Battle balance

[a completely inoffensive name]

Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.

So, what would be the point in flanking them from behind if they just break out of their rigid formation? Kind of a lose-lose situation facing against phalanxes then.

[Pontius Pilate]

Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.

Interesting. I think that seems realistic. It would only seem logical for the soldiers in the back to stop and defend themselves.

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah. It's nice to hear even though this was posted several weeks ago and ACIN just had to necro this thread...

[Pontius Pilate]

Yeah. It's nice to hear even though this was posted several weeks ago and ACIN just had to necro this thread...

?? well it's never too late to add some positive feedback! and I probably wouldn't have seen this info if someone didn't revive the thread today.

[Megas Methuselah]

Well, that's one way of looking at ****, I suppose!

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yeah. It's nice to hear even though this was posted several weeks ago and ACIN just had to necro this thread...

I necro'd this for a good reason, I had a legit question.

So, what would be the point in flanking them from behind if they just break out of their rigid formation? Kind of a lose-lose situation facing against phalanxes then.

Seriously, if they switch to swords as soon as they are out flanked, there is no real benefit from flanking them and phalanx armies become way too O.P. in my opinion.

[Megas Methuselah]

Seriously, if they switch to swords as soon as they are out flanked, there is no real benefit from flanking them and phalanx armies become way too O.P. in my opinion.

Dude, are you sure they meant the whole formation switches to swords? It could just be individual soldiers who are being personally assaulted who drop their pikes and use swords, not the formation as a whole.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Could be, but usually when a soldier is attacked, the whole unit adapts to the new threat not just individual soldiers.

[Megas Methuselah]

Could be, but usually when a soldier is attacked, the whole unit adapts to the new threat not just individual soldiers.

So, you're saying that if I were in the front row of a phalanx fendind off a frontal assault with my pike, I'd drop my pike and take out my sword because the other side of the formation is being assaulted?! Not only would that endanger me as an individual, as I would be more exposed to danger from my more immediate enemies in front of me, but that would only further endanger the whole unit, which would lose its primary advantage in its pikes.

The phalanx, which would previously be exposed only from the flank(s) and rear, would thus be exposed to assaults from all sides of the formation.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I was talking about the Rome/M2TW engine not in actual RL.

[Megas Methuselah]

Ok, kool. I need some clarification here. What exactly happens when a phalanx/pike unit in M2TW is flanked?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ok, kool. I need some clarification here. What exactly happens when a phalanx/pike unit in M2TW is flanked?

Well, if it is like Rome, the entire formation tries to turn and have the pikes face the new/greater threat.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well, if it is like Rome, the entire formation tries to turn and have the pikes face the new/greater threat.

...if the formation is not already engaged in the front.

Oh, and Mike & Meth, please try not to spam all these threads with conversation between just the two of you. even if they are on topic.

[General Appo]

Oh, and Mike & Meth, please try not to spam all these threads with conversation between just the two of you. even if they are on topic.

A bit of a contradiction there, don´t you think? Spamming...on-topic.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...if the formation is not already engaged in the front.

I many time have had phalanxes that are engaged on the front (by hastati) try to turn 180 degrees to the bigger threat (triari) and stand there reforming with their pikes in the air shifting the formation. I use BI and Battle Formations if that makes any difference in how the AI would react.

[bovi]

A bit of a contradiction there, don´t you think? Spamming...on-topic.

It's a reaction to the spamming spree that they did in numerous threads yesterday. I think I deleted over a hundred posts that added nothing, or if it did it was offensive. I allowed the posts here (and certain others in other threads) to remain though, as they actually added something. Back-and-forth is okay in my book, as long as it's not inane crap said just to say anything.

[Megas Methuselah]

...I allowed the posts here (and certain others in other threads) to remain though, as they actually added something. Back-and-forth is okay in my book, as long as-

Cheers!

Well, if it is like Rome, the entire formation tries to turn and have the pikes face the new/greater threat.

Yeah, I always hated that about Rome, but look a page back on this same thread and you'll find this:

Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.

Now, I myself don't have M2TW on my computer, so I can't really test this out (naturally). However, Bozoz doesn't really complete his statement, i.e. He doesn't state if the formation as a whole switches to swords or only if individual soldiers being privately assaulted switch to swords. I'm hoping someone will come by the courage to answer this...

[Cute Wolf]

but in M2TW, pikemen tends to overpowered fom the front, even with their 6 attack scots pike militia... capable to rip apart english armoured sergeants from the front...

[bovi]

Huh? My pikemen were slaughtered by any unit. Or perhaps that is because I used them in the Americas campaign.

[Cute Wolf]

@Bovi
In americas, yes... these aztec freaks (chuahchiqueh and temple guards) are strong infantry that fearless for death... in English and teutonics, they can present a strong front, even with scots militiamen... but they will be devastated with a cavalry attack with swords (not charge!) from the rear... as they are poor swordsmen... (except scots noble pike militia and noble pikemen). in EB II, should they lower their pike attack status to let the legionaries enter the fray from the front?!? maybe it was fun, but at least I still prefer to had an a bit overpowered pike formations, because it will "almost historically" bring the diadochis their fatal military mistake by too relied on pike phalanx formations.

