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Thread: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

  1. #31
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    Hahaha!
    Anyway, I know that this is an awful thing to say but wouldn't the world be better without parents struggling to bring up children who lack the ability to live in this world?
    I agree with Big John, this IS a sensible question and probably the question the parents ask themselves before making a choice.

    I do not know how I would choose if I were to find out my unborn child were to have a serious defect. But I do know that I would not make it illegal for someone else to make a choice. I consider the ability to control a family’s direction one of the greatest freedoms and taking that away with law is a blatant raping of the idea of freedom.

    If someone feels so passionately about “life” then they should encourage people struggling with the decision by supporting them and offering to be there for them. It is too easy to arm-chair quarterback the decision while not taking any responsibility for the decision you have forced someone to make.

    If YOU want someone to have their defect baby then YOU should offer to be there to help them raise that baby, if YOU are not going to be there then YOU don’t have any say in the decision.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TevashSzat View Post
    Well, you must think about how difficult it would be for parents to have a child with downs syndrome.

    I am ambivalent towards eugenics. I see what it must be used at one point in the future, but I see no reason why it should be practiced now.

    Basically, humans have stopped or at least hindered natural selection from occuring to the human species. As a result, the human gene pool will continually worsen as the centuries (more likely millenias) progress. While it would be inhumane now to euthanize those with severe genetically inherited diseases, think about this: Would you want at some very very distant point in the future to have a human population where maybe 50% of the people born have some sever condition that greatly hinders their ability to contribute to society.
    You don't understand evolution. Whatever lives and breeds, lives and breeds.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Eugenics is just a politically loaded term, used to make abortion look like a nazi practise. Creating a healthy master race is not foremost in the thought of parents who are faced with the difficult decision of what to do once Down's syndrome has been diagnosed.


    Here's a thought experiment:

    Few people with Down's syndrome are capable of independently engaging in pretty much anything. They are certainly not capable of independently engaging in sexual affairs.
    Are you in favour of actively enabling them to engage in sexual acts and in helping them procreate? If not, why are you engaging in eugenitic practices in this way? Are they lesser people, who should be discouraged from procreating?



    *The controversial stuff to aid disagreement:*
    Of course, in the West, it are in fact Christians who engage in horrific eugenic practises by stripping the mentally ill from their right to sex. Easy victims for their perennial anti-sex crusade. Especially the many, many mentally ill who have been put in the care of Christian institutions over the centuries, and who have been, and are, brutally, often physically, prevented from ever in their lives engaging in even the most innocent of physical sexual activity. This is one of the many crimes of Christianity.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 09-11-2008 at 15:00.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Genocide is just a loaded term...

    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice? What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.

    Some say that their may be a God gene. Should parents select out those who have it? Those who do not? The question can apply to everything.

    In fact, why are their limits on abortion at all? Why can't we just do it until the day the child is born? Why not after? Humans used to leave babies to die on mountain tops - bash their heads against trees. Maybe personhood isn't even important to consider in the act of killing another.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-11-2008 at 15:47.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Few people with Down's syndrome are capable of independently engaging in pretty much anything. They are certainly not capable of independently engaging in sexual affairs.
    Hmmm I thought we all agreed that a boat with people with down-syndrome on the gay parade was the greatest thing ever.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Any couple might get a child with Down's. there are determining factors, but most are either statistical odds (nuchal scan, mother's age etc etc), or getting the data is a risk (chorionic villi sampling / amniocentesis) and can lead to a miscarriage.

    Any child with me as a father has enough problems without adding a known genetic disease to the mix. I'm only going to get 2 and maximally 4 chances at this, so there's no room for known mishaps.

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Genocide is just a loaded term...

    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice?
    yes it´s their choice, and btw if a gay gene were to be found it would mean that being gay would officially be recognized as a genetic defect right?....at least I think it should be under those circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.
    It it´s the mother's choice...it´s her choice....if you mean state mandated sex selection like the Chinese case I don´t think that´s right for the simple reason that the state is infringing on the rights of the individual.


    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Some say that their may be a God gene. Should parents select out those who have it? Those who do not? The question can apply to everything.
    never heard about this? what is this? a made-up gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    In fact, why are their limits on abortion at all? Why can't we just do it until the day the child is born? Why not after? Humans used to leave babies to die on mountain tops - bash their heads against trees. Maybe personhood isn't even important to consider in the act of killing another.
    I take the consideration that from the point where the fetus can survive on the outside world without being biologically connected to the mother it has personal rights.....
    before that it only exists because the mother is sustaining it so she has the right to terminate that life....no matter if we find that choice agreeable or not...it´s no business of ours anyway.
    Last edited by Ronin; 09-11-2008 at 16:12. Reason: error in quote tabs
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    But from probably 30 weeks a foetus can survive outside the mother with no more input than a child born at 40 weeks.

