The Islam Thread...

[AlexanderSextus]

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

[AlexanderSextus]

Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Violence towards "people of the book"

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Did Jesus have the power to raise an army? If so, why didn't he?

I think that Jesus did have that power, but Jesus chose not to, because the message of Jesus was one of tolerance and peace.

[AlexanderSextus]

From the Hadiths:

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

[AlexanderSextus]

Like I said, The Bible is violent also...but there is one big difference. For Example:

Deuteronomy 20:10-17 -"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes"

Except for the part about sparing women and children, this sounds similar to a verse from the Qur'an:

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, and afterward they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. (Sura 17:16)

The Biblical passage is not an open-ended command, but instead, a story of history bound within the text.
This was a specific command, given at a specific time to the tribe of Israel concerning a discrete target. This is why Christians and Jews do not treat these verses as present-day imperatives.

Contrast this with the actual words of Muhammad:

[Allah's Apostle said] "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." (Bukhari 52:256)

Not only are these Muhammad�s own words, but there are many Muslims at this very moment who are trying to kill Jews in Israel. Their religious leaders quote this passage to inspire them.


Also, i will repost a hadith so it is clear, that while the bible verse says to spare pagan women and children, Islam actualy does the opposite.

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

[Banquo's Ghost]

Unsurprisingly, the thread is veering close to trolling for provocative effect. Let's see if we can have a discussion on Islam without that actually happening. Please be aware that people's personal faiths deserve respect as well as examination.

AlexanderSextus, it is usually considered good form in the Backroom to post the link to your sources rather than cut and paste opinions which you then present as your own. Either that or spend the time editing the original material to replicate the spelling mistakes and grammatical errors that tend to show up in your own words.



Thank you kindly.

[Tribesman]

This could be fun .
I suppose I could ask Alexadersextus to give us a laugh and reveal his source of "wisdom" but I am sure enough people can remember people previously using it and having their "wisdom" revealed for what it is .
I suppose I could ask why Alexandersextus doesn't know his Christian scripture very well and has such massive gaps in his knowledge of Christian history .
Then again I suppose I should really go to work and see if he will actually be able to defend the tripe he posted by the time I decide to come home again .

[KarlXII]

and be treated as less of an absolute by society

[JR-]

explain?

you like the idea of the immutable word of god, uninterpretable by man due to its divine origin?

[Viking]

he didnt but i really doubt he would have because his message was to love everyone, even your enemies, so raising an army would have been against his entire message.

But it would not have been so much in disharmony with a certain Bible excerpt posted by you later. Did God™ change his omnipotent mind?

[KarlXII]

explain?

you like the idea of the immutable word of god, uninterpretable by man due to its divine origin?

I seem to have misquoted.

I seem to have read "absolute" as "equal".

Apologies.

[Paradox]

Same with Islam, people had the freedom of choosing their beliefs and usually welcomed Muslims as liberators during the wars against Sassanid Persia and the Byzantines. Nobody's throat was cut off, they were just tempted to convert by the preachers and population, it was the influence of Islam around the penninsula.

[rory_20_uk]

And those that changed their minds?

[JR-]

I seem to have misquoted.

I seem to have read "absolute" as "equal".

Apologies.

dim prob. :)

[Sigurd]

To better understand religion is indisputably a good basis for a thread. And I usually participate because I like the topic. To scrutinize certain points of doctrine or tradition in a religion is also something that should be tolerated.
We need to be careful that we do not enter into the realm of slander or quoting publications from organizations with a sinister agenda.
Religion is IMO good for some and will lead to happiness. But this is as long as they are content with living their religion in peace; to stay within the borders of their faith. Religion should be peaceful as long as those who live it accept and tolerate other faiths. The danger comes when the religion states: We have the only right religion. All the other are false. The danger comes when people with “good hearts” wants to save the people believing in false religion. No-one likes to hear that their childhood faith is wrong or is of the devil. This creates friction and lead to all sorts of misery that the history is full of.
People should be free to live their religion. I see no problem with religion in government as long as there is no punishment beyond excommunication for not abiding the rules of that religion. I see no problem with spreading the word of a religion as long as it refrains from claiming to be the only true religion and you are going to hell if you don’t join. It should just be informative and “this is what we believe, join us if you like it and want to live it”.

