left most useful ones. I love artillery micromanaging. Sometimes I build strong defensive army just to hold enemy long enough to skill up the artillery. Seeing enemy general killed by a bouncing ball - priceless.

btw Charge bonus - I've read somewhere that the range is 0-9. Anything above 9 is considered 9. Is it true?

Is it all about bigger variety of units, buildings and other stuff or there are some new ideas behind those numbers (comparing 3rd to 2nd ed.)?

[Axalon]

Hello Stazi,

The diversity is decisively good.

Agreed... Let me tell you what I see out of a designer-perspective and this might be unpopular to some. Anyway....

The numbers does show that raw MTW can not really keep up or successfully compete with redux in applied and actual diversity in battlefield-simulations – like it or not. On general terms, diversity is good for any game, the more diversity a game has the better it usually is due to being unpredictable and varied - thus interesting for us – that is the rule anyhow… The antonym for it would be evenness/regularity - or “conformity” as I usually call it - and there is little doubt that MTW got more of that then redux does, again the numbers show that with little mercy.

Large quantity of troops and buildings is what I like.

Well that is your privilege… Me not so much…. Why? I fail to see the virtues of quantity as such - while I am a strong believer in the virtue of quality. Troops and buildings etc are no exceptions for me. Why? Because if too many troops or whatever is included in the game with quantity in mind - the distinction-markers/variables will usually be too few to deliver traceable and thus meaningful distinctions for each included part (eg. troops).

When that happens we are forced to re-use variables/numbers and thus we get increased regularity/similarity in the variables of aspect X as a result. The distinctions-apparatus of aspect X thus breaks down and in turn we get gradually weaker and weaker or no distinctions for all parts/troops in this aspect. A sort of conformity develops in the parts/troops as the distinctions get increasingly harder to identify for each new part included in relation to the other, already included parts/troops…. An army of virtual clones appear basically.

16 parts/troops assigned with “3”s in aspect/stat X will never function any better in-game just because we add some 200 more parts and assign “3”s to them as well. It has already exceeded what a conventional range 0-9 can actually handle – in fact it only makes things worse for the game. If the range of distinctions is indeed 0-9 then we got 10 variables, if we include say 12 or more parts to be defined by these variables we are thus forced to rely on other aspects to make all parts truly unique or at least distinct. If the variable-ranges are too small and limited all over the distinctions of things gets increasingly impossible achieve. MTW and Redux are no exceptions.

Of course, raw numbers don't tell much about overall quality but it's something I'll have to check by myself.

Well, they won’t tell anything about GFX true - but they do tell you that it is possible to expect redux to be more diverse and unpredictable in battle then MTW. That is, if we go by the assumption that I do have some clue of what I am doing as I design these things. Either way, you will eventually find out as you try the game.

Reduced artillery - it's not good. I hope you left most useful ones. I love artillery micromanaging. Sometimes I build strong defensive army just to hold enemy long enough to skill up the artillery. Seeing enemy general killed by a bouncing ball - priceless.

…I did forget to mention here that Redux has no gunpowder at all (it has always been like that for redux). That means that MTW only got 4 relevant and comparable artillery pieces – if we want to be fair. Redux got 6, but in effect they are just 4 so “round 15” would then be a “draw”. If we want to be unfair – then MTW still "wins round 15” as specified…

btw Charge bonus - I've read somewhere that the range is 0-9. Anything above 9 is considered 9. Is it true?

Nah, that’s nonsense. Any stat can be set and have effect above 9.

Is it all about bigger variety of units, buildings and other stuff...

No, that’s the “gameplan” of XL essentially… And that “gameplan” comes out of a firm conviction that applied quantity is indeed a quality. I do not share that conviction, I never did. To me Redux is about quality, not quantity. Quality from distinctive capacities and purposes for all parts in the game – that is the plan anyhow. I do that at the expense of quantity. Trying to trim things down as much as possible - "axing" whatever "redundant" stuff I can find that (to me) have no convincing function or place in the game (obviously, I do not do this if it clearly hurts the game). Agents (and factions) in redux are good and obvious examples of that attitude as “round 2” (and 3) shows. I have axed troops as well (and I did scuttle the entire CA unit-roster from MTW. Had I been interested in quantity, I would have kept it). More of this and that in abundance is to me not a viable or good way to secure an interesting game. Pretty much for reasons mentioned above.