    There are loads of defects, from poor eyesight to pattern baldness. Odds are that there is a set of genes that can be linked to being gay. I am sure there will be some that choose to abort based upon the information.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #39
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    As always, I side with the humans. And since I don't consider a fetus a human in any way or form, this is a non-issue for me.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #40

    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Hmmm I thought we all agreed that a boat with people with down-syndrome on the gay parade was the greatest thing ever.

    No Frag its just that people didn't share your view that disabled poofs being in a parade was disgraceful anymore than they shared your view that allowing the children of poofs to participate in the parade was equal to promoting child sex abuse .

  11. #41
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Here's a thought experiment:

    Few people with Down's syndrome are capable of independently engaging in pretty much anything. They are certainly not capable of independently engaging in sexual affairs.
    Are you in favour of actively enabling them to engage in sexual acts and in helping them procreate? If not, why are you engaging in eugenitic practices in this way? Are they lesser people, who should be discouraged from procreating?
    Here's a little problem. I read up on Down's syndrome last night. Infertility among them is like 90% for men and 70%-80% for women. And if they are the ones who have high enough functioning they can engage in sexual affairs on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice? What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.
    Actually it can very well be. The only Down's persons we tend to see are the high function ones who can be trotted out for people "ou'n'aw" over. You know be a greeter at Wally-world, clean toilets, or dig ditches. How many persons with Down's have you met? I've met two I can clearly recall. Of that stupidly small sample 50% were completely and totally incapable of caring for themselfs. And would have been better off aborted.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Genocide is just a loaded term...

    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice? What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.

    Some say that their may be a God gene. Should parents select out those who have it? Those who do not? The question can apply to everything.

    In fact, why are their limits on abortion at all? Why can't we just do it until the day the child is born? Why not after? Humans used to leave babies to die on mountain tops - bash their heads against trees. Maybe personhood isn't even important to consider in the act of killing another.
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi View Post
    I agree with Big John, this IS a sensible question and probably the question the parents ask themselves before making a choice.

    I do not know how I would choose if I were to find out my unborn child were to have a serious defect. But I do know that I would not make it illegal for someone else to make a choice. I consider the ability to control a family’s direction one of the greatest freedoms and taking that away with law is a blatant raping of the idea of freedom.

    If someone feels so passionately about “life” then they should encourage people struggling with the decision by supporting them and offering to be there for them. It is too easy to arm-chair quarterback the decision while not taking any responsibility for the decision you have forced someone to make.

    If YOU want someone to have their defect baby then YOU should offer to be there to help them raise that baby, if YOU are not going to be there then YOU don’t have any say in the decision.
    And this is where the "rubber" of ideology meets the "reality" of the road. Raising normal & healthy children is difficult enough. Raising those with such a handicap as DS can be beyond some parents capabilities and desires. It's a private and personal matter, and I would not/ could not judge any parent for making that choice.
    Well said yesdachi.
    Last edited by Hosakawa Tito; 09-11-2008 at 18:17.
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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Just to chime in here- I think in vitro fertilization is morally wrong for more or less the reasons you give. They fertilize a bunch of eggs, use a few and discard the rest.
    I'm pretty certain that those born through in vitro fertilization prefer to be alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice? What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.

    Some say that their may be a God gene. Should parents select out those who have it? Those who do not? The question can apply to everything.
    Personally I wouldn't like it and would like to see a societal pressure against it, but I wouldn't forbid it, as the law would be useless and still too dominant in practice.

    Now it's your turn, if the parents could avoid it before it even came to the fertilised egg, would your opinion change on any of the matters? Would you still maintain "life is sacred" if the child would be born in constant terrible pain and die after a few years?
    Would any of your oppinions change if the embryo could be genetically "fixed"?
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-11-2008 at 18:45.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Actually it can very well be. The only Down's persons we tend to see are the high function ones who can be trotted out for people "ou'n'aw" over. You know be a greeter at Wally-world, clean toilets, or dig ditches. How many persons with Down's have you met? I've met two I can clearly recall. Of that stupidly small sample 50% were completely and totally incapable of caring for themselfs. And would have been better off aborted.
    Actually it is people with views like that who form their opinions from meeting two people who might be better off aborted .

  16. #46
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Would any of your oppinions change if the embryo could be genetically "fixed"?
    It's not fixing it is eleminating. And if a child is born terminalliy ill it should be possible to skip the hard parts like we do here but that is something different, this isn't about pro-life it's about what deserves a chance, when we judge it by our standards it's projection and that is simply not fair.

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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    First Off, Don't Have Sex. If it is figured out that your kid might geneticly get Down Sysndome, then don't have Sex, plain and simple. If you go ahead with it and your kid turns up with it, Then Why Abort? If you want to take care of it, great! But If Not, then put it up for adoption. Let them worry about the kid. No Sense of killing it.

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Actually it is people with views like that who form their opinions from meeting two people who might be better off aborted .
    I went to a high school where they shipped many of the special needs students in the county. I've been around special needs persons. Some can function, with some assitance, on their own. Some can't. And won't ever be more than a 3 yearold. They should have been aborted.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Some can function, with some assitance, on their own. Some can't. And won't ever be more than a 3 yearold. They should have been aborted.
    A three year old can still enjoy life.

