Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[Foot]

No, the marian legionnaires are actually a load of polybian principes. They certainly aren't hastati.

If it has the same unit name then it is the same unit, regardless of what shield design it has. Each unit is assigned a model and each model as 22 different texture paths (each faction, slave and merc).

Foot

[||Lz3||]

I think I remember reading that statwise the marian legionaries are the same as polybian hastatii , and that they are inferior to polybian princeps one vs one... but they overcome this problem by being more of them in a same unit (160 princeps/ 200 legionaries)

[satalexton]

yea thats wt i meant ^^; and also the reason y i hated the marian reforms... I never field more than 3 armies as Romani no matter what, so they tend to be really experianced too (i only merge, yes it takes a lot of battles...) therefore, it simply drives me nuts that i have train these buggers from ground up, n they're much harder to toughen up cuz stat-wise they're equal to the polybian hastati...

[Foot]

Have you guys checked the stats? I mean seriously, do just mouth off without checking the facts. Principes have 2 higher armour, buts all they are better in. mental_stat they are worse. Formation they are worse. And the legionnaires are better than hastati in at least three different areas. mental_stat, armour and formation. So wtf?! Reformata are Principes minus 2 points of armour, plus better morale.

;238
type             roman infantry hastati
dictionary       roman_infantry_hastati      ; Hastati
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_hastati_principes, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -1, -3
stat_mental      13, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1066, 267, 50, 70, 1066
ownership        seleucid, slave

;241
type             roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i      ; Cohortes Reformata
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

;247
type             roman infantry principes
dictionary       roman_infantry_principes      ; Principes
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_hastati_principes, 40, 0, 1.18
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, mercenary_unit, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  12, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -3
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1185, 296, 50, 80, 1185
ownership        seleucid, slave

Foot

[satalexton]

but they die like flies when compared to my polybian troops by the time the reform pops in...it usually takes more than 30 years for me to fully 'upgrade' my legions with marian troops...it's a sad sight to see my silver 2 chev principes being phased out... =[ I dun retrain, so it takes a bloody long time for my legions to gain experience...

[Aemilius Paulus]

What the...? Why do Camillian Hastati and Principes have the same morale?!? That cannot be accurate! Hastati were the younger, poorer (although richer than the Accensi, Leves, or Rorari), and less experienced recruits, compared to the older, wealthier, and veteran Principes.

[satalexton]

not really, during that period, what you fight as really just depends on what you can afford =/

[Foot]

Firstly, its polybian hastati and principes, secondly they don't have the same morale. Principes are highly_trained and Hastati are simply trained. Why do people jump to conclusions? If you don't understand the ins and outs of the stating system its really difficult to comprehend what is going on and how that effects the units in the game.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

I do understand that "highly_trained" means that they will lose morale slower and regain it faster than "trained", but shouldn't the Principes also start out with higher morale?

[||Lz3||]

I stated that 1vs1 a polybian principii would beat a legionaire... and moral doesn't matter in that case, does it?

still legionaires are better overall as a unit than princeps...

but casualty wise I think you would loose more legionaires than princeps given the fact that they have lower armor. (all of this before routing, legionaires are harder to rout...)

[Foot]

You also said that "statwise the marian legionaries are the same as polybian hastatii", which is blatantly false if one actually takes the time to check facts. But its so much easier to go with the rest of the crowd and complain about the stats for roman units.

As for armour, we work off a very strict table. If the reformata lose a bit of equipment that would offer them an armour bonus compare to the principes then that will show up. If the reformata are equipped with armour that is of a lower quality or quantity then its not something that can be blamed on us, blame the historical marian reforms.

Foot

[konny]

I do understand that "highly_trained" means that they will lose morale slower and regain it faster than "trained", but shouldn't the Principes also start out with higher morale?

No. Green troops are often more eager to fight than blooded ones, in particular when talking of not professional soldiers.

[||Lz3||]

well I did say "if I remember"... I appologize still, I didn't had the stats at hand at that moment.

and at no moment I complained , I'm sorry if it seems as if I had , I understand the reasons of that decision, and in no way I blame the EB team...

[The General]

That's right, I am THAT greedy.

That's right, you-

Actually, I have changed my opinion by now and I do agree that the Augustan reforms should be removed, regardless of whether it'll benefit the Romani or not.

Wait, what?

Blergh, at whom shall I shout now, then?

[Aper]

It would be a shame to see them go, but their unit slots will be used up by units that will have more uses than just "being in the game"...

It is fun to have them but really not worth using up limited space that can be put to better use.

I agree with this guy.

EDIT : doh!, I forgot I have already voted!!!!!

[a completely inoffensive name]

I want to make this absolutely clear. This thread is entirely speculation from fans and there is no official position from the team on this. Do not confuse lots of posts with what will occur in EBII.

Foot

Seriously Foot, is this poll even making an impact on the decision of the EB team? Because if they feel that removing the Augustian Reforms would be unhistorical, then I see little reason why they would remove it, even if the fans are 54% to 36% in favor of removing the reforms for more troop variety in the ten new factions.