…or there are some new ideas behind those numbers (comparing 3rd to 2nd ed.)?

Well, the new numbers does better comply with what I have in mind for Redux – more demanding, diverse and interesting battles essentially (and other numbers creates some corresponding circumstances for the strat-map basically).


So much for my ideas… Other comments? Anybody? Or shall we move on?

- Cheers

[western]

Axalon

Just a thought for the VI version which you mentioned will come at some point

I like the way that Redux brings raiding back. Because it takes longer to build loyalty, very often you take a province but you know you can't hold it. The choice whether to try and hold or to take what you can and get out is therefore a real one as too often it isn't in vanilla and other Mods.

But I wish the game didn't allow you to raze everything to the ground and leave scorched earth. It's a bit of an exploit because AI wouldn't do it. It's also not how Medieval war was waged. So you could just make a rule not to do it and stick by that - but I always prefer to try and build it into the game rather than rely on my restraint.

So with VI you have a small additional option, which is to use the indestructible Forest Clearing building. I remember that MedMod built this in as second or third level in the improved farmland tree, so that once you or the AI had achieved a certain level of improvement that at least could not be taken away. Don't know whether the building can be inserted into any tree (I think I tried with the castle one once and failed) but it would be good if at least something was left standing when the razzia moved on.

I'm getting to grips with 1.1 but I think a VI version will bring a few more players. Playing an old game like MTW is pretty arcane, but playing an early version of an old game is niche to the extreme. Redux deserves a wider audience

[Stazi]

Indestructible Forest Clearing is hardcoded. You can't make other buildings indestructible. Sometimes you really need to destroy something. For example, church of the other faith that stays after you conquered the province. It happens sometimes. The church still spreads other faith and occupies the slot so you can't build your own.

I'm getting to grips with 1.1 but I think a VI version will bring a few more players. Playing an old game like MTW is pretty arcane, but playing an early version of an old game is niche to the extreme. Redux deserves a wider audience

You're right. I think most of the people (like me) nowadays have gold, eras or other editions which have VI built-in.

[gollum]

Religious buildings of other faiths get caught by the autopillage AFAIK, to make space for that factions religious buildings, and that helps teh AI. If you are Catholic and capture an Orthodox province the Orthodox buildings work but now for the Catholic faith and vice versa, so there is no need to pull them down and build your own, That is so for churches, monasteries and Cathedrals of vanilla; i don't know if Redux has more/others, as i haven't played.

[Stazi]

I had a situation that christian church, in a province conquered long ago and surrounded by my provinces, was still spreading catholic faith (I was orthodox). I tried to suppress it by sending priests/bishops but they were able to help only to a certain level. After I destroyed the church the province was fully converted to orthodox in 1 turn. IMO the catholic<>orthodox change not always works as intended.
It's only an example not connected with Redux mod.

[Axalon]

Hi Wes and all others interested in Redux….

Your idea is not bad, I’ll consider it. If I do use it, I will probably do what was already done in Med-Mod – using farmland. 60% or something. Anyhow, if you don’t like razing stuff – then don’t, the choice is yours, as it should be (just like longbows for instance). Regardless, CA is to blame for the general AI-circumstance – not me. I guess the auto-razing is there to supposedly reflect the AI razing stuff while on the warpath.

Anyhow, regarding camels, I’ve decided to grant you the desert-regions to serve as a distinction marker for ‘em. Meaning, all camels will be removed in all non-desert territories in all previous entries in da crus11-file. There… Happy?

I'm getting to grips with 1.1...

Excellent, please assist me here and post up some impressions and experiences with various factions in Redux then. It would probably be very, very useful to me… As it is, I am “driving virtually blind” as I try to get a perspective on things beyond my own. Essentially, experiences and impression as per each relevant faction (primarily the regular ones). Some ideas at the top of my head as in what possible aspects might be interesting here to get you started…