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Not on their own and that's the problem.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Not on their own and that's the problem.
    So? There are people to take care of them. They can live, so let them live. Abortion for the sake of eugenics, especially, is a long and dirty path.

  22. #52
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by |Sith|3|AntiWarmanCake88 Toyosada88 View Post
    If you go ahead with it and your kid turns up with it, Then Why Abort? If you want to take care of it, great! But If Not, then put it up for adoption. Let them worry about the kid. No Sense of killing it.
    How dare you be so reasonable! For all the talk of Christian's and indeed any pro-lifers having only an idiological basis in their belief, it appears this is the case with just as many pro-choice supporters.

    If someone does not see an unborn baby as a human being, then I will strongly disagree with them but I can understand their views.

    But I cannot understand the whole "baby infringing on the mother's rights" line. So legal technicalities regarding human rights must overcome any sort of sense or compromise? In the end, the mother has to be pregnant for nine months. And for that, the baby (which didn't ask to be inside her in the first place) can live a happy, full life. I'm pretty sure it would prefer living in a foster home to dying before ever seeing the light of day.

    I've seen a few people with Down's Syndrome, including one I used to see at the place I work a bit. I can't honestly say I know how much it affects people on average and the extent of variation between cases, but it seems to me that they are nonetheless pretty glad to be alive, and contribute a lot more to society that many more 'healthy' people do.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 09-12-2008 at 00:19.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    I went to a high school where they shipped many of the special needs students in the county. I've been around special needs persons. Some can function, with some assitance, on their own. Some can't. And won't ever be more than a 3 yearold. They should have been aborted.
    A simple question for you then Lars .
    These "some" that you refer to , at what stage of the pregnancy is it possible to accurately determine the full effects of any defects or disorders that may have been detected ?

  24. #54
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    I take the consideration that from the point where the fetus can survive on the outside world without being biologically connected to the mother it has personal rights.....
    before that it only exists because the mother is sustaining it so she has the right to terminate that life....no matter if we find that choice agreeable or not...it´s no business of ours anyway.
    In that case, I doubt a child can survive without help from adults or older children until it is at least three or four. By your logic, since a human is sustaining a two year old child, it should be their right to kill it. Sorry, but that argument doesn't ring with me.

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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I think you are correct in your approach to the problem. Just because you don't like something or don't agree with the morality of something - doesn't mean you have to make it law.

    I think abortion of any sort should be an option. It's up to people to make their own moral (or immoral) decisions.

    The Downs Syndrome thing isn't really eugenics - as it isn't a trait that only some people pass on, just a chromasomal abnormality that all humans can reproduce in certain circumstances. Also there is the point that people with downs syndrome may well have an advantage if environment changed. Evolution doesn't have a goal - it merely plods onward.
    Strangely enough, I'm in the camp with Idaho and Strike it seems. My wife would never have an abortion and I wouldn't want her to. Its our choice as a family not to practice this, in our opinion, killing of a human being. I don't like abortion and am against it personally, but that's it; its personal. I use to be all for abortion to be overturned in my country, but honestly, I could care less anymore. The more I look around at today's "parents" or "parent" in many cases, a quick little chop and chop and suck doesn't get me all riled up anymore. We should be responsible for our lives and hope that the day won't come that abortions are not choice but FORCE.
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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Huh... somehow I'm on the same page too... Idaho by god you could unite the world.

  27. #57

    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    The anti-abortion arguement insists that life begins when it scientifically begins and deserves protection; the right to life. The pro-abortion arguement insists that a person isn't an individual or guaranteed rights based on location, size, arbitrary timing, necessity of help, genetic defect and physical proximity to the mother; preserving physical sovereignty over the right to life of the defenseless.
    Scientifically life does not begin at conception, but continues. Sperm cells are alive, as are Ovum.

    Since a young fetus is total dependent on its mother it is not an individual.
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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    In that case, I doubt a child can survive without help from adults or older children until it is at least three or four. By your logic, since a human is sustaining a two year old child, it should be their right to kill it. Sorry, but that argument doesn't ring with me.
    In my post I specifically said "biologically connected" despite the fact that you ignored it to try and make a point........anyone can raise a child after it´s born...only the mother can bring it to term....on the final aspect if she decides she doesn´t want her body to be part of the process you can´t force her.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    In my post I specifically said "biologically connected" despite the fact that you ignored it to try and make a point........anyone can raise a child after it´s born...only the mother can bring it to term....on the final aspect if she decides she doesn´t want her body to be part of the process you can´t force her.
    If she doesn't want her body to become part of the process, she shouldn't get pregnant. Abortion is not birth control.

  30. #60
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    If she doesn't want her body to become part of the process, she shouldn't get pregnant. Abortion is not birth control.
    I didn´t say it was...

    and it´s not for me to say who should be getting pregnant or not...
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

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