"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
So... What's the fundamental difference between risking your life to save your own child compared your adopted child?
Is there any emotional difference?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Is there a difference for being protective of your genes?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
So is one action more altruistic than the other?
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Human race is prone to egoism but capable of altruism....
Altruism is just another form of egoism. Everything, every single act, every single breathing moment, is egoism. Of course, egoism isn't a very appropriate word given the tone it bears; perhaps self-interest would be better.
It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.
- Dylan Moran
The Play
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
A direct realization of our true nature will reveal that the "human race" is essentially an illusion and the byproduct of this direct realization will be a natural movement of Altruism. On the other hand, a denial of our true nature will yield a belief in the "human race" and the inevitable result of that belief will be an uncompromising movement of Egoism.
..
Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said, "The flag is moving."
The other said, "The wind is moving."
The Sixth Patriarch of Zen happened to be passing by. He told them, "The wind is not moving, the flag is not moving; mind is moving."
Modern civilization is a vast conspiracy against silence
I'm afraid disagreeing sort of goes against what we today know about humanity.
What is thinly rationalized in this context? Biological evidence? The selfish gene drives us ever onwards. The survival of our own genes and, secondly, our species is what motivates us all and what keeps us breathing. We are, after all, biological machines like all other animals. Where one draws the line for "martyrdom" is another interesting aspect, but let's say someone sacrifices him/herself to save ten other people. This will indeed be considered a heroic deed, especially by the survivors, and the martyr probably never considered that after all, the only reason why he made this utilitarian sacrifice was because ten members of the own species can do more than one. On a subconscious level (possibly conscious as well of course) he was only acting to favour those who, in a pre-programmed world of instincts, were the ones who would raise his children, care for him as he got older and secure the survival of the species.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Exactly. And the only reason why older members of the now vast human flock is allowed to live on, even when they've become too old to provide themselves with food, is the knowledge they (hypothetically) possess and will/ought to pass on to younger generations. In modern Westworld, this keeping of the "old and helpless" has resulted in a situation were genetical programming conflicts with necessity and utility: We want to keep our grand-grandparents, even when they're 90+, senile and incapable of recognizing even their loved ones, even though through very rational and evolutionary thinking; we should just let them pass on.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
I'm sorry, but you'll have to elaborate on that. It seems fetched out of thin air to me.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.
- Dylan Moran
The Play
We'll, I'd give up my life just as quickly for my adopted puerto rican brother as I would for my biological northern European brother. The disbelief in altruism is for young cynics who don't want to believe in it, in spite of evidence right in front of them. Some may rationalize their altruistic feelings as "biological and genetic selfishness", but in the end, you are dead so that another may live - I'd bet that most of the people "died for" were unrelated to the martyr.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-07-2008 at 15:21.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
What does that prove? In your mind they are equal; that one is properly genetically tied to you and that the other is only imaginary so apparently doesn't effect your behaviour, which only serves to prove that we strive to protect our loved ones (ie. our genes, superficial or not).
On the contrary, I'd say that the belief in altruism is for naive people who can't accept the fact that they are, after all, only acting in self interest.
What evidence?
Yes, that's what I suggested in the hypothetical scenario described above. They're still members of your species, and you can, at least in your mind, benefit from keeping your own species as safe as possible. You and your genes come first; then friends, associates, co-workers etc; then your neighbourhood and/or community; then your culture and your people (however you define that); then your species. If we didn't have these pre-programmed thoughts on survival we wouldn't have gotten very far.
It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.
- Dylan Moran
The Play
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