• Unit roster profile… General weaknesses, strengths etc. – if any? Analyze, chart it essentially.
• Tech-tree profile… Is it distinct and different enough? Etc. etc.
• “Uniqueness”… Distinctiveness in factions in general. Etc. etc.
• Starting circumstances… Does it take long/short to get proper “control”? Any instant threats? Etc.
• Economy, start and later… Is it tough enough? Usage of trade or farming, both? Etc.
• Enemy behavior… Predictability… If any? Type of attacks… Land/naval all over the map… Etc.
• Cultural differences... Does it really “feel” different? If so, then how? If not then why? etc.
• Battles…. General experiences, AI-army compositions etc.
• Blitzing…. Is it possible? Is it sustainable?
• Naval-circumstances etc.…
• Rebels and their behavior etc.…
• Superpowers… Changing from game to game? As supposed to? Or are the standard powers?
• Pirates! General experiences, impressions and circumstances. Etc.
• Which faction dies first? Does this change? As supposed to? Any standard or unexpected scenarios?
• Etc. etc. etc. things like that…

I need to know these and such things… I need Intel essentially… If it turns out to be plenty - I’ll set up a dedicated thread for it – if necessary for each relevant faction if need be.

Anybody who has gathered a decent amount of Reduxy XP - as in played multiple campaigns, various factions or specialized in a single faction - are more then welcome to help out.

...I think a VI version will bring a few more players. Playing an old game like MTW is pretty arcane, but playing an early version of an old game is niche to the extreme. Redux deserves a wider audience

Yup… I work bottom up - V1.1 skeleton first then VI. Call me extreme and crazy but that is what I do. VI-stuff will come eventually – no worries.

Redux deserves a wider audience

Well yeah… I think so and I am happy that you do too, but I can only do so much, you know….

I can only offer the game - that is what I do - the rest is up to you guys - the players - because that is your part. If you guys want more people to play Redux, then start preaching the “the bliss and sexiness of Redux” or something of the sort and it might happen. Encourage people elsewhere, far and wide, to actually take that final step to download Redux and try it out – the rest is up them and saint Lassie in the sky.

All I know is that 3rd edition can successfully compete with any comparable stuff done for MTW1 that I have seen and encountered since 2002. I would have never ever bothered to continue working on it if I did not really believe that - it would be insane otherwise. It is as extensive in scale and detail as any other project I have ever seen for MTW1. It is also very different from everything that is comparable enough to it that I have seen. It is among the toughest, if not THE toughest, major alteration publicly available for MTW1 to date, as I understand it (that is not necessarily what everybody else want and like, but it is what I want and like – and hopefully others do too). Short of all that, it is virtually a matter of personal preference and activity - and that is out of my hands.

- Cheers

[Axalon]

And another one…

I had a situation that christian church, in a province conquered long ago and surrounded by my provinces, was still spreading catholic faith (I was orthodox). I tried to suppress it by sending priests/bishops but they were able to help only to a certain level. After I destroyed the church the province was fully converted to orthodox in 1 turn. IMO the catholic<>orthodox change not always works as intended. It's only an example not connected with Redux mod.

Actually Staz, that circumstance is pretty common in Redux – consciously so by design because I like it. To me it serves as a reminder that a province (might) have been once conquered while a small stubborn minority in that province still refuses to conform 100% - unless drastic measures are indeed taken to correct it. Razing a church etc. etc. For those who are historically inclined there are plenty of such circumstances thru out history. I wanted that circumstance to be a part of redux and it is fairly common for all religions in Redux. Technically, I think it is possible to have a circumstance of 2 such minorities at the same time in Redux.

… i don't know if Redux has more/others, as i haven't played.

How to put this…? :)

Quite right…. You have not played Redux.… For over 2 years and counting by now.... And.... Redux still remains as different from MTW - as always. As you would eventually find out – should you ever decide to break your habit to “not played Redux” and actually try it out.


- Cheers
-----------------
No offence Gollum, it was just a too good opportunity to pass on. Please, feel free to try out Redux and join the discussion for real instead. As long as you don’t, you will never be able to fully participate here – after all, this is the redux-area - it certainly helps if you have actually played the game this place is all about.

[gollum]

That took a while, needed to find my spectacles...:)

I promise you never to participate in any reduxy area discussion again until i have played Axalon. Sorry for the intrusion. All the best with it.

Regards

[Trapped in Samsara]

That took a while, needed to find my spectacles...:)

I promise you never to participate in any reduxy area discussion again until i have played Axalon. Sorry for the intrusion. All the best with it.