[Atilius]

... is this poll even making an impact on the decision of the EB team?

It's useful for us to know what EB players think, but often a decision on an issue depends on considerations that only the development team is aware of. That means these discussions often completely miss the point.

[Cybvep]

Actually, the differences between the units in the Roman Army are rather small. Generally, EB unit stat system is good, although completely not designed to work properly with experience bonuses, but in this case there are some things which just don't seem right.

Let's just analyze two essential units in Polybian army - hastati and principes. Principes have 3 armor points more (+), tire quickier (heat 5 vs 3) and are worse in forests (-2 vs -1 penalty... It hardly means anything, but anyway...). They are also "highly_trained", while hastati are "trained", which means that princeps have a little better formation. However, there are no changes to discipline (both are "disciplined") or morale (both have 13). There are no changes to attack or lethality (11 and 0.13), either. Also, cost is almost the same (1185 vs 1066). Some of those things are strange. Principes are supposed to be experienced soldiers, while hastati should be young and unexperienced. It's not very evident in their stats.

Cohortes Reformata are more or less fine, mostly because they have more men in the unit (200 vs 160). It's quite a difference, which makes lack of significant changes in other stats (attack, lethality) and worse armor (12 vs 10) "not that hard" to swallow. There is also a small morale bonus (+1), which is always nice. However, they cost much more (1790 vs 1185) and you could argue that principes are more cost efficient.

Hopefully, the situation will improve in EB2.

[Victor1234]

Not to restart the previous discussion of the current unit stats, but to get back to the original point, has the EB team decided one way or another about whether they will remove the Augustan reforms?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I totally forgot about this thread, and now I am immensely interested if the EB team has made a decision or not after 2 months.

[Atilius]

We have a great deal of work to do and there is no pressing reason for us to consider the issue yet. Aside from a very brief and inconclusive discussion among the Romani team members, we really haven't thought about it. We could conceivably release a beta before there is any need to make a decision on this subject.

[Megas Methuselah]

We have a great deal of work to do and there is no pressing reason for us to consider the issue yet. Aside a very brief and inconclusive discussion among the Romani team members, we really haven't thought about it. We could conceivably release a beta before there is any need to make a decision on this subject.

That's right, Atilius. Don't let those guys bother you, or influence any decisions the EB Team may make. Do whatever you deem fit.

[antisocialmunky]

I always felt that it was too hard to get and when you did it, it was too abupt. Perhaps you should model some sort of instability in the Republic via a series of event triggers(Pop-up a couple of 'This man is becoming too powerful' warnings each time becoming more urgent sounding) that would logically lead up to the 'council of nobles'/Senate giving you a mission to assassinate the offender or risk the whole empire falling apart. When this happens, give him a trait that basically makes him easier to assassinate(or tack on this 'bonus' to the 'seize power' trait or whatever it is.

This would give you the following options:
- Preserving the Republic by killing him. This lets you keep the game as is.

- Send him to Rome. This represents the Caesar/Sulla route. I'm curious as to whether or not you could make everything in Italy go rebel and spawn a few large stacks when the guy crosses the Rubicon or whatever. If not, you could just set the recruitment pool in Italy to zero and spawn a few large stacks. This would pretty much do the same thing and I know this is doable since Stainless Steel messes with pools and you guys made that Boli script. Plus it would depict him being welcomed by the people but not those in power.

- Do nothing and let the mission expire. This represents a full scale and protracted civil war. This causes happiness to slowly drop in Romanized Provinces where there are members of other Roman families. You might want to set the movement of these guys if they are in cities to zero as well as set the recruitment pool to zero in those places. Still trigger the Italian armies when the guy enters Italy. Terminate script when he gets to Rome.

Not sure how historical that is but it would be pretty sweet to see.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You can't assassinate your own generals in M2tw.

[antisocialmunky]

That's too bad, it is a little gamey if you have to suicide him against some pikes.

[Megas Methuselah]

I don't play M2TW too often, so I'm not too aquainted with its triggers, but how's this: He goes to Rome no matter what, and you somehow get the option to support him or resist him (by gathering an army in the provinces, ala Brutus & Cassius).

However, I completely oppose any new units that would come from this reform. Rome takes enough unit slots as it is.

[theoldbelgian]

mmh i agree on one premise, other factions would have to have this too, for example a character with low loyalty and high influence and a king with low authority and influence, you can then choose to support them

[Megas Methuselah]

Nice.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Let this thread die for another couple months before bringing it back.

[Pontius Pilate]

one last thing. I think the Augustan Reforms should be in the game if the team still decides to have the start and end dates still 272BC-14AD, because for the simple reason that the reforms were used in this time period. The roman republic didn't last until 14AD. If the start and end dates change, then I can see a reasonably reason to exclude the imperial troops. I don't think the Camillian troops should be removed though, because that would seriously reduce the Romani's factional troop selection by too much. and if the imperial units were to be removed, which faction would get the unit slots?