I saw the EB II video and I just want to say, is it true in that video they had only 3 ranks presents their pikes to enemies?

[theoldbelgian]

the thing about the whole phalanx unit dropping their sarissas is correct but also the thing where they don't do that is also correct, I've had this one time when on an enemy plaza there was a unit phalangitai deuteroi , I positioned my pezhetaroi in the front in phalanx mode butt when i tried to attack they all dropped their pikes and attacked with their swords, luckily my phalangitai deuteroi who where flanking did their job correct
on the other side I have flanked mak phalanxes with Spartans on several occasions and they never did the drop pike thing

[Megas Methuselah]

the thing about the whole phalanx unit dropping their sarissas is correct but also the thing where they don't do that is also correct, I've had this one time when on an enemy plaza there was a unit phalangitai deuteroi , I positioned my pezhetaroi in the front in phalanx mode butt when i tried to attack they all dropped their pikes and attacked with their swords, luckily my phalangitai deuteroi who where flanking did their job correct
on the other side I have flanked mak phalanxes with Spartans on several occasions and they never did the drop pike thing

It's a buggy formation, especially in a city/settlement.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.

This is great because when an enemy (solduros, for example) close in against the flank of the phalanks it´s realistic that those soldiers that are being attacked switch to sword and try to defend themselves. It will mean a lot in terms of strategical gameplay since the phalanks will retain it´s superiority in an even terrain when fully formed but it will point it´s weakness against flank attacks. We must remember that the phalanks is a dreadful force when fighting as single impregnable unit but there´re not a match individually. And now that they can´t reform when flanked the balnce of the game will be much better. Every Strategos will konw that being flanked is almost their doom as well as the other general will konw that flank is almost mandatory.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I also think that the phalanges in EB are too strong.

it is impossible that a phalanx ga remain strong on uneven terrain or uphill.

In ancient Greece, where a phalanx ever fought, the armies are more or less compared with the same method of fighting were still on training hard almost motionless in front of each other.
The battles were very static and was won by those who break the first line enemy.

But the phalanx is not designed for combat infantrymen in possession of large shields.
With them is easy wedge between the long and unwieldy phalanx of spades. That's why the Romans were literally DRUNK the Macedonians during the Macedonian wars.
In addition, the units of each finger were not on his own as did cohorts or manipulate, but all remained united in compact (easy to circumvent).

Just then the phalanges making less offensive against infantry with large shield.

[mikil100]

Large shield or not, you are moving through a forest of spears.. making you clumsy as well.

I think the EB team does a good job mentioning how it was not the Phalanx that was faulty, just the commanders using it. The whole point of the phalanx was to pin the enemy down so cavalry could wheel around and smash the enemy. Granted with the TW engines phalanxes are OP'ed.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

I also think that the phalanges in EB are too strong.

it is impossible that a phalanx ga remain strong on uneven terrain or uphill.

In ancient Greece, where a phalanx ever fought, the armies are more or less compared with the same method of fighting were still on training hard almost motionless in front of each other.
The battles were very static and was won by those who break the first line enemy.

But the phalanx is not designed for combat infantrymen in possession of large shields.
With them is easy wedge between the long and unwieldy phalanx of spades. That's why the Romans were literally DRUNK the Macedonians during the Macedonian wars.
In addition, the units of each finger were not on his own as did cohorts or manipulate, but all remained united in compact (easy to circumvent).

Just then the phalanges making less offensive against infantry with large shield.

I´m not sure if this is the way to go since Polybius and other historians tell us that the sarissa could smash trough shields and armor. In fact a charging phalanks is almost impossible to stop, at first. For instance, take the poybius legions to each legionaire there´re 10 sarissa pointed towards him. Therefore, i think it´s a good and realistic solution the one that EB II will use. Make the phalanks switch to sword and try to defende themselves when charged in the flank or rear.

[Phalanx300]

I agee, that would be great. As long as it stays with individual soldiers only switching to swords when outflanked that is, otherwise it would be even more annoying then the entire formation switching .

[Cute Wolf]

are they going to add the 2 handed swordsmen units that especially created to smash the pike formations from the front? the Casse Champions are too far from any hellenist faction...

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

are they going to add the 2 handed swordsmen units that especially created to smash the pike formations from the front? the Casse Champions are too far from any hellenist faction...

How do they (2 handed swordsmen ) work? Little armor, mobility to avoid the pikes?
THx

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I still think that the phalanx is too strong in EB.

Also maintain a phalanx formation is extremely difficult for the soldiers.
Fatigue forces opliti to fall apart the ranks making the phalanx rather exposed to the attacks of heavy infantry.

An example is the battle of Pidna (Macedonians vs Romans), in which the Romans lost only 1,000 men against the 20,000 Macedonians losses.

The phalanx is hard to hold, much of the testudo. All the great generals of history have understood the importance of taking second or third line fresh, from Hannibal to Ezio ...

If you want to learn the classical battle of phalanges sought "phalanx oblique"