Regards

Oh don't disappear, Gollum! You add tremendously to the allure of this thread. ;~}

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Axalon]

Do whatever you feel is right Gollum…

----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------


Anyhow, I need Intel…. (and yes, I am serious)

In order to make better decisions as I work with Redux - I need Intel. It’s that simple. I know that at least a few dozens of people have played or do play the beta (arguably at least some of these can and will see this post). I appeal to all of you to help me out on this note. The sooner the better…

I am not asking for a review Redux or anything of the sort – that is hardly the point here. I am merely hoping that at least some of you could be kind enough to help me out and post up your “dry” game-experiences as per faction (and failed/lost campaigns is just a valuable and appreciated as wins) to set my own experiences into proper perspective so I can make good and solid decisions in my continued work with the BETA. That’s all....


Primary faction-experiences of interest: (at this point)

Poland
France
England
Spain
HRE
Italy
Norse

Secondary Factions:

Byzantium
Moors
Saracens


Again, a few possible pointers and suggestions to get you started….

• Which faction have you played (how many times/restarts)? On what difficulty? On what size-setting?
• How does the Redux Beta start-up look like for your faction? Turn 1-50 essentially…
• How does the Redux Beta end-game look like? As you are close to winning/losing?
• Which super-powers emerge and remain as you play? Is there a pattern or is it changing in your campaigns?
• What would you consider to be the strength(s) with your/this faction as you play? If any?
• What would you consider to be the weakness(es) with your/this faction as you play? If any?
• Rebels and pirates, what kind of impact do they have in your game? If any?
• Do different enemy-factions offer different or distinct challenges in battle? Might there be differences in army compositions in such regards? If any?
• What is your grand stratagem/doctrine as you play? Slow defensive advance, fluid raiding or Blitzing etc. etc.… Does it work? Is it sustainable doctrine in the game?
• Other aspects at your discretion, if you like…

Etc. etc. things like that. All I ask is that you at least try to explain your reasoning should it be relevant. And, it does not need to be Shakespeare quality, it just need to be comprehendible so I can actually use the Intel - for obvious reasons. So, hopefully at least some people show up and answer this call – if not, then I can say with good conscience that I certainly tried…

- Cheers

[Axalon]

…And people wonder why my regard for the community is low?

[Axalon]

[Plato]

I have been meaning to write up a preliminary report on the French, having played something over a century. If you want, I have plenty of excuses, but hopefully I'll find the time this week. Appended below.

As I am still playing, will it be safe to upgrade to beta 1001? Would there be any risk to my savegames?

The French - Interim Findings (Beta 1000)

Settings
- Unit Size: Default
- Difficulty: Standard
- Mode: Glorious Achievements
I might have misjudged this, but I was curious as to what this mode might offer. Having started in 700AD, I find points only come into play in 1100AD - I hope to be long finished by then. This was probably a mistake on my part, but it wasn't something that I was strongly steered away from.
No restarts: I've made my bed and I'll lie in it. Also, I was enjoying myself too much.


Start Position
There appear to be a fair few opportunities at the start. The Burgundians stupidly vacate their homeland while attacking Lorraine, allowing me to waltz in. The English lose a lot of regions, particularly in France, to uprisings and I gradually mop those up. The HRE over-extends itself westward: when I defeat their vanguard the provinces behind fall to rebellion, and I leave those as buffer zones. At some point the Lombards try unsuccessfully for Burgundy and get chevaucheed in return.
It is now about 735 and, by and large, peace reigns everywhere until 760.


Mid-game
I've focussed on trade and got fleets around the coast of Europe ("from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic"); net income has been as much as 25,000 florins a turns - so much I'm having difficulty spending it.
Using my fleets I cut the Moors in two by landing in Granada. A few more sea-borne invasions later and they were done for. The Lombards collapsed through not having an heir, so I bribed Genoa and Lombardy to join my realm, and invaded Provence. The Aragonese have also been swallowed up.
I've got to 810AD and the Byzantines have attacked some of my ships - the end-game has commenced.


Superpowers
Only the Byzantines challenge me: I'm the richest and mightiest, they occasionally get technical achievement. It has seemed inevitable, no one else has got a look in and I'm surprised the Saracens have lasted up until now.


Strengths / Weaknesses (of the French)
None. Though after a very virile start the lack of male heirs is beginning to worry me.