To proselytize with the intent of destroying another religion is something I do not like. And I am not talking about exposing those cases where con-men are behind a religion taking advantage of trusting followers.
I am talking about the anti-Catholic, anti-Mormon, anti-Islam campaigns of certain small organizations. IMHO those are just extreme cases of: “We are right, the others are wrong and will go to hell for it”. This is nothing other than extremism in its true sense. Extremism is lack of faith. I have said it before: Those who lack the faith that the tenets or documented steps to gain salvation are not enough, seek other means to redeem themselves. They invent new steps that they hope will result in salvation. They feel the need to do something extra, to gain points with their God. The Extremists can be found in every religion and might be the cause of immaturity. They or those that taught them their faith, didn’t quite get the message; they feel there is something missing and adds to it. The original is found wanting and becomes something else: usually to something extreme. The extremists are usually a minority within their faith, which is a good indicator that they are taking steps away from the core faith.


I am derailing here. We should refrain from using material that is created to destroy. It is counter productive.

[rory_20_uk]

Religions that prosper generally have a convert or kill approach to others - else how are they going to increase their numbers? Religions that are evolutionary unfit die out to those that are stronger.

[AlexanderSextus]

I didnt post the verses from the quran and hadiths in order to slander islam, i posted them so i could see what counterpoints would be presented by muslim orgahs.

oh, and i got the quotes from www.thereligionofpeace.com...I thought it was an Anti-Islam site when i first came upon it but i read their faq, which says that the entire purpose of the site is that they, and i quote; "...just want the killing to stop." Also, all the stuff i posted had links that showed exactly where out of the quran or hadiths they got it from. The links bring you to an online quran at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/.

Seriously...its not a hate site. They said this:

"Thousands of people are losing their lives, and tens of thousands more are suffering various and egregious physical injuries because the Qur'an says that non-Muslims are hated by Allah and that violence is sanctioned whenever there is resistance to Islamic dominance. Exposing this teaching and documenting its terrible effects does not make us a hate site.

We are very explicit in stating that it is wrong to stereotype or pre-judge Muslim individuals, much less to harass or harm them. But, we also do not believe that the delicate and petulant sensibilities of members of the Religion of Peace have precedence over the awful violence committed in its name each and every day."

[AlexanderSextus]

But it would not have been so much in disharmony with a certain Bible excerpt posted by you later. Did God™ change his omnipotent mind?

Apparently he must have.

[Paradox]

Site's blocked here...

Could you give me a link to some of the violent verses you mentioned earlier?

[Fragony]

But, we also do not believe that the delicate and petulant sensibilities of members of the Religion of Peace have precedence over the awful violence committed in its name each and every day."

Lol said it exactly the same this very thread, yep, please forgive us westeners for noticing it.

[Tristuskhan]

www.thereligionofpeace.com

This site gives me headaches.... Lots of features are really odd. It seems rather unreliable. Some native english speaker should investigate.

A good source about Islam is Abelwahab Meddeb, a franco-tunisian scholar who has a fine vision of Islam, both of it's religious evolution and political issues, but everything I found about him is in french. The reform some were talking about on previous posts is already growing, but the voices are scarce and hard to hear.

[Hax]

AlexanderSextus, you have no real experience when it comes to Muslims. Your fear comes through ignorance, not by knowing a few verses. If you did know any true muslims, your view would change significantly. Also, I think you are looking at the wrong sites, as they are clearly biased.

Concerning the Hell in Islam:

One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as Allah willeth." for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge."

This is considered to be very important, seeing that in Christianity, the Hell is a place where you will stay until all eternity to suffer and burn and scream and choke until forever and ever.

[Tribesman]

Site's blocked here...

Is it one of those that is widely blocked for being a hate site by any chance Just like a whole pile of those on its links section are widely blocked as hate sites .

Seriously...its not a hate site. They said this:

Yeah and North Korea is a peoples paradise and democratic country because they say so

[AlexanderSextus]

AlexanderSextus, you have no real experience when it comes to Muslims. Your fear comes through ignorance, not by knowing a few verses. If you did know any true muslims, your view would change significantly. Also, I think you are looking at the wrong sites, as they are clearly biased.

Concerning the Hell in Islam:

One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as Allah willeth." for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge."

This is considered to be very important, seeing that in Christianity, the Hell is a place where you will stay until all eternity to suffer and burn and scream and choke until forever and ever.

Not Necessarily.... apparently, the Gospel of Peter (which is one the vatican conveniently chose to leave out) says that all the inhabitants of hell will be freed if the inhabitants of heaven will ask god to release them.

To scrutinize certain points of doctrine or tradition in a religion is also something that should be tolerated.

Like I said, I do know true muslims. Some of them are my best friends. Like that guy Ibrahim that i talked about earlier...I go to Kung Fu class with him every week. It's not them i'm worried about. its the violent parts of the Quran that they are supposed to live by.

If i am taking the verses out of context, then please explain what i have misinterpreted.

Sure, the site may or may not be biased, but whos to say that if i went to a site that said the quran was not at all violent, that it would'nt also be biased???