Rebels & Pirates
Pirates can be annoying when they interrupt trade routes, but they can gradually be pushed back. I'm not sure of the best way to deal with them; I assume it's a matter of seizing their home provinces. Unfortunately the faction AI doesn't seem particularly interested in going after them (or other rebel regions eg. Ireland and Finland which don't even have armies in them).
Rebels? Certainly at the beginning they felt like some axis of evil or terror network. How else to explain a combined Scots-Italian rebellion in Flanders, or Northumbrians in Sicily? I'm more sanguine about them now.
However, the restiveness of conquered territories gives me cause for concern. Adjusting the tax rate has a predictable effect on the happiness of a province, but in recently-conquered areas even just moving out one unit can cause it to plummet.


Enemies in battle
There are many factions that I have yet to fight but, broadly speaking, they do feel different. However, since it's the same old AI which tends to behave the same, the differences are at the unit level: something I wouldn't pick myself (such as Champions) or something I've not faced before. For a first play it's certainly holding my interest.


Strategy
I'd call it punctuated equilibrium - I'm happy to sit back and develop but try to take opportunities when they arise (or I engineer them) and then try to maintain offensive momentum. It's worked well so far, but is likely to change once the showdown with the Byzantines is in full swing.


Units (French)
Foot Knights and Feudal Footknights feel like a duplication.
The change in units' size with upgrades does jar sometimes, eg. Archers (100) but Feudal Archers (40), Crossbowmen (40) but Frankish Crossbowmen (100).


Units (Other)
Galleys (Byz but probably Rebel also) have a movement range of 3, outpacing my Royal Warships.


Tech Tree
Too much can be achieved at the Castle level of development and, so far as I can see, Fortresses are pointless. Citadels seem only to be worthwhile in regions with iron deposits (for the Metalsmiths Guild upgrade and Order Palace), everything else can be done in Castles. So, despite being the richest, I have little advantage over other factions.
Military Academy appears useless.


Faction Graveyard
The Portugese and the Polish seem to have had the toughest time: both have been extinguished and returned; they were suffering territory-wise anyway, and continue to do so.
Neither the Spanish nor Aragonese have done well, focussing on the rebels in Navarre rather than the Moors. The Spanish succumbed eventually. The Aragonese were notable for spamming Travellers.


General Thoughts
I had misgivings about the unhistorical start; it all seemed too advanced for 700AD. I then realised that a better way to think of it might be as beginning in 980AD and there being two turns in every year.


Crashes
I have had a couple of game freezes. They've occured in the end-of-turn results phase while playing the schiiick-clang sound for reporting some military action. I suspect it to be related to Rebels in someway since the most persistent incident was when I felt I couldn't hold on to Mauritania and moved my army out completely. After I took steps to maintain control and avert an uprising, it didn't give me any more problems.

[Axalon]

Hi, thanks and very interesting Plato….

Hopefully other people find this just as interesting as I do. Despite this stuff is not from a finished campaign, it useful and valuable info all the same (in several ways, and entertaining too). Much obliged for this stuff.

For me, what matters in this context is your (and others) perspectives and experiences as acquired while managing the French crown (or faction X) – thus I guess it is better if I won’t make any detailed comments on this – unless explicitly asked too. Still if anybody else would like to comment somehow on this – feel free to do so. I don’t see any harm in that, and it could be fun and interesting too.

One note however, I would suggest to not focus too much on the supposed period as such – AD 700-1260. It is essentially just a necessary evil due to MTW-hardcoding. To me at least it is just a matter of turns (always were) basically set in some undefined medieval period. The years-concept is already in the dumpster in my mind, and thus any fixed or a certain period and related progression to that is as well. The only “years” I have ever played in TW was in STW1. Anyhow, we got similar problems with the glorious achievements mode – while still technically possible to play it in this state we are no less forced to only receive points at the specified points due to MTW-hardcoding (which certainly screws things up, for me at least).

A general note on citadels and fortresses… These increase and influence stability-, mercenary- and garrison-levels… See file for details…

As I am still playing, will it be safe to upgrade to beta 1001? Would there be any risk to my savegames?

Nope, it should be safe, RXB1001 is supposed to be save-game compatible. Just install and put in the saved games and play on….