If i post something Biased towards a particular view, like what i posted earlier, it's because i want you to prove it wrong, next time i'll remember to say that, as i almost pissed some people off it seems.

[AlexanderSextus]

Is it one of those that is widely blocked for being a hate site by any chance Just like a whole pile of those on its links section are widely blocked as hate sites .


Yeah and North Korea is a peoples paradise and democratic country because they say so

Let me repost it one more time.

"Thousands of people are losing their lives, and tens of thousands more are suffering various and egregious physical injuries because the Qur'an says that non-Muslims are hated by Allah and that violence is sanctioned whenever there is resistance to Islamic dominance. Exposing this teaching and documenting its terrible effects does not make us a hate site.

We are very explicit in stating that it is wrong to stereotype or pre-judge Muslim individuals, much less to harass or harm them. But, we also do not believe that the delicate and petulant sensibilities of members of the Religion of Peace have precedence over the awful violence committed in its name each and every day."


The site even states that it is STRONGLY AGAINST hate towards muslims.

One of the parts of their FAQ is as follows:

What opinions should I form about my Muslim neighbor,
co-worker or friend from your site?

Absolutely none.

Judge a person only by his or her own words and deeds - and nothing else.

(Actually, this isn't a question that we've ever been asked, but we did want to reinforce the point that every Muslim is an individual and shouldn't be thought differently of merely because of their religion).

[AlexanderSextus]

oh, and fahad, the violent parts are these verses...look them up in your home copy, maybe you can tell me if i'm taking them out of context.

Sura (2:191-193)

Sura (8:15)

Sura (9:29)

Sura (9:30)

Sura (25:52) apparently, when this verse says "Strive against" it is talking about Jihad, and not the spiritual one either.

Hadiths:

Bukhari (52:177)

Muslim (1:33)

Muslim (20:4645)

Tabari 7:97

[Tribesman]

If i am taking the verses out of context, then please explain what i have misinterpreted.

Ah I see , lets put this in simple terms , that site and many on its links page use quotes and translations from a very eminent scholar of Islam . It really makes their sites seem well established in fact and thoroughly researched .
Yet they never quote what his actual conclusions are , only the bits that they can take and use to push their message .
And the conclusion of this scholar whose work they are so fond of selectively using ..... terrorism can only be justified under the teachings of Islam by mistranslation , taking out of context and misrepresentation of those teachings .
So what you are posting as "reliable" information is actually not just a misrepresentation , it is a misrepresentation of a misrepresentation .
Now in my book that doesn't mean that what you have posted is just bollox , its a whole big pile of bollox
edit to add ..BTW did you realise that some of those links are actually to terrorist supporting sites , not Muslim terrorists of course but terrorists who claim to be followers of other religions .

[Tribesman]

Let me repost it one more time.

"Thousands of people are losing their lives, and tens of thousands more are suffering various and egregious physical injuries because the Qur'an says that non-Muslims are hated by Allah and that violence is sanctioned whenever there is resistance to Islamic dominance. Exposing this teaching and documenting its terrible effects does not make us a hate site.

Oh dear
Stop it please
you are killing me

Have you even stopped to consider how all that tripe you cut and pasted was instantly identified ?
Religion of Peace , Jihad watch , Dhimmi watch and Prophet of doom have been thoroughly trashed and debunked on this forum so many times its quite comical when someone still tries to cite them as a source of information.

[HoreTore]

Yes, AlexanderSextus, it's not a hate site because they say so, just like North Korea is democratic because they say so.



In the real world however, North Korea is a brutal tyranny, and that site is a perfect example of hate. Anyway, Tribesey can explain it to you a lot better(and funnier) than I care to do

[Paradox]

oh, and fahad, the violent parts are these verses...look them up in your home copy, maybe you can tell me if i'm taking them out of context.

Sura (2:191-193)

Sura (8:15)

Sura (9:29)

Sura (9:30)

Sura (25:52) apparently, when this verse says "Strive against" it is talking about Jihad, and not the spiritual one either.

1. These verses basically say: Fight back. Nothing wrong with it, the message here is to not leave the religion of Islam vulnerable to those who are against it.

2. Irrelevant, it talks about respect in the mosque.

3. (9:18) I can see how this part can be taken out of context. A long time ago, Muslims were often killed by non-believers, strangely, they sometimes got away with it if they pay a tax. When they don't, that's where the violence starts. It also says that those who do not believe in god are enemies of god, did you not already know this?

4. I'm having a hard time translating this one, there are some big words used in the Qur'an that we don't use today, like latin. I'll ask someone to translate it later. It probably refers to the Arab Polytheists who were against Islam.