- Cheers

[Axalon]

Ok, the links are active…

[naut]

I'll give Poland or Italy a whirl over the next couple days. =)

[western]

Axalon
This isn't the most useful feedback but it's the best I can give you
My son has been playing as the Italians for WEEKS - turtling unless attacked.
Very stable - no crashes or freezes.
The big factions have been the Lithuanians, Byzantines, French, Spanish and Germans. All have waxed and waned while the Saracens have quietly owned the Middle East.
The Byz are the faction that built a big sea empire - then smashed by the Italians, and for ever afterwards they have been reappearing in random parts of the map each time they were wiped out.
The Spanish built huge herd like armies that graze gently over Spain, southern France and North Africa, never really doing anything.
The French, Lithuanians and Germans expanded more steadily and logically until they bumped into the Italians and got their noses bloodied.
One or two factions have gone permanently, but most others have a province or two here or there, not always islands.
No crusades have been witnessed
The game is obviously challenging and entertaining him - I can only think of one other Mod that he played so long - and that was about 5 years ago when he was easily amused!!
I think the killer features for him are (aside from stability) the variety of units - he had an army of champions at one point - the difficulty of permanently destroying factions (if you're not careful, raiding them only causes loyalist revolts that bring them back even stronger) and the challenge of trying to maintain a trade network since there's always at least one faction or rebels pumping out ships.
For my part, I'm a rotten beta tester because I start tweaking straight away. So on a parallel installation, I turned the Portuguese into the Fatimids (in their original base of Tunisia) and set off to conquer Egypt. I did that OK, but the Italians not only invaded Tunisia and beat off my various attempts to expel them - they then followed my track to Egypt gobbling up each of my provinces en route and knocking me out of the game. I like it when the AI acts as though it knows what it is doing!
Be assured though, if I ever find a bug I check that it's there on the original installation and not something I've imported
I'll keep my eyes open on the new version now

[Axalon]

Hi guys….

I'll give Poland or Italy a whirl over the next couple days. =)

Please do... :)
...


Wes, all Intel is welcome and appreciated here…

Overall it is an “I’ll take what I can get”-circumstance and your stuff remains interesting and useful to me at least. And the same thing applies as already stated on Platos experiences – I suspect that it is for the better if I refrain from making detailed remarks on this stuff (unless asked too) - while I see no problems if others do comment on these things (and it is more fun).

For my part, I'm a rotten beta tester because I start tweaking straight away. So on a parallel installation, I turned the Portuguese into the Fatimids (in their original base of Tunisia) and set off to conquer Egypt. I did that OK, but the Italians not only invaded Tunisia and beat off my various attempts to expel them - they then followed my track to Egypt gobbling up each of my provinces en route and knocking me out of the game. I like it when the AI acts as though it knows what it is doing! Be assured though, if I ever find a bug I check that it's there on the original installation and not something I've imported

On general terms, things will probably brighten up for you, and all people like you, as I intend to eventually set up a special and dedicated area for “Alternative versions” of Redux. Thus making this place relevant and attractive for such people too. I’ll do that when most things (errors, bugs and uncertainties) have been sorted out and the general frame, details and mechanics etc. etc. of Redux is more or less established and determined.

After that, I’ll set up a dedicated corner here just for people like you – who can’t help themselves but to make changes in Redux somehow on whatever level – using it as the platform it is intended to be. That way, all such people get a chance to discuss and share their stuff and additional material as they please with likeminded people while it still does not get confused with the regular version of Redux – which is critical, for obvious reasons (as experience have shown on several occasions). However, I must first establish the basic version of Redux first - before all that happens.

In case you have left the unit-roster and AI-settings intact, feel free to provide Intel on battle-experiences and AI-army compositions and such if you like. I could use that too.

I'll keep my eyes open on the new version now

Please do...


- Cheers

[Marku]

downloading this mod now :)

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi Axalon

Long Easter weekend coming up, immediately followed by May Day + royal wedding weekend. Woohoo! (I'm not a fan of the monarchy, but thanks for the extra day off work, Wills and Katie.) So a MTW - read Redux - fest is in the offing chez moi. The beer, pizza, coffee and cigarettes are on order.

Dowloading the 1001 + VI module files right now. Looking forward to enjoying the fruits of your hard work and skills. Big thanks.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace